Current Events > Weird how China became communist again

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hockeybub89
10/10/19 7:48:28 AM
#1:


For years, I've heard they are a fast growing country economically that was going to become the #1 power in the world, because they started stepping away from communism.

Now they start throwing around their money to control the corporations they own and influence and suddenly they're the perfect example of end-stage communism that all those Far-Left Democrat commies pine for.

Shit's wilf
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Malfunction
10/10/19 7:49:09 AM
#2:


You're not wrong
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averagejoel
10/10/19 7:51:56 AM
#3:


it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it
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trappedunderice
10/10/19 7:52:14 AM
#4:


What was it called whenever the Chinese government had a huge famine that killed a whole bunch of citizens? Edit - it was called the Great Leap Forward. Nevermind.
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The Admiral
10/10/19 7:54:41 AM
#5:


Your ignorance on China's government or the fact that you get your news from lefty echo chambers isn't CE's fault.

Here's a good primer on China's communism if you're genuinely interested in being informed.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/03/5-myths-about-the-chinese-communist-party/

China Is Communist in Name Only.

Wrong. If Vladimir Lenin were reincarnated in 21st-century Beijing and managed to avert his eyes from the citys glittering skyscrapers and conspicuous consumption, he would instantly recognize in the ruling Chinese Communist Party a replica of the system he designed nearly a century ago for the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution. One need only look at the partys structure to see how communist and Leninist Chinas political system remains.

Sure, China long ago dumped the core of the communist economic system, replacing rigid central planning with commercially minded state enterprises that coexist with a vigorous private sector. Yet for all their liberalization of the economy, Chinese leaders have been careful to keep control of the commanding heights of politics through the partys grip on the three Ps: personnel, propaganda, and the Peoples Liberation Army.

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averagejoel
10/10/19 7:59:08 AM
#6:


trappedunderice posted...
What was it called whenever the Chinese government had a huge famine that killed a whole bunch of citizens? Edit - it was called the Great Leap Forward. Nevermind.

there were many similar famines before that. how many have there been since?
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Solid Sonic
10/10/19 8:03:10 AM
#7:


averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?
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Malfunction
10/10/19 8:03:34 AM
#8:


China Is Communist in Name Only.

Wrong. If Vladimir Lenin were reincarnated in 21st-century Beijing and managed to avert his eyes from the citys glittering skyscrapers and conspicuous consumption, he would instantly recognize in the ruling Chinese Communist Party a replica of the system he designed nearly a century ago for the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution. One need only look at the partys structure to see how communist and Leninist Chinas political system remains.

Sure, China long ago dumped the core of the communist economic system, replacing rigid central planning with commercially minded state enterprises that coexist with a vigorous private sector. Yet for all their liberalization of the economy, Chinese leaders have been careful to keep control of the commanding heights of politics through the partys grip on the three Ps: personnel, propaganda, and the Peoples Liberation Army.


Hahahahaha this is amazing

"Sure China isn't actually a communist state anymore, but they retain an authoritarian grip on many aspects of the country which is essentially the same thing right?"
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SuperShake666
10/10/19 8:06:37 AM
#9:


averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it


Citation fucking needed. What in the fuck are you babbling about?
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averagejoel
10/10/19 8:07:08 AM
#10:


Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.
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The Admiral
10/10/19 8:07:21 AM
#11:


Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?


Because he's incapable of admitting communist nations are oppressive failures.
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JBaLLEN66
10/10/19 8:10:06 AM
#12:


The Admiral posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?


Because he's incapable of admitting communist nations are oppressive failures.


Last time I checked, China was positioned to pass the USA economically relatively soon.
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Solid Sonic
10/10/19 8:13:08 AM
#13:


averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.

The disdain for the law is rooted in the potential for grave misuse and overreach. I dont know what youre getting at by claiming Hong Kong just wants to freely murder people on the mainland...
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Rexdragon125
10/10/19 8:16:55 AM
#14:


JBaLLEN66 posted...
Last time I checked, China was positioned to pass the USA economically relatively soon.
Yup, China is buying up the USA. Why do you think this happens?
https://abc13.com/sports/free-hong-kong-chants-get-fans-kicked-out-of-nba-game/5606342/
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Ilishe
10/10/19 8:18:07 AM
#15:


averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.


Joe, HK is protecting its citizens from what would certainly be unfair trials and inhumane treatment.
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JBaLLEN66
10/10/19 8:19:15 AM
#16:


Rexdragon125 posted...
JBaLLEN66 posted...
Last time I checked, China was positioned to pass the USA economically relatively soon.
Yup, China is buying up the USA. Why do you think this happens?
https://abc13.com/sports/free-hong-kong-chants-get-fans-kicked-out-of-nba-game/5606342/


You cant even wear a Maga hat at a nba game.
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treewojima
10/10/19 8:26:08 AM
#17:


joel, if a HK citizen goes to China and kills someone they'll be arrested by Chinese police, unless you're suggesting that they'll hop over the border and flee back to HK to avoid any prosecution. I'm not brushed up enough on Chinese law w/r/t HK to know how such a thing would play out, if there are any exceptions to current extradition law, etc.

I'm more concerned about the Chinese government using that power to extradite for political purposes, as is everyone else protesting. this is less about theoretical crimes against the PRC that go unpunished and more about theoretical expansion of authoritarianism by the PRC
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Highwind07
10/10/19 8:26:31 AM
#18:


SuperShake666 posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it


Citation fucking needed. What in the fuck are you babbling about?


There has been video footage of protestors attacking Mainlanders in Hong Kong and destroying Mainlanders businesses. Not that I agree with them but that was what Joel was talking about.
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Shablagoo
10/10/19 8:27:28 AM
#19:


treewojima posted...
joel, if a HK citizen goes to China and kills someone they'll be arrested by Chinese police, unless you're suggesting that they'll hop over the border and flee back to HK to avoid any prosecution. I'm not brushed up enough on Chinese law w/r/t HK to know how such a thing would play out, if there are any exceptions to current extradition law, etc.

I'm more concerned about the Chinese government using that power to extradite for political purposes, as is everyone else protesting. this is less about theoretical crimes against the PRC that go unpunished and more about theoretical expansion of authoritarianism by the PRC

this
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averagejoel
10/10/19 8:27:59 AM
#20:


Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.

The disdain for the law is rooted in the potential for grave misuse and overreach. I dont know what youre getting at by claiming Hong Kong just wants to freely murder people on the mainland...

the law was implemented in the first place because a guy from Hong Kong killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then returned to Hong Kong and they couldn't do anything because there was no agreement in place
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averagejoel
10/10/19 8:30:17 AM
#21:


treewojima posted...
joel, if a HK citizen goes to China and kills someone they'll be arrested by Chinese police, unless you're suggesting that they'll hop over the border and flee back to HK to avoid any prosecution.

that literally happened, and that's why the extradition law was implemented in the first place
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hockeybub89
10/10/19 8:32:19 AM
#22:


The Admiral posted...
Your ignorance on China's government or the fact that you get your news from lefty echo chambers isn't CE's fault.

Here's a good primer on China's communism if you're genuinely interested in being informed.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/03/5-myths-about-the-chinese-communist-party/

China Is Communist in Name Only.

Wrong. If Vladimir Lenin were reincarnated in 21st-century Beijing and managed to avert his eyes from the citys glittering skyscrapers and conspicuous consumption, he would instantly recognize in the ruling Chinese Communist Party a replica of the system he designed nearly a century ago for the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution. One need only look at the partys structure to see how communist and Leninist Chinas political system remains.

Sure, China long ago dumped the core of the communist economic system, replacing rigid central planning with commercially minded state enterprises that coexist with a vigorous private sector. Yet for all their liberalization of the economy, Chinese leaders have been careful to keep control of the commanding heights of politics through the partys grip on the three Ps: personnel, propaganda, and the Peoples Liberation Army.

Lefties haven't ever been the ones telling me China's alright or how great their economy is. Also, "Lenin would have loved China if he ignored the economy" seems like kind of a big thing to ignore. I'm not trying to defend "true" communism, by the way. Just saying China has suddenly become "what liberals want" again, despite no one defending China for this recent shit except the Chinese and business that love money more than anything.
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pikachupwnage
10/10/19 8:32:56 AM
#23:


averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it


averagejoel posted...
because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.


They want it repealed because its quite obviously intended to remove those who speak out against China's evil policies/leaders in Hong Kong or are otherwise are considered "undesirable" and deny them fair trial.

China will use it as a poltical bludgeon to oppress Hong Kong and further violate its freedoms and human rights instead of using it for justice.

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averagejoel
10/10/19 8:33:15 AM
#24:


Ilishe posted...
averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.


Joe, HK is protecting its citizens from what would certainly be unfair trials and inhumane treatment.

do you think that people who kill someone in china and retreat to hong kong should face trial or not?
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averagejoel
10/10/19 8:34:50 AM
#25:


pikachupwnage posted...
They want it repealed because its quite obviously intended to remove those who speak out against Chinese evil policies in Hong Kong or are otherwise are considered "undesirable" and deny them fair trial.

China will use it as a poltical bludgeon to oppress Hong Kong and further violate its freedoms and human rights instead of using it for justice.

[citation needed]
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pikachupwnage
10/10/19 8:36:11 AM
#26:


averagejoel posted...
do you think that people who kill someone in china and retreat to hong kong should face trial or not?


Not in China because the Chinese government is an invalid govrernment that is inhernetly corrupt and evil with almost no protections for human rights. Nothing they say can be trusted.

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The Admiral
10/10/19 8:37:31 AM
#27:


Here's Amnesty International's description of the situation, for people looking for explanations that don't come from communist propagandists.

People in Hong Kong are facing violent restrictions on their rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression. Write to the government and demand they respect and protect the rights of people in Hong Kong now.

In March this year, the government of Hong Kong proposed a bill that, if passed, would have essentially allow the handover of persons in the territory of Hong Kong to mainland China. Millions of people came out in protest of the proposed changes and since then the bill has been withdrawn. But the people of Hong Kong face the ongoing threats to their rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression - and excessive police violence goes unpunished.

Our researchers have documented unnecessary and excessive use of force, including tear gas, batons and other less-lethal weapons, used by police, on the largely peaceful protesters; using vague charges to arrest and prosecute peaceful protesters; retaliatory violence against arrested persons in custody; and polices lack of response when protesters were facing violent attacks by counter-protesters and other people.

This has happened both during the pro-democracy Umbrella Movement in 2014 and the Extradition Bill protests that began in March this year. The Hong Kong authorities have used aggressive policing on occasions when they deem the protests are crossing the red-line. This red line is set by the Chinese government, and includes factors like advocating for democracy, challenging the Chinese government or endangering national sovereignty and security".


https://www.amnesty.org/en/get-involved/take-action/stop-the-hong-kong-extradition-bill/
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pinky0926
10/10/19 8:38:43 AM
#28:


Joel, you realise this extradition law would have extended beyond things like murder and well into the territory of heinous chinese crimes such as writing an expose on their organ harvesting farms, or speaking out against the administration?

This was never about being able to imprison the wrong'uns. This was always about control.
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DarthAragorn
10/10/19 8:46:03 AM
#29:


Wouldn't be an averagejoel post without a terrible opinion
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Malfunction
10/10/19 8:50:18 AM
#30:


Let's be fair, there are innumerable reasons to criticise China for this and more generally. The sudden outcry by typically right wing people online and on CE is totally opportunistic, though, and is so transparently them using the struggle of the people of HK as a fig leaf for their own phony war with "communism" (note: when China was in the news for its economic success, it most definitely was NOT communist to these people). There is no reason not to view their motives as cynical given their total silence and sometimes opposition to equivalent movements in Palestine or resistance to harmful sanctions in South America etc
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Ilishe
10/10/19 8:52:50 AM
#31:


averagejoel posted...
Ilishe posted...
averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.


Joe, HK is protecting its citizens from what would certainly be unfair trials and inhumane treatment.

do you think that people who kill someone in china and retreat to hong kong should face trial or not?


Sure, Hong Kong should conduct the trial.
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Highwind07
10/10/19 9:11:22 AM
#32:


Malfunction posted...
Let's be fair, there are innumerable reasons to criticise China for this and more generally. The sudden outcry by typically right wing people online and on CE is totally opportunistic, though, and is so transparently them using the struggle of the people of HK as a fig leaf for their own phony war with "communism" (note: when China was in the news for its economic success, it most definitely was NOT communist to these people). There is no reason not to view their motives as cynical given their total silence and sometimes opposition to equivalent movements in Palestine or resistance to harmful sanctions in South America etc


Man I have been posting about the protests since June and back then when it was still within the first few weeks there were barely any discussion at all. From about August till now everyone has suddenly been foaming at the mouth with China.
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JBaLLEN66
10/10/19 9:13:40 AM
#33:


Highwind07 posted...
Malfunction posted...
Let's be fair, there are innumerable reasons to criticise China for this and more generally. The sudden outcry by typically right wing people online and on CE is totally opportunistic, though, and is so transparently them using the struggle of the people of HK as a fig leaf for their own phony war with "communism" (note: when China was in the news for its economic success, it most definitely was NOT communist to these people). There is no reason not to view their motives as cynical given their total silence and sometimes opposition to equivalent movements in Palestine or resistance to harmful sanctions in South America etc


Man I have been posting about the protests since June and back then when it was still within the first few weeks there were barely any discussion at all. From about August till now everyone has suddenly been foaming at the mouth with China.


Cause the right is being cringely opportunistic af right now because plantations**I mean corporations are getting affected.
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ElatedVenusaur
10/10/19 9:25:47 AM
#34:


It's impossible to say what Lenin would think, but he also wanted to be cremated and lamented the increasingly authoritarian nature of the Soviet Union on his death bed(granted, he had a hand in that).
And his economic policies were very different from what ultimately became the norm for communist countries.
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darkphoenix181
10/10/19 9:30:38 AM
#35:


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/25/china-business-xi-jinping-communist-party-state-private-enterprise-huawei

Much of modern Chinas epic growth was driven by private enterprise but under Xi Jinping, the Communist party has returned to being the ultimate authority in business as well as politics.

When Xi Jinping took power in 2012, he extolled the importance of the state economy at every turn, while all around him watched as Chinas high-speed economy was driven by private entrepreneurs. Since then, Xi has engineered an unmistakable shift in policy. At the time he took office, private firms were responsible for about 50% of all investment in China and about 75% of economic output. But as Nicholas Lardy, a US economist who has long studied the Chinese economy, concluded in a recent study, Since 2012, private, market-driven growth has given way to a resurgence of the role of the state.

From the Mao era onwards, Chinese state firms have always had a predominant role in the economy, and the Communist party has always maintained direct control over state firms. For more than a decade, the party has also tried to ensure it played a role inside private businesses. But in his first term in office, Xi has overseen a sea change in how the party approaches the economy, dramatically strengthening the partys role in both government and private businesses.

The relationship between the party and private sector companies is, up to a point, flexible certainly more so than with state companies. The party doesnt habitually micromanage their day-to-day operations. The firms are largely still in charge of their basic business decisions. But pressure from party committees to have a seat at the table when executives are making big calls on investment and the like means the lines have been dangerously blurred, in the words of one analyst. Chinese domestic laws and administrative guidelines, as well as unspoken regulations and internal party committees, make it quite difficult to distinguish between what is private and what is state-owned.
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#36
Post #36 was unavailable or deleted.
Sackgurl
10/10/19 9:36:56 AM
#37:


hockeybub89 posted...
Just saying China has suddenly become "what liberals want"


liberals do not want to be china, don't put words in our mouths

the admiral is correct that post-mao china more closely resembles leninist organization of the post-civil war USSR than what's in the insane little red book

but honestly it's hard to really say that with confidence because he died so soon after he actually had control. post-stalin communists lionized lenin but he was still very much an authoritarian

i think mostly liberals want to be scandinavia, except without VAT. which is probably not realistic.
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darkphoenix181
10/10/19 9:39:33 AM
#38:


Foreign CEOs, too, have come under pressure to give the party a larger role in their firms. Again, this is a trend that began before Xi. Walmart, which famously wont allow unions in its US stores, has had party cells in its companies in China since at least 2006, and party-controlled unions even earlier. Under Xi, however, emboldened officials have pushed foreign firms harder to accommodate the party and give its representatives a role in business decisions.

Now a wide range of foreign companies in China, from the cosmetics giant LOral to Walt Disney and Dow Chemicals, all have party committees and display the hammer and sickle on their premises. In 2017, Reuters published an article that quoted executives from one European company saying that party representatives had demanded to be brought into the executive committee and have the business pay their expenses. Like Chinese entrepreneurs, foreign businessmen and women are trying to outrun the bear, not always with success.

But the partys persistent efforts to colonise the private sector have stoked a backlash of their own. In late 2017, the EU business chamber in China formally complained about party organisations trying to extend their influence in their member companies, something they said would undermine the authority of their boards.

Yet the chambers argument was met with indifference in China, at least in public utterances. When you are in Rome, do as the Romans do, said Chen Fengying, an expert at the China Institutes of Contemporary International Relations, a foreign policy thinktank. Foreign investors should respect local rules and regulations in China.


From same article as above.
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spudger
10/10/19 9:40:11 AM
#39:


god damn this is a stupid topic
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treewojima
10/10/19 9:41:56 AM
#40:


Godnorgosh posted...
I thought there was another term for a country with a capitalist economy in which the state controls production. I remember it being pretty self-explanatory, too.

Ah well. Comrades, new plan! Kneel before Bobby Kotick! Mwahahahaha

state capita-*gets taken out back and shot*

glorious Marxism, comra-*gets shot again*

sorry, socialism with Chinese characteristics
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ultimate reaver
10/10/19 9:45:02 AM
#41:


I mainly find it eyerolling that people are going on and on about how they want to "stand with Hong Kong" as if they really give a shit about it. The loudest outcry against China on places like this are always without fail kicked up over dumb video game shit like Tencent buying into companies or the Blizzard banning thing. It feels like a bunch of people are just so accustomed to riding around the video game outrage train that they are now trying to use it to inject themelves into a really complicated issue that they have the shallowest of understandings of. Thats the same reason you're getting a bunch of people defending China in a really transparently trolling manner, it's insanely easy to get people to react and go "LMAO THANK U CHINESE SHILL 5 CHINA DOLLARS DEPOSITED IN UR ACCOUNT #ISTANDWITHHK #DOWNWITHLOOTBOXES" and look like utter putzes while you laugh at them.

I've also seen people take it way too far into racial territory, but honestly that's probably the least surprising aspect of this whole thing

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Steelix500
10/10/19 11:05:09 AM
#42:


averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
Solid Sonic posted...
averagejoel posted...
it's weird that so many people think people from Hong Kong should be allowed to just go and kill people in mainland China because they feel like it

Why are you making that argument?

because that's a big part of what the protestors want. there is currently an "extradition" law. one of the protesters' demands is that it be repealed.

The disdain for the law is rooted in the potential for grave misuse and overreach. I dont know what youre getting at by claiming Hong Kong just wants to freely murder people on the mainland...

the law was implemented in the first place because a guy from Hong Kong killed his girlfriend in Taiwan, then returned to Hong Kong and they couldn't do anything because there was no agreement in place

Lol acting like Taiwan belongs to the PRC. Mainland China just using this as an excuse to abuse human rights in HK
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JBaLLEN66
10/10/19 11:06:16 AM
#43:


Kneel for China
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#44
Post #44 was unavailable or deleted.
pikachupwnage
10/10/19 11:13:59 AM
#45:


Steelix500 posted...
Lol acting like Taiwan belongs to the PRC. Mainland China just using this as an excuse to abuse human rights in HK



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EndOfDiscOne
10/10/19 11:19:13 AM
#46:


averagejoel is pro China?
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ssjevot
10/10/19 11:25:34 AM
#47:


EndOfDiscOne posted...
averagejoel is pro China?


He's pro-Soviet, pro-North Korean, and any other oppressive regime as long as it calls itself Communist. He doesn't care about how it actually functions, it just needs the label.

And it's hilarious he is bringing up the Taiwan case when Taiwan specifically came out against the extradition bill and is on the side of the Hong Kong people.
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thats a username you habe - chuckyhacksss
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creativerealms
10/10/19 11:29:40 AM
#48:


The Admiral posted...
Your ignorance on China's government or the fact that you get your news from lefty echo chambers isn't CE's fault.

Here's a good primer on China's communism if you're genuinely interested in being informed.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/03/5-myths-about-the-chinese-communist-party/

China Is Communist in Name Only.

Wrong. If Vladimir Lenin were reincarnated in 21st-century Beijing and managed to avert his eyes from the citys glittering skyscrapers and conspicuous consumption, he would instantly recognize in the ruling Chinese Communist Party a replica of the system he designed nearly a century ago for the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution. One need only look at the partys structure to see how communist and Leninist Chinas political system remains.

Sure, China long ago dumped the core of the communist economic system, replacing rigid central planning with commercially minded state enterprises that coexist with a vigorous private sector. Yet for all their liberalization of the economy, Chinese leaders have been careful to keep control of the commanding heights of politics through the partys grip on the three Ps: personnel, propaganda, and the Peoples Liberation Army.

So instead we should listen only to conservitive echo chambers like you do. Thanks for the heads up. I prefer to avoid echo chanbers all together.
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Occam's razor: The simplest solution (answer) is most likely the right one
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legendary_zell
10/10/19 11:33:39 AM
#49:


How the actual left is responding to Sander's heart attack and this Hong Kong situation isn't making me confident that they've gotten rid of their worst impulses.

@averagejoel

You are often right, but your stance here isn't a good look. I don't think you'd be defending this stuff if the label of the government doing it was changed from ostensibly communist to neoliberal.
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16-BITTER
10/10/19 11:42:08 AM
#50:


legendary_zell posted...
I don't think you'd be defending this stuff if the label of the government doing it was changed from ostensibly communist to neoliberal

You're talking about a guy who has justified the murder of children based on their parents' socio-political status
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The folks who know about frostiness stay frostiest the most.
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