Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 489: Nick Gage was Robbed

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Lopen
10/03/19 11:54:17 PM
#101:


Jakyl25 posted...

Every entrance graphic had these


Huh. Seriously?

Well then good! I have no idea how I missed it every time. Maybe I just glossed over it cause they were all paltry records I don't know.
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StealThisSheen
10/03/19 11:54:44 PM
#102:


Lopen posted...
- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.


I mean like one of the matches had like most of the commentary being about how one of the dudes liked Dungeons and Dragons and going on about that until somebody called the guy a nerd. It definitely wasn't perfect by any stretch.
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Jakyl25
10/03/19 11:55:18 PM
#103:


StealThisSheen posted...
Lopen posted...
- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.


I mean like one of the matches had like most of the commentary being about how one of the dudes liked Dungeons and Dragons and going on about that until somebody called the guy a nerd. It definitely wasn't perfect by any stretch.


That actually was the story of how the match happened <_<
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StealThisSheen
10/03/19 11:56:47 PM
#104:


Jakyl25 posted...
StealThisSheen posted...
Lopen posted...
- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.


I mean like one of the matches had like most of the commentary being about how one of the dudes liked Dungeons and Dragons and going on about that until somebody called the guy a nerd. It definitely wasn't perfect by any stretch.


That actually was the story of how the match happened <_<


Oh well then that's what I get for not watching AEW
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Lopen
10/03/19 11:57:16 PM
#105:


Yeah if it involves the two competitors and I don't care how dumb it is. That was literally the MJP guy's promo on the dude before the match so it seemed fine imo.
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Jakyl25
10/03/19 11:57:50 PM
#106:


Lopen posted...
Jakyl25 posted...

Every entrance graphic had these


Huh. Seriously?

Well then good! I have no idea how I missed it every time. Maybe I just glossed over it cause they were all paltry records I don't know.


Yeah this is from All Out but they all looked like this

https://imgur.com/HTNn9bg_d
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Jakyl25
10/03/19 11:58:40 PM
#107:


Lopen posted...
Yeah if it involves the two competitors and I don't care how dumb it is. That was literally the MJP guy's promo on the dude before the match so it seemed fine imo.


MJF
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StealThisSheen
10/04/19 12:00:10 AM
#108:


Like I said, I wasn't saying "This feels like WWE but better" as a bad thing at all. I just think the overall production just felt like WWE. They spent more time on the matches/put more focus on them, but that's part of the "but better." Otherwise, they still hit a lot of the same tropes WWE does on the reg. You had some convoluted spots that didn't really fit the match (the Brandi spot in the Cody match), you had a bunch of beatdowns, you had random barely connected wrestler contributing nothing to commentary for a match, you had the random celebrity spot.

It just felt very similar to me, but with better writing overall and much, much better focus on commentary/the matches themselves, but overall it still felt like they were selling me the same thing.
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 12:00:20 AM
#109:


StealThisSheen posted...
Jakyl25 posted...
StealThisSheen posted...
Lopen posted...
- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.


I mean like one of the matches had like most of the commentary being about how one of the dudes liked Dungeons and Dragons and going on about that until somebody called the guy a nerd. It definitely wasn't perfect by any stretch.


That actually was the story of how the match happened <_<


Oh well then that's what I get for not watching AEW


MJF posted this online

https://wgp-cdn.co.uk/TTG/png/mjf-dnd-tweet-33882/600/600/

And Cutler was standing up for D&D players everywhere
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Lopen
10/04/19 12:02:05 AM
#110:


Oh okay yeah they were off to the side that makes more sense why I didn't see it

Not saying that's a problem necessarily just explains why I didn't absorb it immediately. I mean I'm sure I just didn't look at every intro graphic too is part of it.
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StealThisSheen
10/04/19 12:02:23 AM
#111:


Jakyl25 posted...
StealThisSheen posted...
Jakyl25 posted...
StealThisSheen posted...
Lopen posted...
- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.


I mean like one of the matches had like most of the commentary being about how one of the dudes liked Dungeons and Dragons and going on about that until somebody called the guy a nerd. It definitely wasn't perfect by any stretch.


That actually was the story of how the match happened <_<


Oh well then that's what I get for not watching AEW


MJF posted this online

https://wgp-cdn.co.uk/TTG/png/mjf-dnd-tweet-33882/600/600/

And Cutler was standing up for D&D players everywhere


Okay well then honestly that's actually pretty cool and I'll admit I'm changing gears on it and it was good commentary.

I must've missed the promo and thought it was just random backstory.
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Lopen
10/04/19 12:06:10 AM
#112:


I mean I guess by a stretch I would consider this like WWE in the sense that 2003 WWE is like WWE.

But WWE has adopted so many vile conventions over the years, many of which NXT also has to a lesser extent, that stripping away a lot of them makes it not like WWE at all in its current form.

Really I think my issue is less calling it like WWE and more saying NXT feels more "different" of the two. I think AEW easily feels more different from WWE than NXT does at the moment.
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StealThisSheen
10/04/19 12:08:01 AM
#113:


Lopen posted...
I mean I guess by a stretch I would consider this like WWE in the sense that 2003 WWE is like WWE.

But WWE has adopted so many vile conventions over the years, many of which NXT also has to a lesser extent, that stripping away a lot of them makes it not like WWE at all in its current form.

Really I think my issue is less calling it like WWE and more saying NXT feels more "different" of the two. I think AEW easily feels more different from WWE than NXT does at the moment.


Well, I'm basing it on what I saw this week, and NXT just fell into those common tropes a lot less, so it felt more different.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 12:14:23 AM
#114:


It's just weird how people just revolt at the idea of comparing it to WWE in any way, shape, or form when I'm pretty sure we all liked the WWF/E at one point.

Like if they really wanted to separate themselves from WWE, they should have gone full sports presentation. Advanced stats and stuff. Post-match, show a CompuBox style stat sheet listing all the strikes, grapples, submissions, pinfall attempts, etc.

How many times did we get annoyed at Baron Corbin and a random band of misfit heels beating down the faces at the end of the show? Yet, we get a random band of misfit heels on AEW beating down the faces and people are handwaving it away as somehow different than WWE. No, it's the same. And it's ok to like it. It's even OK to like it more than WWE's show-ending beatdowns. But it's really not different.
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Lopen
10/04/19 12:22:03 AM
#115:


Really for me it boils down to presentation

Do the matches matter
How much are we focusing on the matches and feuds and not random tangential shit
How much smoke are we blowing up our own ass
How organic does the commentary and presentation feel
How dynamic do the matches and segments feel-- am I watching the same match/promo template stamped with different wrestlers/signature moves over and over

My experience with current NXT is limited as I only started watching it again with TV (and missed last week) but I'd call them WWE Jr currently with regards to most of this stuff whereas AEW bucked the trend completely, for me. If we're running a scorecard yeah AEW technically did ticked boxes on things WWE does like dumb guest commentators and stuff but on the actual important irksome stuff they more or less avoided it completely which is great.

Like even the stuff I didn't like it wasn't "this feels particularly like WWE and is dumb" it was "this is dumb in its own way" which is good.

I mean I still watch WWE some so I don't completely hate it or anything so "good WWE" isn't necessarily a bad thing to me either, but this did feel like an alternative to me. Not an NJPW or CHIKARA level of difference or anything, but more different than TNA (post FSN days) ever felt.
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Lopen
10/04/19 12:23:51 AM
#116:


TheRock1525 posted...
It's just weird how people just revolt at the idea of comparing it to WWE in any way, shape, or form when I'm pretty sure we all liked the WWF/E at one point.


I revolt because I think it's incorrect (and in particular with respect to NXT vs AEW similarities to WWE) not because I think that's necessarily a bad thing.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 12:26:05 AM
#117:


Lopen posted...
My experience with current NXT is limited as I only started watching it again with TV (and missed last week) but I'd call them WWE Jr currently with regards to most of this stuff whereas AEW bucked the trend completely, for me.


I honest-to-goodness can't see how you come to this conclusion.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 12:33:13 AM
#118:


Like literally the only match that truly "mattered" on AEW last night was the Women's title match. They spent three matches having shenanigans in order to protect the losing performers. And once again, that's OK. Because now you want to see PAC get his. You want to see Kenny Omega and the Bucks in a fair fight. The whole point of wrestling is set-up and payoff, even within matches themselves. WWE's problem is they either wait too long or don't even bother with a payoff.

Hell, think about the Women's Title match, even that featured an ending that's setting up long-term storylines. They could have just let Riho make a victory speech, her music plays and they set-up the next match, but they didn't.
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Lopen
10/04/19 12:43:34 AM
#119:


It's all on the presentation layer. Like you can say the matches didn't matter but the commentary stressed things like Pac would have a legit argument at getting a title shot with another high profile win here, and how overall win/loss records matter, etc etc. NXT doesn't outright treat matches as meaningless like WWE often does but it doesn't to me feel like many matches matter much beyond in a vacuum a lot of the time.

And I guess the key here is

I don't associate things like
heel faction beatdowns
bad guest commentators
pointless celebrity appearances
dumb unclean finishes (that don't involve distractions/interference into a schoolboy)

With WWE. I associate them with wrestling. WWE overuses them but like it's not inherently a WWE trait for me. It's mostly the stuff I mentioned specifically that gives WWE specifically negative associations for me. That doesn't mean it doesn't have other dumb stuff it does but on the presentation layer those are the important things to avoid and AEW did that and NXT doesn't as much it's mostly the commentary really and I said as much (NXT cutting to commercials during matches more often is also a big thing-- though they did it less last night for at least part of the show I'm not convinced that'll be the norm)

But I mean literally the first segment of NXT on USA's first show was Triple H blowing smoke up NXT's ass to put it in perspective a bit. I'm pretty sure literally every match on the first show ended with a finisher move or distraction too.

To me as far as presentation goes those kind of things are a hell of a lot more important than the arenas looking smaller as far as it feeling like a legit alternative.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 12:51:35 AM
#120:


Lopen posted...
I don't associate things like
heel faction beatdowns
bad guest commentators
pointless celebrity appearances
dumb unclean finishes (that don't involve distractions/interference into a schoolboy)

With WWE. I associate them with wrestling. WWE overuses them but like it's not inherently a WWE trait for me. It's mostly the stuff I mentioned specifically that gives WWE specifically negative associations for me. That doesn't mean it doesn't have other dumb stuff it does but on the presentation layer those are the important things to avoid and AEW did that and NXT doesn't as much it's mostly the commentary really and I said as much (NXT cutting to commercials during matches more often is also a big thing-- though they did it less last night for at least part of the show I'm not convinced that'll be the norm)


But the thing is that NXT does that stuff far less than WWE or (at least based on their first episode) AEW. Outside of the main event, the finishes were clean (I guess you could argue Cole with the cast-shot put into the shenanigan category), the only celebrity was a rapper rapping to wrestlers who have a rap entrance theme, I don't think we've had any guest commentators (let alone bad ones) since NXT has moved to live TV, and has the UE beatdown anyone yet, either?

It's really hard to argue AEW bucks all the trends and NXT is WWE Jr based on the presentation so far.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 12:52:23 AM
#121:


Also, Cole won the match with a Cast Shot then a Last Shot.

I hope he pulls a Bob Orton and wears it for years.
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StealThisSheen
10/04/19 12:58:33 AM
#122:


I'm gonna agree to disagree on the overall argument and get to the real argument

Riho is not worse than AJ Lee and I will not stand for this insult
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 1:01:27 AM
#123:


I get the feeling Riho isn't gonna be the face of the division for long.

It was such a heel heavy show, I think they needed a big face win. But the long term plans aren't there.
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 1:05:31 AM
#124:


Also, I think moving forward NXT should really lean into their women's division where they have a clear edge. They put out two great matches and they could bring back someone like Asuka as a challenger to Baszler.
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Lopen
10/04/19 1:07:02 AM
#125:


Based on the presentation you absolutely can.

You're basing it on the straight content (number of celeb appearances, number of unclean finishes, etc), not the presentation.

Like Pac's BS win felt like it meant more for his card position than most clean wins will on NXT simply because announcers stressed the importance of win/loss records. There isn't going to be an asterisk, it's just 2-0 for him against strong competition.

Will they follow through with it? Well maybe not, but I'm definitely hoping we see lots of low build non-feud formula driven title matches given simply because a guy has accumulated a lot of wins. These are little things that will make or break AEW for feeling like a legitimate alternative.

NXT has always felt like the WWE formula done competently (with less focus on things like promos, but when it does them they kinda feel WWEish) in pretty much every regard for me. That's again, not necessarily bad in and of itself as WWE with competence is certainly enjoyable, but just saying why I think "NXT feels more like an alternative to WWE than AEW does" is a weird statement to make and I really think the size of the arena/set style is skewing perception there.
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 1:14:24 AM
#126:


Yeah they should definitely point out that Pac has the exact same singles record Jericho does

2-0, with wins over Omega and Page
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 1:59:36 AM
#127:


Street Profits should be pissed at Ciampa for clearly assuming they would lose so he could come out and confront Adam Cole
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TheRock1525
10/04/19 2:13:08 AM
#128:


He does not approve of the smoke.
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Eddv
10/04/19 4:02:24 AM
#129:


Lopen posted...
It's all on the presentation layer. Like you can say the matches didn't matter but the commentary stressed things like Pac would have a legit argument at getting a title shot with another high profile win here, and how overall win/loss records matter, etc etc. NXT doesn't outright treat matches as meaningless like WWE often does but it doesn't to me feel like many matches matter much beyond in a vacuum a lot of the time.

And I guess the key here is

I don't associate things like
heel faction beatdowns
bad guest commentators
pointless celebrity appearances
dumb unclean finishes (that don't involve distractions/interference into a schoolboy)

With WWE. I associate them with wrestling. WWE overuses them but like it's not inherently a WWE trait for me. It's mostly the stuff I mentioned specifically that gives WWE specifically negative associations for me. That doesn't mean it doesn't have other dumb stuff it does but on the presentation layer those are the important things to avoid and AEW did that and NXT doesn't as much it's mostly the commentary really and I said as much (NXT cutting to commercials during matches more often is also a big thing-- though they did it less last night for at least part of the show I'm not convinced that'll be the norm)

But I mean literally the first segment of NXT on USA's first show was Triple H blowing smoke up NXT's ass to put it in perspective a bit. I'm pretty sure literally every match on the first show ended with a finisher move or distraction too.

To me as far as presentation goes those kind of things are a hell of a lot more important than the arenas looking smaller as far as it feeling like a legit alternative.


+1
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Steiner
10/04/19 4:07:59 AM
#130:


i also agree with a lot of what lopen has said here

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Panthera
10/04/19 5:55:05 AM
#131:


Lopen posted...

Like Pac's BS win felt like it meant more for his card position than most clean wins will on NXT simply because announcers stressed the importance of win/loss records. There isn't going to be an asterisk, it's just 2-0 for him against strong competition.


My opinion doesn't really matter at this point since I'm largely done with wrestling, but this just strikes me as saying the whole win/loss record thing is a self-admitted farce. You can't do some sort of real ranking system, then also do standard pro wrestling bullshit finishes and have it fit together. If wins matter, whoever is running the show has to care when their matches are ruined. If they don't care, the wins and losses can't be all that big a deal besides giving guys momentum.
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Maniac64
10/04/19 7:44:04 AM
#132:


I mean the Denver Broncos have two losses in part because of two questionable late roughing the passer penalties. But no asterisk there.

Shenanigans happen in the NFL all the time and the records still stand. The NBA has literally put out post match reports admitting that the refs made bad calls that decided the winner, but the win still stands.

It just happens a bit more often in wrestling, but the same rules apply. Referees call is final. If they miss something to bad. Once the winner is decided it cant be reversed.
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Eddv
10/04/19 7:53:51 AM
#133:


Maniac64 posted...
I mean the Denver Broncos have two losses in part because of two questionable late roughing the passer penalties. But no asterisk there.

Shenanigans happen in the NFL all the time and the records still stand. The NBA has literally put out post match reports admitting that the refs made bad calls that decided the winner, but the win still stands.

It just happens a bit more often in wrestling, but the same rules apply. Referees call is final. If they miss something to bad. Once the winner is decided it cant be reversed.


To that end Excalibur actually name dropped that they're tracking referee quality too in kayfabe - Aubrey Edwards apparently has the highest score and Earl the lowest.

So Earl missing a call is actually in character for Earl being older and less competent.
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Panthera
10/04/19 8:03:56 AM
#134:


Maniac64 posted...
I mean the Denver Broncos have two losses in part because of two questionable late roughing the passer penalties. But no asterisk there.

Shenanigans happen in the NFL all the time and the records still stand. The NBA has literally put out post match reports admitting that the refs made bad calls that decided the winner, but the win still stands.

It just happens a bit more often in wrestling, but the same rules apply. Referees call is final. If they miss something to bad. Once the winner is decided it cant be reversed.


I mean, there's nothing in pro sports that compares to the level of bullshit that pro wrestling goes with. If an NFL player waited until the refs weren't looking then took off his helmet and bludgeoned the opposing quarterback unconscious with it, the result of the game itself might stand, but the player who did it would be suspended for the rest of the year. And MMA decisions can get turned into no contests if there was something clearly wrong with the original result. It's just impossible for me to buy into the notion that a wrestling show is serious about this stuff when they use traditional wrestling dirty finishes anyway. Hell, it's part of why heel authority figures work, at least you can sometimes tell yourself the story is that show *is* run by a scumbag who has zero interest in seeing any sort of genuine competition and just cares about controversial stuff happening to attract attention.
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RPGlord95
10/04/19 8:06:31 AM
#135:


I now want pro wrestling logic in sports.

Ref is reviewing another call. Meanwhile the QB sneaks up and stomps the other teams players ankle
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Tom Bombadil
10/04/19 9:11:53 AM
#136:


pitcher throws an easy HR ball, takes off his jersey, and underneath is the jersey of the batting team

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Lopen
10/04/19 10:26:31 AM
#137:


I don't really think "b-b-but he cheated" has to matter unless the established internal logic on the show, as it does in WWE (when they want it to), dictates it has to. As long as you never start putting that asterisk it doesn't exist and heels still work as a thing. Once you start doing so only then does it matter if a dude is cheating.

Like is your complaint why isn't everyone trying to cheat?

- Certain characters have scruples and won't want to even if it'll help them win
- The risk of the referee seeing it and disqualifying is real (well, you'd think anyway-- lol Moxley interference)

If your complaint is it should have an asterisk, why? Cause a dude with the strongest record might not necessarily be the "best"? This happens in sports too due to strength of schedule, botched calls, injuries, just plain luck, and a variety of other things
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Lopen
10/04/19 10:36:45 AM
#138:


I will say the big thing I'm a little worried about is disqualifications. Abusive ones (ala the heel dqing themselves to retain a title) in particular. I can't actually find a way for those to exist and for win/loss records to not feel like a farce as you're literally just abusing loopholes in the rules. Say what you will about hitting a guy in the nuts to win, at least one competitor is defeating another. DQ is literally the ref deciding the match.

I hope the show just never introduces that as a viable thing cause I think it introduces too many logic holes
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 10:38:44 AM
#139:


Well, the way wrestling is SUPPOSED to work, getting yourself DQed to retain a title is supposed to lead to a stipulation match that levels the playing field for the babyface
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 10:40:31 AM
#140:


But really, your W/L record shouldnt really matter that much WHILE youre a Champion.

But if you lose a lot while Champion, that poor W/L record should move you much farther back in line once you do drop the title
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Lopen
10/04/19 10:45:19 AM
#141:


I guess so. That's kind of an interesting plot thread, scummy champion who dqs themselves lots now can't get any title shots cause they buried their record so far while champ

I guess it only becomes a problem once guys start Eddie Guerreroing DQ victories for themselves
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ZeroSignal620
10/04/19 10:11:33 PM
#142:


For a moment I thought that was the shortest WWE title match that wasn't a cash-in

Diesel's squash remains the record!
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Jakyl25
10/04/19 10:12:12 PM
#143:


What a sad end to Kofimania
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ZeroSignal620
10/04/19 10:17:47 PM
#144:


Brock's now an 8 time world champion.

9 if you count UFC
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BeTheMan
10/04/19 10:30:57 PM
#145:


This is absolutely brilliant. Adding Velasquez and Fury in the same night means that they're redefining what the heavyweight division in WWE is going to be going forward - arguably a top draw for heavyweight prizefighters everywhere, which meant Kofi needed to get squashed. This is how they separate themselves from AEW.
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Tom Bombadil
10/04/19 10:31:10 PM
#146:


now I have one less reason to give WWE another shot!

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ZeroSignal620
10/04/19 10:37:16 PM
#147:


Current yearly streaks for first time champs...

WWE - Only 2019 with Kofi. 2018's only world title winners were Reigns, Lesnar, and Bryan.

IC - First-time champion every year since 1986

US - First-time champion every year since 1993 (Unless you count the inactivity in 2002, in which case it would be 2003 instead)

Tag Team - First-time champion every year since 2010

Women's - First-time champion every year since 2006. At risk of ending this year, as the only superstars to win a Women's title on the main roster have been Charlotte, Becky, and Bayley.
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scarletspeed7
10/04/19 10:37:24 PM
#148:


I like how MWC thinks Smackdown is the competition for AEW.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
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NBIceman
10/04/19 10:39:00 PM
#149:


Oh, damn, is that another MWC account?
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https://imgur.com/UYamul2
Spurs - Yankees - Eagles - Golden Knights
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scarletspeed7
10/04/19 10:40:04 PM
#150:


I have no idea! But it seems like the sort of thing he would say.
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"It is too easy being monsters. Let us try to be human." ~Victor Frankenstein, Penny Dreadful
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