Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 241: Trump Goes Coup-Coup

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xp1337
10/08/19 7:17:15 PM
#401:


pyresword posted...
Isn't the language in that letter a reference to the fact that the House hasn't formally voted to start an impeachment enquiry? Incidentally that's an argument I'm currently inclined to agree with, though I'm coming from a position of ignorance as far as how impeachment is supposed to work at a procedural level.

That's the argument they and the GOP are running with, yes.

However, legally I don't think it has a case.

I previously posted a NYT article explaining the different arguments made by both camps (tl;dr: Democrats say previous authorization votes were to secure investigative powers they didn't have at the time but that under the current House rules are already available so there's no need to seek them out.)

Constitutionally though is where I think it breaks apart completely.

here's what the constitution says on impeachment

Article I, Section 2, Paragraph 5:

"The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."


that's it

that's literally it

You Control+F "inquiry" you get nothing. It simply says the House has the sole power. I don't think SCOTUS has formally ruled on exactly what that "means" but it has generally been understood that the House makes all the rules. That's the basis behind when we say "the House could impeach you for committing a fashion crime if they had 218 votes for it" because they, and only they, decide wtf impeachment is.

The courts have generally decided that it isn't their business whatsoever to interfere here in Congress's actions and has deemed it a nonjustifiable political question AFAIK. Which is what I would think they'd do even if the GOP were to try to argue you need a full House vote to make it "for realz."

I mean, at the end of the day, the Constitution doesn't even mention inquiries at all sooo...
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pyresword
10/08/19 7:17:21 PM
#402:


My understanding is that the House is explicit invoking compliance with an impeachment inquiry as the reason why the executive branch has to comply. Is that wrong?
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pyresword
10/08/19 7:19:58 PM
#403:


Has the House as a whole voted to demand these documents and personnel appearances from the administration? If so then yeah I definitely don't buy the argument.
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SmartMuffin
10/08/19 7:22:31 PM
#404:


I've never really truly understood the whole outrage behind "cultural appropriation" until I started noticing Rudy Guiliani trying to tweet in the same style as Trump.

Knock that off! You didn't create that! You have no right!
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LordoftheMorons
10/08/19 7:25:23 PM
#405:


More Gowdy confusion:
https://twitter.com/maggienyt/status/1181701293993287681?s=21

Impeachment response really seems like a great place for infighting!

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xp1337
10/08/19 7:25:46 PM
#406:


pyresword posted...
Has the House as a whole voted to demand these documents and personnel appearances from the administration? If so then yeah I definitely don't buy the argument.

Yeah.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/11/us/politics/barr-mcgahn-subpoena.html

The House voted 229-191 to grant Judiciary the power to go to court compel Barr and McGahn to comply with subpoenas and further empowered other committees going forward to more easily seek court action in future disputes such as (at the time) Barr and Ross over the citizenship question.

The vote also gave Judiciary authority to go to court to get the Mueller grand jury info.

...I feel like there were more votes along the way (or even after) along these lines but this was the first to come up when I ran a search.
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pyresword
10/08/19 7:30:32 PM
#407:


Yeah ok that's fine then. Whether or not there's an "official" inquiry or what that means doesn't really matter. The way it was being reported on it sounded to me like the decision was made by some sub committee that was demanding they comply on a purely procedural basis, if that makes sense.

Seems I've fallen victim to the fake news media.
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red sox 777
10/08/19 7:31:17 PM
#408:


If the GOP doesn't agree with what the committees are doing, they can always demand a floor vote.

I think Trump would have a better argument if they argued that the House cannot do xyz until they have already impeached the President. That is how it is in normal cases - first you get the indictment, then you have access to all the legal tools available to you. But of course, the Senate would no doubt insist on a very speedy trial so that the House simply won't have time to do an investigation.
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LordoftheMorons
10/08/19 10:10:15 PM
#409:


Eight candidates have qualified for the 5th Dem debate... and one of them is Tom Steyer

why

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Grimlyn
10/08/19 10:15:30 PM
#410:


how do we dissolve the dnc
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TheRock1525
10/08/19 10:16:36 PM
#411:


acid wash them
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LordoftheMorons
10/08/19 10:19:28 PM
#412:


It's not really an indictment of the DNC as much as voters. You can certainly make a decent argument that the donor criterion is dumb (and very gameable; Steyer basically bought his donors by dumping iirc millions into Facebook ads), but the criterion that's actually keeping others off the stage is having enough qualifying polls, which is about as reasonable an objective measure as you can get. Somehow Steyer has gotten four 3% polls!

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Reg
10/08/19 10:28:45 PM
#413:


My understanding is that Steyer has not gotten four 3% polls

He took the alternate route of polling well (5%) in IA/NH specifically. Which, like his donor base, he basically bought with ridiculous ad buys afaik
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LordoftheMorons
10/08/19 10:33:33 PM
#414:


Looks like all his qualifying polls are national (at least per 538):
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/seven-candidates-have-now-qualified-for-the-november-democratic-debate/

Apparently you need to get 5% if you're using early state polls

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red sox 777
10/08/19 10:37:08 PM
#415:


So it turns out that Russia actually influenced the 2016 election by infiltrating the DNC. The FB ads, hacking, etc was all a smokescreen to hide Russia electing Trump by getting Hillary nominated.
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Reg
10/08/19 10:38:12 PM
#416:


Oh, that'd be my mistake for not double checking and just going off what people tell me then oops
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Grimlyn
10/08/19 10:50:52 PM
#417:


first steyer debate preview

moderator: "why the fuck are you here"
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kevwaffles
10/08/19 10:54:33 PM
#418:


red sox 777 posted...
So it turns out that Russia actually influenced the 2016 election by infiltrating the DNC. The FB ads, hacking, etc was all a smokescreen to hide Russia electing Trump by getting Hillary nominated.

You're not even being original or current now. Sad!
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Forceful_Dragon
10/08/19 11:07:39 PM
#419:


I've seen 3% Yang on a bunch of polls since the last debate. I guess those don't count?
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xp1337
10/08/19 11:09:57 PM
#420:


Forceful_Dragon posted...
I've seen 3% Yang on a bunch of polls since the last debate. I guess those don't count?

again it's not a conspiracy the DNC said ahead of time which polling outfits count

But I want to say I think Yang got the last poll he needed today and is in as well. If I'm mistaken he's still only one away and has over a month he'll be in.
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LordoftheMorons
10/08/19 11:11:22 PM
#421:


Iirc they announced ahead of time which polls they're using for qualificiation. Presumably there are only 11 national and 7 state that they're using so far (unless Biden, Warren, and Sanders somehow didn't qualify in some!)

And yeah Yang just qualified today

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xp1337
10/08/19 11:23:42 PM
#422:


Without checking the DNC's requirements again, and assuming they haven't changed from the first two debates, it's something like polls conducted by/with the major news agencies and a handful of the bigger names in polling like Quinnipiac. Then, for the early states there are an outfit or two more allowed specific for that state, like say the Des Moines Register counting for Iowa.
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Forceful_Dragon
10/08/19 11:35:06 PM
#423:


Yeah I know they weren't changing eligible polls on the fly or anything nefarious like that. I was just remarking that the poll aggregators don't mention which ones count and which don't so I wasn't able to stay informed regarding any changes to debate eligibility. I'm glad today's poll counted for Yang's 4th though.
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LordoftheMorons
10/09/19 12:07:08 AM
#424:


Very cool gif:
https://twitter.com/politicalmiller/status/1181715133770485762

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Paratroopa1
10/09/19 12:14:12 AM
#425:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Very cool gif:
https://twitter.com/politicalmiller/status/1181715133770485762

I still fucking hate that they're using a misleading map. a lot of the counties listed in red here DID NOT VOTE RED IN 2016! see Pierce County and Skagit County in Washington state for instance, which were both Clinton counties in 2016.
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LordoftheMorons
10/09/19 12:25:16 AM
#426:


These deaths will be on Trump's hands:
https://twitter.com/IgnatiusPost/status/1181724204233904128

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red sox 777
10/09/19 3:56:12 AM
#427:


LordoftheMorons posted...
Very cool gif:
https://twitter.com/politicalmiller/status/1181715133770485762


That's beautiful. Land votes, not people.
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red13n
10/09/19 3:59:06 AM
#428:


red sox 777 posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
Very cool gif:
https://twitter.com/politicalmiller/status/1181715133770485762


That's beautiful. Land votes, not people.


it actually should look somewhat different because that map that is circulating was already fudged to turn some blue voting counties red.
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 10:07:00 AM
#429:


pretty sure the land as a whole voted for hillary

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Reg
10/09/19 10:17:45 AM
#430:


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xp1337
10/09/19 10:25:41 AM
#431:


So, this is how Blizzard is responding, huh. (Note: This was apparently their original response, but still wtf)

https://twitter.com/Slasher/status/1181925730877345793

Their post on Chinese social media: "We will always respect and defend the pride of our country."

our country, huh?
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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:02:49 PM
#432:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
pretty sure the land as a whole voted for hillary


The map says otherwise.
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xp1337
10/09/19 12:02:50 PM
#433:


AP is reporting that Turkey has declared it has begun strikes into Syria.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1181929592254283784

National Security Correspondent for Fox News reporting that Trump ordered the US Military not to help the Kurds as they requested support to protect civilians from being bombed by Turkish jets.

****.

~~~

https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1181900607231275008

Just one poll, but this is the first showing that removing Trump has hit 50% support.

Trend for this poll (impeach + remove)

9/22: 36-49
9/24: 43-43
Today: 50-43
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 12:13:59 PM
#434:


red sox 777 posted...
The map says otherwise.


Of course, but that one is misleading. Here is a better one.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjYdzT_V4AAoLXZ?format=jpg&name=900x900

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xp1337
10/09/19 12:18:21 PM
#435:


rigged

why is that light color bounded to 2.1%?

clearly to downplay clinton's victory since if it was bounded to 2% she'd be in the next color over.
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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:24:29 PM
#436:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
red sox 777 posted...
The map says otherwise.


Of course, but that one is misleading. Here is a better one.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DjYdzT_V4AAoLXZ?format=jpg&name=900x900


Wrong. The results for the country were:

Donald Trump 304
Hillary Clinton 227
Others 7

That's 56.5% for Trump.
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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:28:02 PM
#437:


xp1337 posted...
AP is reporting that Turkey has declared it has begun strikes into Syria.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1181929592254283784

National Security Correspondent for Fox News reporting that Trump ordered the US Military not to help the Kurds as they requested support to protect civilians from being bombed by Turkish jets.

****.

~~~

https://twitter.com/ThePlumLineGS/status/1181900607231275008

Just one poll, but this is the first showing that removing Trump has hit 50% support.

Trend for this poll (impeach + remove)

9/22: 36-49
9/24: 43-43
Today: 50-43


This is a little concerning, but I wouldn't get too alarmed until it gets to 60% or so. Remember, Trump had a 60% unfavorability rating on election day and still won, because the best reason to vote for him is to stop the Democrats. There will be a sizable number of people who support impeachment and removal but will still vote for Trump when they see who his opponent is.
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 12:36:30 PM
#438:


red sox 777 posted...
Wrong. The results for the country were:

Donald Trump 304
Hillary Clinton 227
Others 7

That's 56.5% for Trump.


Oh, so you're saying land doesn't vote after all and electors of states do?

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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:39:34 PM
#439:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Wrong. The results for the country were:

Donald Trump 304
Hillary Clinton 227
Others 7

That's 56.5% for Trump.


Oh, so you're saying land doesn't vote after all and electors of states do?


The electors represent the land.
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 12:40:56 PM
#440:


red sox 777 posted...
The electors represent the land.


No, my map shows pretty definitively the land voted for Hillary. The electors represent states. You're saying the will of the states trumps the will of both the land and the people.

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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:48:20 PM
#441:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
red sox 777 posted...
The electors represent the land.


No, my map shows pretty definitively the land voted for Hillary. The electors represent states. You're saying the will of the states trumps the will of both the land and the people.


No, your map shows what a subset of people voted for using different standards. The first map shows the land, although not at its finest grain. The ideal map would go house by house. The electoral college result is a statistical summary of the map.
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 12:52:42 PM
#442:


red sox 777 posted...


No, your map shows what a subset of people voted for using different standards. The first map shows the land, although not at its finest grain. The ideal map would go house by house. The electoral college result is a statistical summary of the map.


House by house? So we should go back to the landowning requirement to vote? That is the logical conclusion of holding the land's ability to vote at the highest priority, I suppose.

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red sox 777
10/09/19 12:57:34 PM
#443:


HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
red sox 777 posted...


No, your map shows what a subset of people voted for using different standards. The first map shows the land, although not at its finest grain. The ideal map would go house by house. The electoral college result is a statistical summary of the map.


House by house? So we should go back to the landowning requirement to vote? That is the logical conclusion of holding the land's ability to vote at the highest priority, I suppose.


I think that would guarantee victory for the GOP. Mitch, you listening?
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HeroDelTiempo17
10/09/19 1:01:20 PM
#444:


red sox 777 posted...


I think that would guarantee victory for the GOP. Mitch, you listening?


I mean we already knew the GOP would love that, and why they are the true enemy of the people. I just didn't know you did too, but it makes sense.

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xp1337
10/09/19 1:15:01 PM
#445:


you think it'd be exhausting to constantly stan for a party that takes children from their parents and places them in cages and also betrays its allies in war, leaving them at the mercy of states that want to destroy them
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red sox 777
10/09/19 1:18:31 PM
#446:


xp1337 posted...
you think it'd be exhausting to constantly stan for a party that takes children from their parents and places them in cages and also betrays its allies in war, leaving them at the mercy of states that want to destroy them


But they protect us from the party that wants to abolish freedom and insults the poor while taking away their livelihood.

I will say, personally I find this Turkey decision extremely upsetting, the worst thing Trump has done as president by a large margin. But Corrik at least doesn't share my view on that.
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LordoftheMorons
10/09/19 1:29:28 PM
#447:


xp1337 posted...
AP is reporting that Turkey has declared it has begun strikes into Syria.

https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1181929592254283784

National Security Correspondent for Fox News reporting that Trump ordered the US Military not to help the Kurds as they requested support to protect civilians from being bombed by Turkish jets.

****.



Makes my fucking blood boil. Trump may as well be dropping the bombs himself.

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Peace___Frog
10/09/19 1:38:27 PM
#448:


xp1337 posted...
you think it'd be exhausting to constantly stan for a party that takes children from their parents and places them in cages and also betrays its allies in war, leaving them at the mercy of states that want to destroy them

You would but evil doesn't tire easily
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LordoftheMorons
10/09/19 2:37:18 PM
#449:


https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181547331822456832

Damn, I guess we all forgot that Turkey has spent enough money with us to unlock the "murder Kurdish civilians" perk!

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red sox 777
10/09/19 2:46:00 PM
#450:


LordoftheMorons posted...
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1181547331822456832

Damn, I guess we all forgot that Turkey has spent enough money with us to unlock the "murder Kurdish civilians" perk!


Once again, Trump conflates a country with its leader. He says Turkey is coming to the United States in November. No, its leader is coming.
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