Board 8 > All-Purpose Wrestling Topic 489: Nick Gage was Robbed

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well Shida is to me obviously the better of the two joshi but it's hard to argue with what was likely my favorite match of the night

Despite her greenness Nyla has some great instincts and mannerisms and should develop quickly working with the joshi.
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Eddv posted...

likely my favorite match of the night

o_O

that was the only point in the show I spent much of any attention on NXT on the splitscreen my buddy was running

that and the part where both shows took like ten minutes to get everybody entered for the main events but NXT had dudes jumping around in the crowd

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i think i may have cody/sammy slightly higher but yeah, i also loved riho/nyla. just a classic pro wrestling setup with a undersized underdog vs a beast heel, where riho got on top believably. there was some sloppiness but nyla's covering for it added to the match imo - the way she carried herself after riho botched with the sense of "you gotta be stronger than that do do that to me" was a great touch. the best women's presentation aew have done yet

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oh man I get to be the guy with the hot take again I guess

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https://twitter.com/trevordame/status/1179699125245231105?s=21

"Flair and Hogan by the way, just absolutely carried that Raw rating". Dave says he was just saying in the modern era there are no stars and no one really moves ratings these days. Well, 500k turned in for Hogan and Flair and then tuned right back out again. They're stars.

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Tom Bombadil posted...

oh man I get to be the guy with the hot take again I guess

Oh, just wait until I put my thoughts down later.
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NBIceman posted...

Oh, just wait until I put my thoughts down later.

uh oh

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Oh boy I can't wait to join the joshi elitism squad when I watch later today
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This image screams NXT to me

https://twitter.com/SCOTTHALLNWO/status/1179674237709275136?s=19
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So, folks here, especially if they also frequent the Discord, know that I've been probably more bullish on AEW's chances of success than the vast majority of fans. That goes back to last year, before AEW was technically even a thing, where I was one of the first people I saw saying that All In would not only sell out but sell out quickly and convincingly. I was right on that prediction, just as I've been right more recently with how well the AEW PPVs have done. So with all that being said, I hope I'm proven very, very wrong on the sorts of things I'm about to say.

Much of my optimism for AEW, both as a product that would appeal to my personal wrestling tastes and as one that could be a legitimately strong competitor in the market, has been based in the idea that they would be the first real alternative to WWE that mainstream audiences had ever really seen. WCW was not truly that different from WWE. Their "win condition," so to speak, was being "WWE, but better." TNA, no matter how much they claimed otherwise, was the same thing. Promotions like ECW and ROH never had the financial backing or production value.

Tony Khan has been saying all the right things to make me believe that AEW was really going to break the mold. Win/Loss records, which I've wanted some promotion to commit to FOREVER. He hates screwy finishes and wanted to limit the BS in matches in general. He doesn't like the "invisible camera" backstage segments. They have, for the most part, practiced what they preached on the PPVs. The only fuck finish has been the Brandi/Allie match at Fight for the Fallen, which I don't think anybody cared about anyway because Brandi Rhodes will never be a thing.

But then we get to Dynamite.

- Cody/Sammy was a very good match that the crowd was into and I can't overstate how thrilled I am that Guevara is getting an opportunity on a stage like this after years of me watching him in mediocre Texas indies wondering why nowhere big wanted him. But the longer this went, the more annoying things happened. Brandi gets taken out on a suicide dive because she was standing by Sammy for no freaking reason. So we have our first instance of attention being drawn away from the two guys actually wrestling, for however brief a time. Then, while the ref's back is turned, she hits Sammy with a shoe or whatever. It doesn't lead to the finish, at least, but I also don't get why it was necessary. Then, we have Sammy kicking out of all these big moves and losing to a rollup. A very clear hierarchy had been previously established here. Sammy lost to Kip Sabian on the DON preshow, who then lost to Hangman Page, who then lost to Chris Jericho, who Cody is challenging for the world title. The rollup finish is WWE bullshit already - why does the first title challenger have to use one to beat a guy like Guevara?
- So, to recap, the very first match that AEW decided to show to hundreds of thousands of first-time watchers included a) a manager spot, b) manager interference, and c) a rollup finish. The only reason this isn't true of 75% of WWE TV matches is that they don't use managers. Meanwhile, NXT has Cole vs Riddle in a straight, no-BS wrestling match. Don't like those optics.
- Jericho attacks Cody after the match. No problem with this. Good segment.
- Cutler/MJF, again, exactly what it should've been. MJF got a live mic, did what he does, and won a quick match. I'm not as in love with MJF as most are, but they clearly see a star in him and so I'm glad that they're committing to presenting him like one. That's how you build stars.
- The segment with Los Gueros del Cielo and the B-list celebrities in the front row was not good. That's more WWE-esque shit. At least it was short, though. Chris Van Vliet should never be in the position of hype man. He's a good interview guy, keep him there.
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- The best comment I saw on the Lucha Bros/SCU segment was "They just did in 2 minutes what would've taken WWE 10 or 15." I don't think an angle like this is necessary to build heat for the tournament - the tournament itself should be heat enough - but if you're gonna do it, keep it short like this.
- Page/PAC was on its way to being a damn awesome match, and then PAC squared Page in the balls off a ref distraction. People are going to tell me that PAC is "THE BASTARD" and it's well within his gimmick to win matches this way. I would tend to agree. But if that's the case, maybe you shouldn't have all the shenanigans in the opening match. It was at this point in the Discord that Whiskey Nick, who watches only WWE and who presumably is the kind of fan AEW wants to convert, said "Yeah, this seems a lot like WWE so far." That is a terrible, terrible sign.
- Again, to recap, there have been three matches on this show. Two had shenanigans and a screwy finish. The other was essentially a squash.
- Nyla Rose vs Riho... was tough. There's definitely things I liked about it, bur Rose doesn't impress me at all, and I couldn't shake the feeling that I watched an Ice Ribbon match a couple weeks back that was pretty much exactly what this match was trying to be, but better. That's on me, though. Usually I can judge a match in a vacuum without comparing it to a similar one, but for whatever reason I couldn't do that here. What isn't on me is that I probably checked out mentally as soon as Nyla started trying to swing the chair. The heel is dominating the match and yet is apparently willing to risk a DQ in the first ever women's title match. Can we just have wrestlers not be morons, please? That'd be a really easy way to separate yourself from the competition.
- Britt Baker on commentary was the worst thing on the show. It's more WWE bullshit to have someone only tangentially related to the match join commentary and then contribute nothing. I was willing to accept it since I figured she'd be involved in an angle afterwards, but then Omega makes the save instead. So what was the point?
- This is admittedly a nitpick, but Omega's involvement irritated me a bit. His match is next. Don't you want to save his first appearance for that entrance to get the biggest pop possible?
- The main event was the most entertaining match on the show, and I don't even have a problem with the whole Mox thing. I do wish the commentary had at least tried to explain away why it wasn't a DQ, but unless I missed it, they didn't. I don't need much. "Well, Omega wasn't the legal man at the time." "Well, Rick Knox is the ref for this match, and he doesn't like to call for DQs." Anything.
- I don't have the words to adequately describe the feeling of disappointment when, during the big show-closing brawl, I get a tiny voice in the back of my head saying "How incredible would it be if the lights went out and we got Super Dragon?" only for the big surprise to indeed be Jack Swagger, who I just have no use for.
- Those personal issues aside, I think the angle was good. It's refreshing to see a brawl where friends of the guys involved actually show up instead of just watching them get beat down backstage. I really hope they don't make a habit of ending shows with some big angle, but for the debut show and for what it was meant to accomplish I get it.

Here's the bottom line: were it not for the tag tournament starting next week, I don't think I'd be looking forward to the second episode very much. I don't think this was a bad debut, but I had enough big problems with it that I also can't say I liked it much. This may have been "WWE, but better," but I don't believe AEW can succeed to its true potential by being WWE, but better. They need to be a true alternative. We'll know for sure when ratings come out, but it won't shock me if there were big drops in viewership after, like, PAC/Page. I hope I'm wrong.
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I should mention that I really did like how much they talked about the W/L records, but I wish they'd have gone into more detail about why Cody was getting the title match with Jericho instead of entering into a #1 contender's match with Page or something. I can justify it to myself and understand the kayfabe thought process completely, but I know I've had conversations with people who were a little confused on that booking and it would've been good to explain it to fans who were interested in the concept of such records. Again, anything to separate yourself from the notion of what mainstream American wrestling is nowadays.
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NBIceman posted...

WCW was not truly that different from WWE. Their "win condition," so to speak, was being "WWE, but better."

I don't have anything to say about the show yet as I haven't seen it yet but I very much disagree with this assessment of what WCW was. WCW was different than WWF when they were "winning the war" as it were. Then WWF shifted and made their win condition to be "WCW, but better" and succeeded at it. But WCW was doing a lot of things with their edgier more realistic presentation and stuff like the Cruiserweight division that WWF just wasn't doing at the time, when they were in the driver's seat.

That being said I agree AEW does need to do this and I'm really upset reading that a match ended in a roll up. Like if you wanted to piss me off there isn't much of anything that you could do that would upset me more.
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Lopen posted...

upset reading that a match ended in a roll up. Like if you wanted to piss me off there isn't much of anything that you could do that would upset me more.

Here comes the hill Jakyl wants to die on.
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I don't even think rollups are inherently a bad thing, but they need to be used sparingly. Or they need to really be put over. I loved the period of ROH when Danielson was winning a ton of matches with the small package and the commentators would always talk about how he just did that move better than everyone else. It just didn't work in the context of the Sammy/Cody match. Or in the context of the rest of the show.

That's the thing, hardly any of what I talked about is a bad thing in a vacuum. But when you put them all together I think it sends a very bad message on a debut episode.

By the way, I can't believe I forgot to talk about the camera. What is American wrestling's fascination with camera cuts on every move impact? I can watch puro promotions and go a full minute without seeing a cut sometimes. It looks better and seems like it'd even be easier to produce! The crowd reaction shots have to go, too. They haven't had an actual good one yet.
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As somebody who has never watched AEW before, my takes from last night basically could be summed up as:

AEW was WWE but better
NXT was what I thought AEW was going to be

That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy AEW, because I like WWE when it's good, and AEW basically felt like good WWE. It just wasn't different at all, I felt like I was watching more of the same but with atleast semi-competent writers. But if I feel like watching something "different," after last night I'd pick NXT.
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Small package is not a roll up

I mean it is, but that's not what I mean

The school boy is generally the type of roll up that's bad. Any other form of roll up usually requires a bit more nuance and subtlety to convincingly set-up. As long as the distraction and shock value comes entirely from the two competitors in the match and not some external factor, I don't mind them as much. Particularly with something like a victory roll or a small package as they seem fundamentally more difficult to escape than a dude just flipping you over from behind.

As I understand it manager distraction likely led to that roll up finish so yeah I'm sure I'll hate it.
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It didn't lead directly to it, no. And yes, it was a small package - I guess I refer to it as a rollup for convenience sake and maybe I shouldn't do that. So it might not annoy you as much as I seem to have inadvertently led you to believe.
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I mean small packages are very difficult to escape so that is a solid way to win a match for me. You have trapped your opponent in a winning move they can't escape. Maybe it isnt as impactful as knocking them out or making them tap but it is a completely legit way to win. You outsmarted and out wrestled them.
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Lopen posted...

As I understand it manager distraction likely led to that roll up finish so yeah I'm sure I'll hate it.

I mean you'll see but the odd thing about the manager angle is that it in general played very little actual role in the match beyond establishing that Sammy=Bad Guy.
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When I think of "lazy WWE style roll-up" I definitely am not thinking of a small package in any case

When was the last time a WWE match ended with a small package I don't even know
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Lopen posted...

When I think of "lazy WWE style roll-up" I definitely am not thinking of a small package in any case

When was the last time a WWE match ended with a small package I don't even know

Bryan did it at a PPV a few months ago

And yes it was not a distraction small package. Sammy was using high flying to give Cody problems, so Cody used a strength, mat wrestling, to win
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HashtagSEP posted...

As somebody who has never watched AEW before, my takes from last night basically could be summed up as:

AEW was WWE but better
NXT was what I thought AEW was going to be

That doesn't mean I didn't enjoy AEW, because I like WWE when it's good, and AEW basically felt like good WWE. It just wasn't different at all, I felt like I was watching more of the same but with atleast semi-competent writers. But if I feel like watching something "different," after last night I'd pick NXT.

This was my genuine take away.

AEW was good WWE, which is a good thing.

NXT still has a more unique feel to it thanks to the intimate presentation at Full Sail. Long term I think they'll become a touring brand and become more WWE like in presentation and feel.

Will AEW revolutionize wrestling? Absolutely not. Will it be good wrestling programming? Likely yes. Most of the criticisms towards their show being micro instead of macro is a huge point in their favor.
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TheRock1525 posted...

Will AEW revolutionize wrestling? Absolutely not

I think their existence has already done this
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One thing to say is that AEW can do a show of that caliber every week

NXT cant do a Takeover every week
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I'll likely choose watching AEW live anyway since what I currently want is "good WWE" moreso than something different.
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NBIceman posted...

It's more WWE bulls*** to have someone only tangentially related to the match join commentary and then contribute nothing.

Objection: in WWE the guest commentators speak, occasionally

NBIceman posted...

I do wish the commentary had at least tried to explain away why it wasn't a DQ, but unless I missed it, they didn't. I don't need much.

very this. I'd have met them halfway if they had made any kinda attempt.....and Omega WAS the legal man at the time, wasn't he?

NBIceman posted...

What is American wrestling's fascination with camera cuts on every move impact? I can watch puro promotions and go a full minute without seeing a cut sometimes. It looks better and seems like it'd even be easier to produce! The crowd reaction shots have to go, too. They haven't had an actual good one yet.

very this, too

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Boom goes the Dynamite

AEW: 1.409M
NXT: 891K
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Not bad. What was Raw usually drawing on non Flair/Hogan nights again?
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https://www.f4wonline.com/sites/www.f4wonline.com/files/u14296/sd_last_10_weeks_24.png

Heres the last 10 weeks of Raw and SD

(That big Raw at the start was Raw Reunion)
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I wonder how much dropoff we will see when it's now the season premiere. I'm sure they got a bump from it being the first ever episode but I also wonder what they do if they aren't head to head with NXT

What was TNA doing when head to head with WWE again?

Steiner posted...

TheRock1525 posted...

Will AEW revolutionize wrestling? Absolutely not

I think their existence has already done this

Genuine top level competition in American wrestling IS revolutionary.

Experimental wrestling like Lucha Underground didn't last very long.
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So AEW took about 100k from NXT then.

AEW was still short of the 1.5 million prediction, but that's an awesome number. Really happy it did good.
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ShatteredElysium posted...

I wonder how much dropoff we will see when it's now the season premiere. I'm sure they got a bump from it being the first ever episode but I also wonder what they do if they aren't head to head with NXT

What was TNA doing when head to head with WWE again?

1/4/10 Test run
Raw: 5.6M
Impact: 2.2M

3/8/10 permanent move
Raw: 5.1M
Impact: 1.4M

3/15/10
Raw: 5.6M
Impact: 1.1M

And TNA kept dropping from there down to around 600k and fled back to Thursday by popular demand
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Vince would probably literally murder Shane for those numbers again
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Jakyl25 posted...

Boom goes the Dynamite

AEW: 1.409M

Jakyl25 posted...

1/4/10 Test run
Impact: 2.2M

Peak TNA > AEW vindication !!!
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Jakyl25 posted...

Vince would probably literally murder Shane for those numbers again

He'd murder Shane just as long as he could get away with it
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I like that WWE and AEW are best friends

Congratulations to AEW on a successful premiere. The real winners of last nights head-to-head telecasts of NXT on USA Network and AEW on TNT are the fans, who can expect Wednesday nights to be a competitive and wild ride as this is a marathon, not a one-night sprint.- WWE
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Steiner posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Vince would probably literally murder Shane for those numbers again

He'd murder Shane just as long as he could get away with it

Seriously. When did he start needing a reason?
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Vince hasn't done fucking anything for an actual reason for over a decade.

Why start now?
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I saw that NXT drew 414k in the 18-49 demographic, meaning over half their audience is either little kids or old farts.

Weird.
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Oh, wow. AEW doubled NXT in the 18-49 demo apparently.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSQ-Obh0O98" data-time="

Bray Wyatt in-character on Good Day Sacramento.
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I really love that they played the firefly funhouse theme for the entire segment
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From the Observer:

''The night opened with 1,609,000 viewers for AEW and 913,000 for NXT. NXT with Riddle vs. Cole closed the gap to 1,551,000 to 981,000 against Cody vs. Sammy Guevara. MJF vs. Brandon Cutler lost 111,000 viewers vs. Io Shirai vs Mia Yim losing 15,000. Pac vs. Adam Page lost 125,000 viewers while Johnny Gargano vs. Shane Thorne lost 50,000. Riho vs. Rose lost 1,000 while Shayna Baszler vs. Candice LeRae lost 20,000. Pete Dunne vs. Danny Burch gained 29,000 viewers. The six-man main event of AEW gained 67,000 viewers while the NXT tag title match with Bobby Fish & Kyle OReilly vs. Street Profits head-to-head lost 193,000 viewers in the final quarter. However, when AEW ended, NXT did pick up 139,000 viewers in the final ten minutes.''
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Yeah I loved AEW and don't get "this is like WWE" comments. I mean by a stretch I would say the camerawork was like WWE? Definitely feel like NXT feels more like WWE than AEW does. I feel like the fact that NXT's set/arena looks so ghetto is clouding the more important stuff

Big things AEW does that I feel are different

- There is almost no focus on the organization of AEW or Twitter or anything not directly related to the competitors. Almost all commentary is focused on the on the match and relevant backstory to the match exclusively. NXT while not as bad as WWE with this still puts itself over too much and puts too much attention on non-match things I think.
- Announcers show enthusiasm and passion and it feels genuine. Mauro just feels like he's faking it to me too often-- probably because he is the only announcer who feels enthusiastic so it's glaring. More even load on AEW with hype.
- Match style lacks the formulaic approach WWE has of getting all your spots in and hitting your finish. This is true of both shows to some extent when compared to WWE but NXT to me still feels like "WWE given time" pretty often whereas AEW not as much. Half the matches didn't even end with a finishing move I don't think. Well I admittedly don't know Riho's finish but I dont think that was her finisher? Didn't feel like one.
- The in ring action is just treated as more important. The opener went like 20 minutes with no commercials-- unheard of! When there was one, JR stressed that there would be picture in picture and to tune in for the whole match.
- They were going for a lot of post match interviews which if some of these actually end up working instead of just being gateways to ambushes as they were this week could add a lot of flavor as far as making it feel sportslike.
- Intros were basic. Basically dudes just went to the ring. This is good because I don't get compelled to skip them.

Amount of shenanigans were overblown a bit. Moxley in the main event was the only thing that really crossed a line for me. Cody's roll up was fine and felt like a legit win. Pac cheating is fine too imo. I'm okay with wins that aren't decisive if they feel earned. I'm okay with in match shenanigans if they don't directly lead to a finish too. The problem with WWE bs is it's so frequently rooted in things not directly under the control of the wrestlers in the match like interference, or depend on the victim/ref being an idiot. Hitting a dude in the nuts when the ref is organically distracted? Great!

What I would really like going forward is for intro graphics for matches to have the wrestler records. That'd really drive home that wins and losses matter I think.

But yeah commentary is just so important to me and like if you swap NXT's commentary team with AEW's I could maybe be singing a different tune overall. Tony goddamn Schiavone I'm so happy. JR and Excalibur did great too. The girl in the women's match tried to kill it but whatever.
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Now if you want me to be negative about something? Just as I called, and trust me I really wanted to like her but...

Riho sucks. She reminds me a lot of AJ Lee, and I mean that in the worst way. Her offense is just not credible for her build and she didn't do well to gain sympathy from me in the match as I don't think she sold well enough or showed enough fire. Heck AJ might be better at least she had some entertaining ragdoll selling. Nyla isn't terrible-- she was big and not overly sloppy which makes her usable at worst-- but wasn't exactly good either. Wasn't an awful match-- none of them were (well MJP match was pretty questionable), but yeah if this is your women's division you need to try harder. This was 2008 WWE Divas division given 20 minutes, nothing better than that.
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Also I have no problem with Jake Hager in a tangential to the main event level role. Jericho's muscle is fine.

He's got legit wrestling and MMA chops, is big so has some base credibility there, and has been out of the WWE limelight for many many years now but still has people who know who he is. He's also decent in the ring as a wrestler.

I think goofy Hager would be best long term but you want to start him strong and legitimate first, get that WWE stink fully off, then get a bit more cute with him. Maybe a bit of a hard sell as a hire but I wouldn't necessarily call it a mistake if used right and I think he will be.
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I always like reading comments on random sites and Reddit threads that consistently are surprised at how deceptively big Hager is.

He was a head taller than everyone in the ring except for Dustin, and for the Swagger mark in me, its nice to see him noticeably bigger than everyone around him.

I know he has the MMA background now, but I do hope he sticks to a mostly body slam and suplex offense in AEW
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Lopen posted...

What I would really like going forward is for intro graphics for matches to have the wrestler records. That'd really drive home that wins and losses matter I think.

Uhhh

Every entrance graphic had these
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