Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 489: Nick Gage was Robbed

(+) Yeah! (+)

The WWE Draft has been outlined

Itll be Seth vs Roman for which brand bets the first pick

Then itll be like last time where Raw gets 3 for every 2 picks SD gets

Heres the list of people picking for their Network Conglomerates on SD

Alex Rodriguez -- FOX MLB analyst

Michael Che & Colin Jost of "Saturday Night Live"

Christian Slater of "Mr. Robot"

Joe Buck & Troy Aikman -- NFL on FOX commentators

Jim Cramer of "Mad Money"

Kevin Burkhardt & Frank Thomas -- FOX MLB analysts

Terry Bradshaw, Howie Long, Jimmy Johnson & Tony Gonzalez -- FOX NFL Sunday

Ronde Barber, Charles Davis, Chris Spielman & Daryl Johnston -- FOX NFL analysts

Charissa Thompson, Michael Vick & Peter Schrager -- FOX NFL Kickoff

Rob Stone, Brady Quinn, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart & Urban Meyer -- Big Noon Kickoff

Joel Klatt -- FOX College Football analyst

Dule Hill of USAs Psych and Suits

James Roday of Psych

Marcus Lemonis of The Profit

Margaret Josephs & Melissa Gorga of Real Housewives of New Jersey

Rodney Harrison & Chris Simms -- Football Night in America

Rebecca Lowe, Robbie Mustoe & Kyle Martino -- Premier League Live
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So, I'm watching AEW for the first time.

I'm in awe of this Young Bucks/Private Party match, but I'm confused at how the fuck the Bucks are pulling off a huge Sharpshooter/Facebuster spot (after like 3-4 other false finishes), and the match STILL HASN"T FUCKING ENDED YET!

I love the match, but dude. Is this just what they do? I'm all for non-stop action like this, but there's a point where it becomes ludicrous. It's a first round match, not a final.The match ended on the rollup, but that Shooting Star was the perfect ending...

*Also, Jim Ross sucks and dragging Excalibur/Schiavone down HARD*

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My headcanon with the bucks who do this a lot is that they actually arent very good at their offense.

Also with AEW like frankly their opening match every week sort of has been their main event.

Not sure if its on purpose but Cody/Sammy was the same way where it was the best worked match on the card.
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Jakyl25 posted...

The WWE Draft has been outlined

Itll be Seth vs Roman for which brand bets the first pick

Then itll be like last time where Raw gets 3 for every 2 picks SD gets

Heres the list of people picking for their Network Conglomerates on SD

Alex Rodriguez -- FOX MLB analyst

Michael Che & Colin Jost of "Saturday Night Live"

Christian Slater of "Mr. Robot"

Joe Buck & Troy Aikman -- NFL on FOX commentators

Jim Cramer of "Mad Money"

Kevin Burkhardt & Frank Thomas -- FOX MLB analysts

Terry Bradshaw, Howie Long, Jimmy Johnson & Tony Gonzalez -- FOX NFL Sunday

Ronde Barber, Charles Davis, Chris Spielman & Daryl Johnston -- FOX NFL analysts

Charissa Thompson, Michael Vick & Peter Schrager -- FOX NFL Kickoff

Rob Stone, Brady Quinn, Reggie Bush, Matt Leinart & Urban Meyer -- Big Noon Kickoff

Joel Klatt -- FOX College Football analyst

Dule Hill of USAs Psych and Suits

James Roday of Psych

Marcus Lemonis of The Profit

Margaret Josephs & Melissa Gorga of Real Housewives of New Jersey

Rodney Harrison & Chris Simms -- Football Night in America

Rebecca Lowe, Robbie Mustoe & Kyle Martino -- Premier League Live

Look at all these fucking goobers gonna be taking airtime
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Loved the Jericho promo, but one of the LAX guys kept sticking his tongue out over and over and drove me nuts. He's like those dudes who swish their knives back and forth to each hand or something.

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Strife2 posted...

I'm in awe of this Young Bucks/Private Party match, but I'm confused at how the f*** the Bucks are pulling off a huge Sharpshooter/Facebuster spot (after like 3-4 other false finishes), and the match STILL HASN"T f***ING ENDED YET!

Worked for Seth and Bray!

<_<
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Main event...first round match...

Anyway, I loved Havoc's inset promo. Line of the night already from Schiavone. 'Half of him is dead. I bet all of him is dead now..."


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That was more like it. Allin and Havoc fought JUST enough to make it back and forth, without getting too stupid with the ending.

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Finished AEW. The Moxley/Spears and Women's Tags weren't anything too special, but it was a marvel seeing Dustin Rhodes at 50+ doing way better in the ring than most people half his age. I get the feeling he is just absolutely incensed at WWE for doing very little with him when he can still go at a pretty high level. Compared to Jericho, he's got a lot of mobility left. He and Page were just an awesome tag team for one that was thrown together.

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I'm really getting tired of the "too many false finishes" complaint on matches. Multiple false finishes are not inherently a bad thing and never have been.

False finishes only become a problem if they take away from the pop of the actual finish. That very rarely happens in Bucks matches. Crowd went insane when PP won.

I don't know how you watch that match where a team of young wrestlers got more over with a live crowd in twenty minutes than anyone in WWE has in five years and think, "Eh, they did too much."

No, they did the right amount. If they hadn't done all they did, Private Party might not have gotten over like that.
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The problem is they did so many fucking things when they don't have to. PP should have won off the Shooting Star Press, because that was the most impactful move of the match. What's better is it came after the Bucks had that crazy Sharpshooter spot. PP got the hope spot they needed. They got one of the Bucks out of the ring with the Hurricanrana/Cutter thing, and they could have finished off the other guy with the SSP. Why even need the roll up? It would have been a shock win either way.

My main concern is more that this was an opening match to a tournament (even with the Young Bucks), rather than saving a crazy finish for the finals. It got PP over in a big way, but finish with a flashy move, not the dumbass rollup spot.

*And lets be fair, New Day/Bar or New Day/Usos did a lot of this shit too. I'm not shitting on the Young Bucks due to name value. I've never fucking seen them till now*

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False finishes are good

False finishes are only bad in the WWE style where it's literally just hitting your finisher over and over with kick outs, because that gets old. If you keep expecting guys to maybe stay down and they don't, and then it escalates or stays at the same pitch? Great! Suffice to say I disagree the match peaked at the shooting star press.

Though the worst take may be that Jim Ross is not a good announcer. He added so much to the story of that match with his commentary about how The Bucks aren't finishing due to underestimating the Private Party, how they're now making mistakes due to the 20 minute time limit and not putting them away early, etc.
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Ross just sounded flustered all day, as if he had no confidence. The only time he did was when there was someone he knew in the ring. He knows Rhodes, Jericho, and Hager. I don't buy him talking about anyone else on the roster. He even flat out went, "Excalibur, care to explain to people at home about this Sakura lady?" Sure, his point was probably, "explain to the people at home," but it came off as if he didn't have a fucking clue either.

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Strife2 posted...

The problem is they did so many fucking things when they don't have to. PP should have won off the Shooting Star Press, because that was the most impactful move of the match. What's better is it came after the Bucks had that crazy Sharpshooter spot. PP got the hope spot they needed. They got one of the Bucks out of the ring with the Hurricanrana/Cutter thing, and they could have finished off the other guy with the SSP. Why even need the roll up? It would have been a shock win either way.

My main concern is more that this was an opening match to a tournament (even with the Young Bucks), rather than saving a crazy finish for the finals. It got PP over in a big way, but finish with a flashy move, not the dumbass rollup spot.

*And lets be fair, New Day/Bar or New Day/Usos did a lot of this shit too. I'm not shitting on the Young Bucks due to name value. I've never fucking seen them till now*

Fine, whatever.
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And yet his best commentary of the night was in a match that involved none of those guys!
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Dude, the fuck is the problem? I'm saying AEW isn't some godly amazing counter culture answer to WWE. It has loads of problems, and I noticed them. I'm new to what AEW is offering, so what else am I supposed to do? Gloss over JR being an old fuck?

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I thought Ross has been pretty great
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I'm saying I noticed problems too and they were ironically in the things you thought were done well like the Darby vs Havoc match (Darby didn't get enough time to shine to really come off as any sort of credible threat to Jericho)

Complaining about the stuff on the show I (and most people who watched the show I've interacted with) thought was the best stuff on it is ???
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Yeah I wasnt gonna go there but Ross weaved a hell of a story into Bucks/PP.

Schiavone and Excalibur are the class of the team but Ross has his role and he plays it well.
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Is that a case of Ross getting better, or having multiple people to bounce off of though? Schiavone sounds like he hasn't aged a day, and Excalibur is just amazing.

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Lopen posted...

I'm saying I noticed problems too and they were ironically in the things you thought were done well like the Darby vs Havoc match (Darby didn't get enough time to shine to really come off as any sort of credible threat to Jericho)

Complaining about the stuff on the show I (and most people who watched the show I've interacted with) thought was the best stuff on it is ???

Jericho's facing Cody at a PPV. No one needs to buy Allin as the guy to beat him.


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Strife2 posted...

Dude, the fuck is the problem? I'm saying AEW isn't some godly amazing counter culture answer to WWE. It has loads of problems, and I noticed them. I'm new to what AEW is offering, so what else am I supposed to do? Gloss over JR being an old fuck?

I guess you missed the big long double post I made a week ago where I said the exact thing, where AEW isn't something crazy different from WWE and how much that disappointed me.

What irritates me is that one specific criticism - "too many false finishes." It's lazy and flat-out nonsensical.

The entire style of 90's AJPW, one of the most beloved eras in wrestling history from both a match quality and business perspective, was centered around long finishing sequence with insane moves and big kickouts. And yet in the last five years, for whatever reasons, false finishes have suddenly become a bad thing. It represents such a shortsighted misunderstanding of what wrestling is.
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I probably did, because I haven't been around...

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After a second week, I do still stand by that AEW isn't all that much different than WWE. It's WWE but better.

But it's so much better and I love it.
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A skateboard spot to end the show ALONE should be enough to get you to come back the next week.
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I definitely think his commentary team gelling with him is a huge boon to his ability for sure.

But the why he's doing well doesn't entirely matter unless we're just trying to pick reasons to tear Jim Ross down? Like he definitely adds something to what's going on there and isn't dragging anything down. Like Schiavone and Excalibur would certainly be a fine commentary team but they would be inferior to the 3 man booth they have.
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Ross isn't the play by play guy.

He's your historical lens and he talks about things like match flow and pyschology - he offered a method for understanding why Private Party was giving the Bucks such fits and rightfully explaining why the upset in front of us was happening (Bucks have lost two big matches in a row, they know a draw is as good as a loss here, Private Party is a team they underestimated and have allowed to hang in there way way too long) something sorely lacking from many commentary teams.
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NBIceman posted...

And yet in the last five years, for whatever reasons, false finishes have suddenly become a bad thing

They've become a bad thing because WWE mails in false finishes by making them

Finisher
TWO Finishers
SURPRISE Finisher
Finisher FROM THE TOP ROPE

Doing false finishes with devastating looking moves unique to the match is awesome
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Funny thing is, the matches most often gone after by people who don't like false finishes generally don't occur in WWE.
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And ending matches on moves other than the finisher is so fucking refreshing.

A victory roll is still a wrestling maneuver. And notice Private Party didn't run off like they stole something - everyone knew they had WON and deserved to win.
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Anyway, did I hate it, no. There are things AEW does that I enjoyed. The main eventers and tag teams all look very solid. They have a distinct sense that while they COULD push Cody, the Bucks, Omega out the gate, they haven't, and given Moxley, Allin, PAC, others time to shine. The commentary is pretty solid, because I think they all work well off each other. The problem is for the gravitas Ross gives (that they made such a big deal about), Schiavone and Excalibur do all the leg work and sound like they know the product more thoroughly. I suppose it helps they don't shill anything except upcoming shows...

The camera work in ring is pretty good, though I'm not sold on the entrance music or pyro. Most of the songs sound alike, or it comes off as WCW-esque rather than WWE's more identifiable gratfiying themes. Jericho's being an exception since that was a Fozzy song I already knew.

What I appreciate is they don't feel like they "hate" pro wrestling like WWE seems to. I'm not going to just go whole hog and say everything works, but there's a looseness and sort of "dangerousness" feel that still comes across as professional. Moxley wrestles completely differently, and it doesn't follow the same format...thank Christ.

I suppose what I will say is the Young Bucks match tried to feel way different and more "epic" than everything else except the main event, but it just wasn't for me. Good tag team coordination, but nothing I couldn't see elsewhere. I just didn't buy the hype. It was more of a showcase for Private Party yes, but I'd rather see the Lucha Bros wreck shit (Because Pentagon and Fenix were just insane in LU as singles. Them as a team? NEED IT NOW) than a Young Bucks match going forward.

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I am flabbergasted as to where you could see anything remotely as good as the Young Bucks anywhere else in the world. NXT Takeover matches have come the closest, and the clearly attempt to ape the style, but that unique pacing, that ability to near-fall with tons of moves that aren't their finishes and still keep the crowd engaged... that's something truly special.

I mean, to each their own, but man! I don't get this idea that other teams elsewhere can match up with the Bucks. They copy the Bucks.
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I mean Lucha Bros are fantastic and I love LAX but the Bucks are the Kenta Kobashi of tag teams.

You don't usually walk away from the match thinking they were the reason it was awesome but you start to notice the trend after a while
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I saw one match that didn't blow me away? The match wasn't designed for them, and I said as much. If I saw the Lucha Bros ladder match, maybe I'd have a better opinion of them.

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I do understand the idea that you may not see what the big deal is about the Bucks if that was the first match you've ever seen of theirs, because it was clearly intended as a Private Party showcase first and foremost. And most of the Bucks' greatness, as Ed said, comes from having the most consistent and long track record of any team in history.

It was the false finish complaint specifically that aggravated me.
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I am offering an explanation

Yeah on the surface they're annoying jackasses who spam crowd popping moves like the superkicks but beneath that they're true ring generals and its gonna take some time watching them to pick up on that
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Private Party did not construct that match alone, and some of the transitions the Bucks provided were just phenomenal.
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Well, the only thing I've known about the Young Bucks for 5 years was, "SUPERKICK PARTY!," "MELTZER DRIVER," and "Best Tag Team in the World."

It's kinda hard to go into a match with the "best thing ever" and the result is just, "Eh. They were good" That's what having expectations does.

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Oddly enough they didnt do a superkick party or a meltzer driver in that match.
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I mean you don't have to love it but it felt like you were going in with an agenda to hate it with the weird stuff you took to complain about. Like if I was going in trying to nitpick or read a write-up of the match or something I could see these things being bad on paper but in practice if you thought the match ending with a victory roll or continuing after the SSP was bad I'm just confused. Like I was hyped through the whole thing, and I'm definitely a person who will rag on matches that just feel like a 'bunch of moves' or go too long-- this was not that by any stretch. The match hit a high point somewhere in the middle and held that note till the end. Private Party needed every bit of that time to really come out looking amazing and I felt it ended at a perfect time in a perfect way given the story of the match. The Bucks got reckless and were punished for it. Like I'm not even a real fan of the Bucks all things considered. I hated them for a long time cause I felt they were just a pile of flashy moves on a pair of guys that look like cocky children, but they've grown into an act I kinda like by getting really good at transitions and flow and connecting with the audience and stuff over the years-- not best tag team ever status or anything but I like em. But man that match was something special for a TV match.

Then once you got that out of your system you softened and start giving praise to stuff like Darby vs Havoc that didn't deserve any to temper things.

I mean Meltzer complaining about the booking may even be a worse complaint than anything you said so I guess you're in good company.

Like it's definitely far from a perfect show. I could complain about a lot, but like, the one thing I couldn't have imagined being better was the opener.
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Hey I've been hating the young bucks without watching them for ages, get in line

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Jakyl25 posted...

Dule Hill of USAs Psych and Suits

James Roday of Psych

If they're not doing it together this whole thing has been a waste.
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don't worry one of them is gonna have to cancel

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The news just broke that Stephanie is gonna makr all the picks.

The celebs are just gonna be playing the Mel Kiper role.
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Mel Kiper Sr. or Jr.?
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AEW: 1.018 million
NXT: 790k

NXT's drop is expected, but kinda disappointed that AEW lost almost 400k viewers.
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Add the TruTV simultaneous viewership to that, please. Because that's not an accurate total.
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18-49 demos

AEW: .46 (down from .68)
NXT: .22 (down from .32)
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NXT big with the 50+ crowd

it's all WALTER
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Looks like with the simulcast it's 1.140 million. 260k isn't that bad, then. Especially with the MLB playoffs competing against it. TNT live, TNT replay, TruTV simulcast put it at 1.5 million, down from 1.832 million debut.

Although at the same time, would it be fair to then count NXT replays on the WWE Network? Especially since NXT doesn't get a TV network replay.
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