Current Events > Games as art, interactive movie games, and how game design can elevate

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butthole666 11/14/19 4:53:13 PM #1:	the medium to art Things like Detroit: Become Bored and Telltale games; these are works that do nothing to embrace the strengths of their medium, opting instead to minimize its most defining characteristics in favor of a poor imitation of a different medium. The writing in such games is often meandering, and the cinematic aspects subpar. Writing-focused games can be excellent and can be a valuable argument for games as art... if the writers are not wannabe film makers. The writing should emphasize interactivity, the ability of players to alter the narrative, the world, and their relationships with characters. Classic CRPGs laid a fantastic groundwork for narrative and character driven game design that allowed players to mold their experience and emphasized the interactive nature of games. The Witcher 3 is arguably the best-written game of the decade; it has no fantasy of being a film, it emphasizes the players role in its narrative and in the lives of its characters, and it bears no pretentious assumption that in order to be art a game must pretend its not a game. Atmosphere, mood, and immersion are another major component that can be bolstered by the interactivity of games. From major design components, to subtle production details that emphasize and strengthen emotional responses the player will have to the world around them, or that place emphasis on what they player is doing and how they are doing it. Things like the color palette used in creating a game to control the mood and tone of its world, or the ways a player is or is not able to manipulate the world, or a stem-based score that will react in real time to the player. These elements at their core do not seem far off from the same production decisions in other mediums, but when a game is able to highlight the aspect of player interaction with such details, it is setting itself squarely within its own medium and standing in its own world of artistic expression, rather than relying on the methods of other media. Red Dead Redemption is a fantastic example of such design, with its stem-based score designed to accompany whatever the player may be doing, and to coax a specific emotional response out of the player as a result of that action. Simply walking out in the wild, unaccompanied by music, could easily be construed as relaxing, serene, and peaceful, however the score of the game during these moments is fairly sparse. Youll hear eerie, distant trumpets swell up periodically, low bell tone from time to time, the rare stab of menacing, distorted electric guitar to remind you of the dangers present in this world, and all in a minor key. The effect is somber, lonely, vaguely unsettling and never quite at peace, perfectly reflecting the mindset of John Marston and conveying to the player how he feels being led on indefinitely in what increasingly seems a vain attempt to reunite with his family. Then, there is just raw gameplay. The core mechanics of a game, being crafted carefully to elicit an emotional response from the player, or to make them subconsciously aware of, and get them thinking about, the games core message, theme, or statement. This is a domain Nintendo and a number of indie developers have perfected. The floaty, free movement and acrobatics of Mario in Odyssey (or 64, if thats your jam) create this pure joy in the player, an absolute sense of freedom within the world presented to you. The levels pale in comparison to massive open worlds, and yet the sense of exploration and joyous discovery is unparalleled, as you view that seemingly insurmountable structure in the distance and set out to conquer it. The tension and anxiety created in the brutal, unforgiving level design of Celeste, and the at times discouraging failure rate, aligning perfectly with the games core themes, and the triumphant feeling of finally succeeding against the challenge, and growing slowly more confident and determined even as the difficulty ramps up, mirroring Madelines own arc in overcoming her struggles with mental illness. --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930139175] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>the medium to art Things like Detroit: Become Bored and Telltale games; these are works that do nothing to embrace the strengths of their medium, opting instead to minimize its most defining characteristics in favor of a poor imitation of a different medium. The writing in such games is often meandering, and the cinematic aspects subpar. Writing-focused games can be excellent and can be a valuable argument for games as art... if the writers are not wannabe film makers. The writing should emphasize interactivity, the ability of players to alter the narrative, the world, and their relationships with characters. Classic CRPGs laid a fantastic groundwork for narrative and character driven game design that allowed players to mold their experience and emphasized the interactive nature of games. The Witcher 3 is arguably the best-written game of the decade; it has no fantasy of being a film, it emphasizes the players role in its narrative and in the lives of its characters, and it bears no pretentious assumption that in order to be art a game must pretend its not a game. Atmosphere, mood, and immersion are another major component that can be bolstered by the interactivity of games. From major design components, to subtle production details that emphasize and strengthen emotional responses the player will have to the world around them, or that place emphasis on what they player is doing and how they are doing it. Things like the color palette used in creating a game to control the mood and tone of its world, or the ways a player is or is not able to manipulate the world, or a stem-based score that will react in real time to the player. These elements at their core do not seem far off from the same production decisions in other mediums, but when a game is able to highlight the aspect of player interaction with such details, it is setting itself squarely within its own medium and standing in its own world of artistic expression, rather than relying on the methods of other media. Red Dead Redemption is a fantastic example of such design, with its stem-based score designed to accompany whatever the player may be doing, and to coax a specific emotional response out of the player as a result of that action. Simply walking out in the wild, unaccompanied by music, could easily be construed as relaxing, serene, and peaceful, however the score of the game during these moments is fairly sparse. Youll hear eerie, distant trumpets swell up periodically, low bell tone from time to time, the rare stab of menacing, distorted electric guitar to remind you of the dangers present in this world, and all in a minor key. The effect is somber, lonely, vaguely unsettling and never quite at peace, perfectly reflecting the mindset of John Marston and conveying to the player how he feels being led on indefinitely in what increasingly seems a vain attempt to reunite with his family. Then, there is just raw gameplay. The core mechanics of a game, being crafted carefully to elicit an emotional response from the player, or to make them subconsciously aware of, and get them thinking about, the games core message, theme, or statement. This is a domain Nintendo and a number of indie developers have perfected. The floaty, free movement and acrobatics of Mario in Odyssey (or 64, if thats your jam) create this pure joy in the player, an absolute sense of freedom within the world presented to you. The levels pale in comparison to massive open worlds, and yet the sense of exploration and joyous discovery is unparalleled, as you view that seemingly insurmountable structure in the distance and set out to conquer it. The tension and anxiety created in the brutal, unforgiving level design of Celeste, and the at times discouraging failure rate, aligning perfectly with the games core themes, and the triumphant feeling of finally succeeding against the challenge, and growing slowly more confident and determined even as the difficulty ramps up, mirroring Madelines own arc in overcoming her struggles with mental illness.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/14/19 4:55:02 PM #2:	That is how you use the medium of video games to create a true work of art; by playing to its strengths, and playing into the total control and total freedom it allows both the creator and the audience. Mimicry of another medium is a weak, limp interpretation of what video games are truly capable of as a tool for artistic expression. --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930139271] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>That is how you use the medium of video games to create a true work of art; by playing to its strengths, and playing into the total control and total freedom it allows both the creator and the audience. Mimicry of another medium is a weak, limp interpretation of what video games are truly capable of as a tool for artistic expression.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/14/19 4:59:19 PM #3:	I wrote this totally stream of conscious and did not proofread or revise it very much so sorry if its a trainwreck and sorry if its uninteresting babbling nothing. Its a topic I think about constantly and something that I have an insatiable interest in (production and design footage and documentaries of games can eat up hours of my time and are my biggest inspiration artistically), and Ive wanted for a long time to really sit down and hammer out my thoughts on it/write some kind of essay on it for fun. Id like to do a more well put together iteration of this eventually, but I probably will not because I am lazy and this is just shitposting on gamefaqs and my thoughts do not matter. --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930139465] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>I wrote this totally stream of conscious and did not proofread or revise it very much so sorry if its a trainwreck and sorry if its uninteresting babbling nothing. Its a topic I think about constantly and something that I have an insatiable interest in (production and design footage and documentaries of games can eat up hours of my time and are my biggest inspiration artistically), and Ive wanted for a long time to really sit down and hammer out my thoughts on it/write some kind of essay on it for fun. Id like to do a more well put together iteration of this eventually, but I probably will not because I am lazy and this is just shitposting on gamefaqs and my thoughts do not matter.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
p-m 11/14/19 5:11:59 PM #4:	This is a good topic, I'm not sure if I have anything to say myself but that was worth reading <cite>p-m posted [p:930140038] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>This is a good topic, I'm not sure if I have anything to say myself but that was worth reading</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 11/14/19 5:18:21 PM #5:	I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:930140328] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsBro 11/14/19 5:22:13 PM #6:	Just by the nature of art, you really can't call a work unartistic. Even if it's a video game "pretending to be a movie", that's still a decision driven by artistic expression. --- 53 LIII 0b110101 p16 0x35 <cite>DevsBro posted [p:930140496] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Just by the nature of art, you really can't call a work unartistic. Even if it's a video game "pretending to be a movie", that's still a decision driven by artistic expression. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/14/19 5:23:33 PM #7:	Darmik posted... I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story. The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made. --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930140557] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story.</quote> The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Malfunction 11/14/19 5:23:54 PM #8:	p-m posted... This is a good topic, I'm not sure if I have anything to say myself but that was worth reading <cite>Malfunction posted [p:930140571] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>p-m posted...</cite> <quote>This is a good topic, I'm not sure if I have anything to say myself but that was worth reading</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 11/14/19 5:26:26 PM #9:	butthole666 posted... Darmik posted... I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story. The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made. I think that depends on the player. Choosing dialogue choices and making those choices yourself is a different experience than watching someone else make them. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:930140682] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>butthole666 posted...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story.</quote> The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made.</quote> I think that depends on the player. Choosing dialogue choices and making those choices yourself is a different experience than watching someone else make them.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/14/19 5:27:45 PM #10:	DevsBro posted... Just by the nature of art, you really can't call a work unartistic. You can get into some deep shit debating the difference between art and product, product as art, and so on. Im not particularly well-versed in any of that, nor does that aspect of academic analysis of art really interest me. For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced by its being a video game. --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930140748] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>DevsBro posted...</cite> <quote>Just by the nature of art, you really can't call a work unartistic. </quote> You can get into some deep shit debating the difference between art and product, product as art, and so on. Im not particularly well-versed in any of that, nor does that aspect of academic analysis of art really interest me. For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced by its being a video game.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
LightningAce11 11/14/19 5:29:00 PM #11:	Games are inherently art because of what goes into making them. Whether they are "avant garde artistic" is another matter. --- https://i.imgtc.ws/nDVyBfn.gif <cite>LightningAce11 posted [p:930140809] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Games are inherently art because of what goes into making them. Whether they are "avant garde artistic" is another matter.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
SiO4 11/14/19 5:29:59 PM #12:	I always thought Sega was as much an art studio as a gaming company. Unfortunately that tack did not pay out in the long run. --- "Whatever the reason you're on Mars, I'm glad you're there, and I wish I was with you." ~Carl Sagan. Currently playing: Flight Simulator X.~PC <cite>SiO4 posted [p:930140844] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>I always thought Sega was as much an art studio as a gaming company. Unfortunately that tack did not pay out in the long run. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Malfunction 11/14/19 5:30:20 PM #13:	Darmik posted... butthole666 posted... Darmik posted... I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story. The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made. I think that depends on the player. Choosing dialogue choices and making those choices yourself is a different experience than watching someone else make them. i don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums. <cite>Malfunction posted [p:930140852] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>butthole666 posted...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>I think you're not giving enough credit to how a game like Detroit: Become Human gives you a ridiculous amount of branches in the narrative. You can't do that in a movie or live action TV episode. My experience of that game was drastically different to what happened in my wife's playthrough. I'm not saying every game manages it well. It's always going to be an illusion to an extent. The genre still doesn't have all that many games but there's still improvement every year or so like any other genre starting off. But I think it's still a unique thing only video games can provide and worth pursuing. My wife isn't interested in RPG's and she never will be. Some people do just like making decisions in a story.</quote> The branching narratives have merit and are a valuable contribution to game design, but ultimately the effect is a game that feels almost identical to watch as it does to play, and an often limited number of final outcomes calls into question the actual significance of all those choices you made.</quote> I think that depends on the player. Choosing dialogue choices and making those choices yourself is a different experience than watching someone else make them.</quote> i don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 11/14/19 5:30:51 PM #14:	butthole666 posted... For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced via its being a video game. Is Life is Strange art in your eyes? I mean one of the big moments in that game is when it specifically takes away a rewind function from the player. It's a smart way to use a simple gameplay mechanic to create a significantly tenser moment for the player. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:930140881] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>butthole666 posted...</cite> <quote> For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced via its being a video game.</quote> Is Life is Strange art in your eyes? I mean one of the big moments in that game is when it specifically takes away a rewind function from the player. It's a smart way to use a simple gameplay mechanic to create a significantly tenser moment for the player.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
DevsBro 11/14/19 5:39:31 PM #15:	butthole666 posted... For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced by its being a video game. I'm a fan of this myself but it's a pretty narrow definition. --- 53 LIII 0b110101 p16 0x35 <cite>DevsBro posted [p:930141250] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>butthole666 posted... </cite> <quote>For the sake of this thread, a game that is art is one that takes the most unique characteristics of the medium and uses them to create something transcendent, something that gives the player an emotional response or coaxes them to think critically about its themes via mechanisms unique to or enhanced by its being a video game.</quote> I'm a fan of this myself but it's a pretty narrow definition. </quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 11/14/19 5:40:05 PM #16:	Malfunction posted... don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums. I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:930141285] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Malfunction posted...</cite> <quote>don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums.</quote> I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Jabodie 11/14/19 5:51:57 PM #17:	Darmik posted... I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream. Tbh, I don't really see why this is unique to game design compared to CYOAs or "interactive" streaming content. The extent of the branching paths to Detroid may have been more extensive than most other stories before it (tbh, I'm not even sure that's true since I don't read CYOAs). You could probably argue that CYOA and interactive streaming content themselves are games, which would be a pretty reasonable position I guess. Personally, I get really bored playing branching story games. I actually prefer watching LPs. Detroit, Until Dawn, LiS, etc. I enjoy a lot more as watching than playing experiences. But that has more to do with the fact that there is limited engagement in the moment to moment gameplay. I also feel that story and theme analysis in these sorts of games needs to be analyzed in the context of all possible choices. --- <insert sig here> <cite>Jabodie posted [p:930141838] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream.</quote> Tbh, I don't really see why this is unique to game design compared to CYOAs or "interactive" streaming content. The extent of the branching paths to Detroid may have been more extensive than most other stories before it (tbh, I'm not even sure that's true since I don't read CYOAs). You could probably argue that CYOA and interactive streaming content themselves are games, which would be a pretty reasonable position I guess. Personally, I get really bored playing branching story games. I actually prefer watching LPs. Detroit, Until Dawn, LiS, etc. I enjoy a lot more as watching than playing experiences. But that has more to do with the fact that there is limited engagement in the moment to moment gameplay. I also feel that story and theme analysis in these sorts of games needs to be analyzed in the context of all possible choices.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Malfunction 11/14/19 6:06:07 PM #18:	Darmik posted... Malfunction posted... don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums. I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream. fwiw I don't necessarily agree entirely with the premise of the OP and I don't really have anything against those sort of games. that said, I do think that people have a tendency to herald games like that as being more inherently cinematic or 'artistic' when, as is pointed out in the OP, games which actually fully immerse themselves in the traditional framework of a 'video game' have just as much if not more going for them in the same department and aren't reliant on for the most part elements of other mediums to do so. <cite>Malfunction posted [p:930142503] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Darmik posted...</cite> <quote>Malfunction posted...</cite> <quote>don't think that disproves the point being made in the OP though. yes, they involve a greater degree of viewer interaction but much of their value otherwise is derived from the aping of the most obvious elements of other mediums.</quote> I completely disagree. The value is from giving the power to the player. I'll go into Detroit again since that's used as your negative example. One of the stories in that game is escaping America with a little girl. There are several tense scenes in the game and you are told that you can die. And indeed you can throughout several parts of the game. You don't restart (unless you save scum) the story continues on without those characters. I got a happy ending with those characters. The final scenes were incredibly difficult and intense thanks to the decisions I made. When I saw where I landed on the final branches I saw how many different ways it could have progressed. Even in those final moments I could have made the wrong decision and got a sad ending. It felt like a massive relief when I managed to avoid that. My wife didn't manage to get a happy ending. Her climactic scenes for those characters were significantly different but she failed. If she succeeded there she could have got a happy ending in a completely different location because of how she guided their story. You cannot get that experience from TV or watching a stream.</quote> fwiw I don't necessarily agree entirely with the premise of the OP and I don't really have anything against those sort of games. that said, I do think that people have a tendency to herald games like that as being more inherently cinematic or 'artistic' when, as is pointed out in the OP, games which actually fully immerse themselves in the traditional framework of a 'video game' have just as much if not more going for them in the same department and aren't reliant on for the most part elements of other mediums to do so.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Darmik 11/14/19 6:23:10 PM #19:	Jabodie posted... Tbh, I don't really see why this is unique to game design compared to CYOAs or "interactive" streaming content. The extent of the branching paths to Detroid may have been more extensive than most other stories before it (tbh, I'm not even sure that's true since I don't read CYOAs). You could probably argue that CYOA and interactive streaming content themselves are games, which would be a pretty reasonable position I guess. Choices in streaming content are limited due to their medium. You can't choose where a character walks. You can't make dialogue choices. There basically needs to be pause in the show to allow the viewer to make a choice. They have to be limited to what you can do with a TV remote. Which is typically just Choice A or Choice B. I think Bandersnatch shows how limited this format can be compared to a narrative based video game. Perhaps something like Stadia can bridge the gap but we're not really there yet. --- Kind Regards, Darmik <cite>Darmik posted [p:930143278] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Jabodie posted...</cite> <quote>Tbh, I don't really see why this is unique to game design compared to CYOAs or "interactive" streaming content. The extent of the branching paths to Detroid may have been more extensive than most other stories before it (tbh, I'm not even sure that's true since I don't read CYOAs). You could probably argue that CYOA and interactive streaming content themselves are games, which would be a pretty reasonable position I guess. </quote> Choices in streaming content are limited due to their medium. You can't choose where a character walks. You can't make dialogue choices. There basically needs to be pause in the show to allow the viewer to make a choice. They have to be limited to what you can do with a TV remote. Which is typically just Choice A or Choice B. I think Bandersnatch shows how limited this format can be compared to a narrative based video game. Perhaps something like Stadia can bridge the gap but we're not really there yet.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/14/19 8:55:22 PM #20:	Bump so i dont forget to respond to yous all l8r --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930150176] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>Bump so i dont forget to respond to yous all l8r</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
butthole666 11/16/19 3:41:11 PM #21:	butthole666 posted... Bump so i dont forget to respond to yous all l8r --- "Kenan & Kel is what made me realize I wasn't racist." ~ NewportBox100s <cite>butthole666 posted [p:930228845] in Games as a... [t:78160604]...</cite> <quote>butthole666 posted...</cite> <quote>Bump so i dont forget to respond to yous all l8r</quote></quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Games as art, interactive movie games, and how game design can elevate (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Games as art, interactive movie games, and how game design can elevate