Current Events > Does the existence of multi billionaires make sense?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I'd argue that it doesn't. This topic was inspired by Bloomberg and Bill Gates recent statements and actions and a reddit post tbh. The post calculated that even if you worked full time, making 2k an hour, with no expenses at all, since the birth of Jesus Christ, that would be 8.4 billion. Gates, Bloomberg, Bezos, all of them are worth several times that. For the average American worker working full time with no expenses, it would take 10x longer than homo sapiens have even existed to amass what Bezos has.

By what rational metric does this make sense? How can one human being work that much harder than another? What kind of idea or innovation could possibly justify that disparity? And when a society that gave individuals the ability to amass that much wealth could solve a lot of social ills by taking a fraction of it, why should then not do that?

It seems like our society's system of compensation and valuation is fundamentally broken when something like this can happen. There are people on this planet dying in the dirt for lack of money while this is going on. There are people in America freezing in the cold and suffering from treatable medical conditions for lack of money while this goes on.

Seems bad to me.
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It makes perfect sense.
People would rather put their money towards ordering products online and having it in their house the next day than solve world hunger. That's not just on Bezos and his peers. That's on everyone.
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everything you mentioned, tc, is an inherent function of capitalism
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Of course it makes sense.

Doesn't make it fair though, or something we should tolerate.
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Yes
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It makes perfect sense

Do you think people who ask this question would be asking this if they themselves were multi millionaires?
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Yes. The accumulation of wealth should not be hard capped. What should be done is the closing of loopholes that allow them to evade taxes and other fees.

a person owns assets, the assets go up in value, the person's net worth increases, and they can use those assets to purchase more etc etc. it's not necessarily what's fair or equal but it's not nonsensical
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Jiek_Fafn posted...

It makes perfect sense.
People would rather put their money towards ordering products online and having it in their house the next day than solve world hunger. That's not just on Bezos and his peers. That's on everyone.

It's not automatic that us all being consumers would lead to Bezos having that much. We could have a system where all that value was given back to workers or taxed or invested in the community. This distribution is the result of conscious choices. What's on us is accepting this distribution. We could have a system where he keeps 130 million instead of 130 billion and still have Amazon.

averagejoel posted...

everything you mentioned, tc, is an inherent function of capitalism

I don't think this is true. This level of disparity can be greatly reduced even under a fully capitalist framework. That can be done through social stigma against hoarding, taxation, encouraging worker dividends etc. It's been done before and it is done in other places. That doesn't mean those other systems are justifiable either though, maybe all capitalism is fundamentally unjust, maybe it's the most just system we can achieve, I don't know.
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I think it's immoral to be filthy rich but at the same time it's following status quo. So I think you don't have to be a terrible person to stay filthy rich, but you're definitely not a very good person. To see suffering and be like "eh, Id rather have this slightly newer version of my vehicle instead of help with that". I personally don't think that newer car makes someone happier than helping people while being hands on to enjoy that person enjoying the things you did for them. I think people are just persuaded into thinking it does. That's why all these people with everything tend to kill themselves more often than that person few know who has barely anything but still helps when they can. Then again, you probably wouldn't hear about those people killing themselves if it did happen...so who knows. That's just my theory.

Plus, I can't argue this cause an asshole always has "It's easy to say that when you're not rich!" And they're right in that I can't prove that's not the case, I can only feel it very deeply.

Also, we all spend money on shit we don't need, when it could help someone with something they do need. Im not trying to act holier than thou. These people are just doing it on a much higher level. They could give up a lot less and do a lot more. We pretty much all fail this test, they just took way more tests and kept failing.
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legendary_zell posted...

I don't think this is true. This level of disparity can be greatly reduced even under a fully capitalist framework.

if you mean purely within the context of one capitalist country, then in theory this is partly correct.

however, capitalism fundamentally requires the existence of an underclass to do the work, and it is possible for that underclass to be outsourced to other countries.

That can be done through social stigma against hoarding, taxation, encouraging worker dividends etc.

lol no it can't. billionaires don't care about that. they're sociopaths.

It's been done before and it is done in other places.

still not without the existence of an underclass though.

That doesn't mean those other systems are justifiable either though, maybe all capitalism is fundamentally unjust, maybe it's the most just system we can achieve, I don't know.

it is fundamentally unjust, and it is definitely not the most just system we can achieve.
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There are billions of people in the world if every one of them gave you a single dollar you would be a multi billionaire.
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A man once said that compound interest is the most powerful force in the universe. That mans name...Albert Einstein
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Makes sense to me. I don't get what's confusing to the TC.
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The existence of multi billionaires sort of strains the limits of the idea that "hard work" and "talent" are rewarded in any sort of proportional sense.
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Does anyone actually believe that Jeff Bezos just has his billions of net worth in a moneybin or something?

Also, can someone please shoot down averagejoel's bullshit by reminding him that Castro had a net worth of $900 million when he died? Thanks.
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To answer several of the posts after the ones I just quoted: I understand the mechanisms that allow them to gain that much wealth. The question is whether it makes sense as a measure of value or as a matter of societal functioning. Or even economic efficiency if that's all that matters.

Some people don't have enough and that leads to crime, poor health, poor economic productivity, you name is. Meanwhile, each additional billion for Bezos does little to help him or society, it just concentrates more power in his hands and creates a positive feedback loop. He's getting this money due to some strange definition of "value" that didn't exist until recently.

It just seems like if you were creating a system from scratch, no one would create this system except multi millionaires and Bezos and friends, almost no matter what principles you're starting from. That's what I mean when I say it doesn't make sense.
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Questionmarktarius posted...

Does anyone actually believe that Jeff Bezos just has his billions of net worth in a moneybin or something?

He's using it to play spaceman.
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Why wouldn't it? Let the tall poppies grow.
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Lost_All_Senses posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

Does anyone actually believe that Jeff Bezos just has his billions of net worth in a moneybin or something?

He's using it to play spaceman.

What?
I thought that was Elon Musk, and Richard Garriott.

Mistere Man posted...

There are billions of people in the world if every one of them gave you a single dollar you would be a multi billionaire.

Is this an argument or just a statement? I know which one it is...but Im wondering if you do.
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The economic system wasn't "designed to create billionaires."

It was designed so that people could freely transact with each other, without the government stepping in to tell them what to do, and to have clearly defined property rights so that you don't have to worry that people would just take and steal things from you.

A byproduct of this system is that we have billionaires, because they now have property rights over their business which became many times greater than the product of their own labor
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Lost_All_Senses posted...

Mistere Man posted...

There are billions of people in the world if every one of them gave you a single dollar you would be a multi billionaire.

Is this an argument or just a statement? I know which one it is...but Im wondering if you do.

That's the, uh, Amazon business plan.

Lost_All_Senses posted...

Mistere Man posted...

There are billions of people in the world if every one of them gave you a single dollar you would be a multi billionaire.

Is this an argument or just a statement? I know which one it is...but Im wondering if you do.

Does it matter?

The TC said working full time at 2k an hour since the time of Jesus would be around 8 billion so I was just showing how with so many people it doesnt take much to get to billions.

But to answer your question and if I am wrong I am sorry as my brain isnt the best these days I would say a statement or better an example of why multi billionaires are possible/make sense which was the question being asked at least as I understood it.

Again if I am off or wrong I am sorry my memory is not the best.
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konokonohamaru posted...

The economic system wasn't "designed to create billionaires."

It was designed so that people could freely transact with each other, without the government stepping in to tell them what to do, and to have clearly defined property rights so that you don't have to worry that people would just take and steal things from you.

A byproduct of this system is that we have billionaires, because they now have property rights over their business which became many times greater than the product of their own labor

I didn't say that it was designed to create billionaires. I don't think most people had any type of input on what type of system we have or have seriously thought about it. The vast majority of people throughout human history have lived within whatever system happened to be in place without really considering alternatives. But it seems pretty clear that the system is producing strange outcomes. If the system was truly designed to only be focused on non interference and not with how people actually live and how things are distributed, it's a failure. If it's assumed that unencumbered private transactions would lead to a rational distribution, that assumption is failing too.
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Just do whatever it takes to become rich. You wont become a billionaire but that doesnt mean you cant become a millionaire. Its very possible
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legendary_zell posted...

Some people don't have enough and that leads to crime, poor health, poor economic productivity, you name is. Meanwhile, each additional billion for Bezos does little to help him or society, it just concentrates more power in his hands and creates a positive feedback loop. He's getting this money due to some strange definition of "value" that didn't exist until recently.

You seem to be working under this bizarre logic that Bezos is only taking from the system rather then giving.

So many people are benefiting from Amazon that this makes no sense. He donates huge sums to charity regularly, and him and Bill Gates have money enough to invest in R&D such as green renewable energy, fusion energy technology and so on. This is ignoring himself and his companyz tax contributions.


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People with novel ideas should only do it for the benefit of humanity, not for themselves

Yes, there's many globally recognized products and brands out there.

Prismsblade posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Some people don't have enough and that leads to crime, poor health, poor economic productivity, you name is. Meanwhile, each additional billion for Bezos does little to help him or society, it just concentrates more power in his hands and creates a positive feedback loop. He's getting this money due to some strange definition of "value" that didn't exist until recently.

You seem to be working under this bizarre logic that Bezos is only taking from the system rather then giving.

So many people are benefiting from Amazon that this makes no sense. He donates huge sums to charity regularly, and him and Bill Gates have money enough to invest in R&D such as green renewable energy, fusion energy technology and so on. This is ignoring himself and his companyz tax contributions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWNQuzkSqSM
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Mistere Man posted...

Lost_All_Senses posted...

Mistere Man posted...

There are billions of people in the world if every one of them gave you a single dollar you would be a multi billionaire.

Is this an argument or just a statement? I know which one it is...but Im wondering if you do.

Does it matter?

The TC said working full time at 2k an hour since the time of Jesus would be around 8 billion so I was just showing how with so many people it doesnt take much to get to billions.

But to answer your question and if I am wrong I am sorry as my brain isnt the best these days I would say a statement or better an example of why multi billionaires are possible/make sense which was the question being asked at least as I understood it.

Again if I am off or wrong I am sorry my memory is not the best.

Neh, I get it. I just thought you were leading somewhere else.
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legendary_zell posted...

And when a society that gave individuals the ability to amass that much wealth could solve a lot of social ills by taking a fraction of it, why should then not do that?

bla bla punishing people for success or some shit
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I'd rather live in a world where one man like Jeff Bezos has all that money than one where he hit some sort of arbitrary wealth cap in the early days of Amazon and just stopped trying.

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legendary_zell posted...

By what rational metric does this make sense?

Amazon made a profit of $10 billion dollars last year. How does it not make sense that stock in that company would be worth billions? MS has even higher profits but omg how is Gates so wealthy?! Starting a company that hundreds of millions (or even billions) of people will pay money to use is not the same as earning a wage from one person.

Economic illiteracy is a huge problem in this country that no one talks about. And we wonder why someone like Trump gets elected.

Some people invest and start successful businesses. Other people would rather spend a lot in their 20s than save for later.
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legendary_zell posted...

How can one human being work that much harder than another?

It isn't about how hard a person is working. It's tied to how much financial impact you have on the world around you. Gates created a huge company and made world-changing technological advancements accessible to the majority of a nation. Bezos created a hub that processes (probably) millions of sales. They have a ton of money because their actions generated a fuck ton of money.
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It's sad that people still aren't aware that investing is a huge factor in generating wealth, it's not just getting a stagnant check.

Broseph_Stalin posted...

legendary_zell posted...

By what rational metric does this make sense?

Amazon made a profit of $10 billion dollars last year. How does it not make sense that stock in that company would be worth billions? MS has even higher profits but omg how is Gates so wealthy?! Starting a company that hundreds of millions (or even billions) of people will pay money to use is not the same as earning a wage from one person.

Economic illiteracy is a huge problem in this country that no one talks about. And we wonder why someone like Trump gets elected.

But why do they make sense??

I mean, by that logic, why do fat people or body builders make sense?? How can one person gain so much weight while other people starve?

Once a person reaches a certain weight, they should be forced to stop and give any extra to people with less weight than them
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Tryhaptaward posted...

People with novel ideas should only do it for the benefit of humanity, not for themselves

Says a person without any ideas
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I think it's interesting that one of the default arguments whenever problems with capitalism are brought up is that people are "economically illiterate." Happens a lot when people talk about Bernie Sanders and his policies

It's not that people dont understand these things, it's that they think they're bullshit and need to change
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MarqueeSeries posted...

I think it's interesting that one of the default arguments whenever problems with capitalism are brought up is that people are "economically illiterate." Happens a lot when people talk about Bernie Sanders and his policies

It's not that people dont understand these things, it's that they think they're bullshit and need to change

Just like with climate change deniers.

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No, it doesn't. And those rich filthy guys probably even have more money than you can think of stored away in tax havens in case some hard tax policy comes into place. Some kind of beheading should take place like in the French revolution. Those guys are sucking the life blood of thousands of poor people.

every penny of wealth after $10k should be redistributed
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MarqueeSeries posted...

I think it's interesting that one of the default arguments whenever problems with capitalism are brought up is that people are "economically illiterate." Happens a lot when people talk about Bernie Sanders and his policies

It's not that people dont understand these things, it's that they think they're bullshit and need to change

So you mean to tell me most people making this argument understand money and how to make it withouy depending on a job, but choose not to because they dont like it?
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Seize the means of production!

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s0nicfan posted...

I'd rather live in a world where one man like Jeff Bezos has all that money than one where he hit some sort of arbitrary wealth cap in the early days of Amazon and just stopped trying.

Is he the only guy that works to improve what Amazon is?
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For as long as I may live, I will never understand how companies like Microsoft, Apple, and Amazon can each single handedly change the world forever and yet somehow people still think the founders of these companies are not entitled to a proportionate quotient of their success.

You dont become a multibillionaire by "working harder", you do it by providing something that changes everyone's life for the better.

I just dont really understand why people get so hung up on it. The good news is you don't need to be a multiple billionaire to live a good life. Not even close. Yeah there are economic problems on the lower end of the economic ladder, but assuming the people who are winning the economic game of capitalism the most and have the most money are the root of those problems is very baseline simplistic chimp logic.
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Darmik posted...

Is he the only guy that works to improve what Amazon is?

Improve? No. Invent? Yes.

He was the one with the original idea, he was the one that took on all of the risk starting up a new business and did all of the leg work early on to make it succeed. He was the one with the singular vision that drove the company to where it is now. If any random person could create an Amazon, there would be more Amazons.

And my follow-up question, is if you're arguing that drastic changes to wealth wouldn't have an impact on these people, then tell me who these people are in Europe? Why is it that all of their biggest companies are oil and auto companies? Where is their apple, or Facebook, or Microsoft, or Tesla, or Amazon? Why is the EU almost entirely devoid of innovation in the private sector?

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