Poll of the Day > why is turkey still in nato

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Blighboy
10/13/19 3:47:18 PM
#1:


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HellShark
10/13/19 3:48:47 PM
#2:


It's too early to be buying Thanksgiving turkey. You'll run out of room in the fridge.
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dragon504
10/13/19 3:54:06 PM
#3:


I wonder how many times a turkey sandwich has caused confusion/outrage.
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HellShark
10/13/19 3:58:49 PM
#4:


If we're talking personal experience I just checked my journal and the number is 3 times in the last 6 months. Then nothing for 8 months before that, and before that it was just 1.
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ParanoidObsessive
10/13/19 4:00:19 PM
#5:


Because NATO only exists as a shield against the USSR/Russia.

As long as there's a perceived threat from Russian interests in the European sphere, NATO will continue to try and wall Russia in. And Russia will continue to try and fuck over European interests in response.

The thing most Americans and Westerners in general don't really think about is that global politics tend to look very different from the perception of countries like Russia and China. It's part of why those nations tend to dismiss claims of human rights issues out of hand - because they see them as the West trying to sabotage their interests by assuming a false moral high ground (and all too often, that's exactly what they are).

It's also why there's going to be continued conflict over areas like the Arctic and the South China sea, and why you're going to keep seeing things like Russia trying to run gas pipelines into Europe (which gives them political leverage) while China keeps trying to increase their economic ties to Africa and the Middle East.
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streamofthesky
10/13/19 4:29:05 PM
#6:


When it comes to anything regarding Turkey's cozy relationship w/ the US, the answer to "why?" is the same reason that region has been fought over and important for centuries if not millennia:

Location, location, location

Present day Turkey is located in an extremely strategically important spot between Asia and Europe. For most of the area's history it was important for land crossings and the shipping lanes it provided. More recently with the advent of missiles and aircraft it is also an ideal base of operations to engage targets across the Middle East and Russia (or if they were Russian allies, swap the latter for Europe).

They're an ally of convenience. Just like Saudi Arabia (oil). Nothing more.
The regime in Turkey currently is abominable and we absolutely shouldn't be allied with them, but we can't afford to sour relations with them. I'd argue even more so than Saudi Arabia.
It sucks, but short of trying regime change or conquest...not much we can do about it.
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Mead
10/13/19 4:36:45 PM
#7:


ParanoidObsessive posted...
Because NATO only exists as a shield against the USSR/Russia.

As long as there's a perceived threat from Russian interests in the European sphere, NATO will continue to try and wall Russia in. And Russia will continue to try and fuck over European interests in response.

The thing most Americans and Westerners in general don't really think about is that global politics tend to look very different from the perception of countries like Russia and China. It's part of why those nations tend to dismiss claims of human rights issues out of hand - because they see them as the West trying to sabotage their interests by assuming a false moral high ground (and all too often, that's exactly what they are).

It's also why there's going to be continued conflict over areas like the Arctic and the South China sea, and why you're going to keep seeing things like Russia trying to run gas pipelines into Europe (which gives them political leverage) while China keeps trying to increase their economic ties to Africa and the Middle East.


Most of this just sounds like false both sides-isms
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RoboXgp89
10/13/19 4:56:14 PM
#8:


Nato exist to keep Russia from becoming a economic power house
that's why when the ukraine prez got in trouble for making a trade deal with Russia the media whipped up a frenzy and got him impeached, then russia took over crimea, it's naturalized terrotory so the west went to war with russia, bombing it's own land

all of the us vs them wars in the middle east are happening because we the U.S. and Saudi arabia don't want a pipeline on land flowing to Russia

that's all this destabilization has been about and all it will ever be.

the (american) people who don't understand this refuse to look at the other half of the story because CNN and Fox would never be so stupid to bring that up, americans know first hand how bad oil wars are, it has nothing to do with communism or dictatorships if the outcome is magnitudes more violent obviuosly
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Mead
10/13/19 4:58:58 PM
#9:


RoboXgp89 posted...
Nato exist to keep Russia from becoming a economic power house
that's why when the ukraine prez got in trouble for making a trade deal with Russia the media whipped up a frenzy and got him impeached, then russia took over crimea, it's naturalized terrotory so the west went to war with russia, bombing it's own land

all of the us vs them wars in the middle east are happening because we the U.S. and Saudi arabia don't want a pipeline on land flowing to Russia

that's all this destabilization has been about and all it will ever be.

the (american) people who don't understand this refuse to look at the other half of the story


Maybe you should just move to russia since you consider them to be the good guys
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RoboXgp89
10/13/19 5:51:16 PM
#10:


Mead posted...
RoboXgp89 posted...
Nato exist to keep Russia from becoming a economic power house
that's why when the ukraine prez got in trouble for making a trade deal with Russia the media whipped up a frenzy and got him impeached, then russia took over crimea, it's naturalized terrotory so the west went to war with russia, bombing it's own land

all of the us vs them wars in the middle east are happening because we the U.S. and Saudi arabia don't want a pipeline on land flowing to Russia

that's all this destabilization has been about and all it will ever be.

the (american) people who don't understand this refuse to look at the other half of the story


Maybe you should just move to russia since you consider them to be the good guys


there is no good or bad guy there are consumers, that's how I know you don't know what you are talking about, you still measure politicians up to ridiculous things like moral standards when they get paid by lobbyist for corporate welfare
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Mead
10/13/19 5:54:46 PM
#11:


RoboXgp89 posted...
there is no good or bad guy there are consumers, that's how I know you don't know what you are talking about, you still measure politicians up to ridiculous things like moral standards when they get paid by lobbyist for corporate welfare


Yeah lets just disregard human rights entirely

I bet there are some historical examples of that turning out super well
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ParanoidObsessive
10/14/19 3:43:13 PM
#12:


Mead posted...
Most of this just sounds like false both sides-isms

Not really. That would only be the case if I was discussing moral equivalency (which I am not) as opposed to realpolitik (which I am).

As much as Americans as a people would like to believe otherwise, the US government as an entity doesn't give a single shit about human rights. We have a tendency to intervene only when there is tangible political benefit for us to do so, and willfully ignore all manner of abuses around the world in scenarios where we get nothing out of it. If a nation doesn't have oil, or other resources, or isn't a major economic power that may eventually threaten our own influence, we tend to blissfully ignore whatever they're up to and allow any amount of atrocities or civil rights violations to occur. It's why we rarely pay attention to anything in sub-Saharan Africa, or South America, or parts of Asia that aren't China. And that's without even getting into thornier issues like Guantanamo Bay still being a thing.

And other nations absolutely see the world that way, and are well aware of that fact. Which means our voice on the world stage means a lot less from a moral perspective (because most people who aren't already our explicit allies already consider us hypocrites), and it's really only our military and economic strength that gives us anything resembling authority in global debates.

In a perfect world, we WOULD care about human rights issues in and of themselves. We SHOULD be willing to take moral stances and not just let realpolitik dictate policy. But we don't live in that world.

As long as we see Russia as a larger potential threat than Turkey (and it likely always will be, for multiple reasons), we'll bend over backward to justify Turkey's inclusion in Western alliances designed to impede Russian influence. Just like how we've supported Saudi Arabia for decades in spite of it being more or less the direct source of a lot of the funding and support for militant Islam that has led to modern global terrorism.

We really only take official stances on moral issues when it directly benefits us in some way. Or when the entity we're condemning is so worthless that we lose nothing by doing so. Like it or not, that's very much the world we live in.

And no, that doesn't mean that I, as an individual, can't support Kurdish independence or Hong Kong independence or gay rights in Russia or shit on the Saudi crown prince for having people murdered, or whatever other moral stance comes to mind. But I'm also aware that the United States as a distinct political entity isn't going to do so unless we profit from it in some way.
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