Board 8 > Politics Containment Topic 231: The Sleepy One

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Ashethan
07/30/19 8:40:51 PM
#201:


LordoftheMorons posted...
A lot of people don't want to gamble on the government run program being better than their private insurance. With a public option there's a fallback if they fuck it up.


On the other side of the coin: Why would the government try to provide the best coverage, when they can take money from lobbyists in the private industry to provide less coverage, leaving those who can't afford insurance with a weaker government insurance?

Tie people's insurance to their politicians, and you'll see a quick change in what level of care politicians want their constituents to get. (This is why conservatives don't want Single-Payer)
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Reg
07/30/19 8:41:10 PM
#202:


like, I didn't actually think you were going back to Harris's stupid soundbite because we already discussed that one and agreed it was fucking stupid
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pyresword
07/30/19 8:42:41 PM
#203:


I actually agree with red sox here. The ignorant masses are the ones electing people so they kind of have to be catered to. It's built into the system.

Obviously yes you can make attempts to educate the masses also, but you can't ignore what they're saying they want just because you think they don't really know what they want.
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xp1337
07/30/19 8:42:41 PM
#204:


Getting rid of private insurance is not going to be a feasible position from an electoral standpoint regardless of the reality that single-payer provides coverage anyway. LotM is correct that the prospect of people who currently have insurance "losing" it to a single-payer plan is something that turns off a lot of people. You can argue whether it should but if you're banking on the ability to properly educate the electorate over the non-stop BS the right and insurance companies will throw at it... you have far more faith in people than I.

Public option/"Medicare for America" is the position that enjoys majority support and the one that I think could actually get passed provided Democrats regain the Senate.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 8:44:05 PM
#205:


Reg posted...
LordoftheMorons posted...
You're not reading what I'm saying. There is at least one candidate (Harris) who is claiming that middle class people will pay nothing for health insurance. Not less total, nothing.

Furthermore, people very well could be paying more under Bernie's plan because it covers literally everything besides like cosmetic surgery 100% without copays or deductibles.
We've literally been over that exact line. Harris said something really stupid with that one, nobody's going to deny that.

But if you actually think the taxes necessary to pay for public healthcare like any first-world country on this planet are going to be more than the extortionist premiums that health insurance companies currently charge, you're ignorant or lying.


If you think his expressed fear is wrong, why are you attacking him with expletives and a complete lack of actual arguments? That's practically an admission that the very thing you accuse him of saying (not what he said) is correct and so compelling that you immediately resort to rude expletives. #ThisIsWhyYouLost.
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Grimlyn
07/30/19 8:44:55 PM
#206:


pyresword posted...
I actually agree with red sox here. The ignorant masses are the ones electing people so they kind of have to be catered to. It's built into the system.

Obviously yes you can make attempts to educate the masses also, but you can't ignore what they're saying they want just because you think they don't really know what they want.

The problem is how heavily lopsided this is weighted to the point everybody scaremongers smart policy and spreads populist garbage against it.
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Grimlyn
07/30/19 8:45:28 PM
#207:


and man Bernie is doing fucking fantastic
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xp1337
07/30/19 8:46:47 PM
#208:


pyresword posted...
but you can't ignore what they're saying they want just because you think they don't really know what they want.

i mean sure you can

That's what the Republican party does! Most of the Democratic platform enjoys majority support, if not 60+%, not to mention things like background checks which have ~90% approval.

Again, it's a double-standard, reinforced by money in politics and the heavily anti-democratic nature of the Senate. It's never seemingly a problem when the right does this.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 8:50:50 PM
#209:


xp1337 posted...
pyresword posted...
but you can't ignore what they're saying they want just because you think they don't really know what they want.

i mean sure you can

That's what the Republican party does! Most of the Democratic platform enjoys majority support, if not 60+%, not to mention things like background checks which have ~90% approval.

Again, it's a double-standard, reinforced by money in politics and the heavily anti-democratic nature of the Senate. It's never seemingly a problem when the right does this.


Romney did it and lost. McCain did it and lost.
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pyresword
07/30/19 8:51:59 PM
#210:


I didn't mean that in a moral sense. I meant it in a purely functional "you will not be elected and cannot accomplish anything if you do this" sense. The ideas you're referring to have majority support in the country as a whole but not within the constituencies these Republican politicians represent, so as far as the system is concerned they are listening to what the people want.
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xp1337
07/30/19 8:55:09 PM
#211:


pyresword posted...
The ideas you're referring to have majority support in the country as a whole but not within the constituencies these Republican politicians represent

Not always true!

Gun control is the obvious one, would have to dig around for polling on some of the other issues, but I suspect in a fair number of R districts that's not true.
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Reg
07/30/19 8:55:17 PM
#212:


anyways, moderation for this debate is complete and utter shit

it's hardly worth watching tbh
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Nelson_Mandela
07/30/19 8:57:23 PM
#213:


The better Bernie does, the better Biden's chances are (Bernie will draw Warren's support). So I guess I'm pro Bernie. I'm really excited at the prospect of our first election in a generation with two decent candidates facing off for the good of the nation.
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Nelson_Mandela
07/30/19 8:58:19 PM
#214:


Reg posted...
anyways, moderation for this debate is complete and utter shit

it's hardly worth watching tbh

Aww getting mad because an actual journalist with integrity (Tapper) isn't lobbing softballs?
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:01:06 PM
#215:


Reg posted...
anyways, moderation for this debate is complete and utter shit

it's hardly worth watching tbh


The moderation is great. It's the time limits they've selected that are shit.
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Jakyl25
07/30/19 9:01:07 PM
#216:


Lol you dont respect Tapper
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:02:00 PM
#217:


xp1337 posted...
pyresword posted...
The ideas you're referring to have majority support in the country as a whole but not within the constituencies these Republican politicians represent

Not always true!

Gun control is the obvious one, would have to dig around for polling on some of the other issues, but I suspect in a fair number of R districts that's not true.


It also matters how much people care about an issue. If 90% of the voters support gun control but the 10% are all swing voters and this is their #1 issue, the 10% matter more.
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Nelson_Mandela
07/30/19 9:03:01 PM
#218:


Jakyl25 posted...
Lol you dont respect Tapper

Dartmouth grad. He's a good dude.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:04:30 PM
#219:


Nelson_Mandela posted...
The better Bernie does, the better Biden's chances are (Bernie will draw Warren's support). So I guess I'm pro Bernie. I'm really excited at the prospect of our first election in a generation with two decent candidates facing off for the good of the nation.


Trump vs Bernie? The first without a Democrat since the 1820s!
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Reg
07/30/19 9:05:07 PM
#220:


Inviso posted...
The moderation is great. It's the time limits they've selected that are shit.
Tapper is literally doing pretty much nothing but trying to get "gotcha" soundbites out of the candidates.

I will say the degree of control they're actually exercising is very nice and refreshing

But Tapper's attempt to get those "gotchas" is idiocy.
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Nelson_Mandela
07/30/19 9:07:32 PM
#221:


Reg posted...
Inviso posted...
The moderation is great. It's the time limits they've selected that are shit.
Tapper is literally doing pretty much nothing but trying to get "gotcha" soundbites out of the candidates.

I will say the degree of control they're actually exercising is very nice and refreshing

But Tapper's attempt to get those "gotchas" is idiocy.

How dare he ask them simple yes/no questions!
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Nelson_Mandela
07/30/19 9:08:27 PM
#222:


red sox 777 posted...
Nelson_Mandela posted...
The better Bernie does, the better Biden's chances are (Bernie will draw Warren's support). So I guess I'm pro Bernie. I'm really excited at the prospect of our first election in a generation with two decent candidates facing off for the good of the nation.


Trump vs Bernie? The first without a Democrat since the 1820s!

Nah Trump vs Biden. The first time two good people represent the major parties since maybe 1960.
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:09:10 PM
#223:


Reg posted...
Inviso posted...
The moderation is great. It's the time limits they've selected that are shit.
Tapper is literally doing pretty much nothing but trying to get "gotcha" soundbites out of the candidates.

I will say the degree of control they're actually exercising is very nice and refreshing

But Tapper's attempt to get those "gotchas" is idiocy.


Yeah, I'm referring specifically to the control over interruptions.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:10:05 PM
#224:


Marianne Williamson delivering great points. The problems are structural in the Democratic Party and won't be fixed without wholesale reform!
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Grimlyn
07/30/19 9:19:14 PM
#225:


Warren with a good crowd-pleaser against Delaney's whole better-things-aren't-possible shtick
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:20:17 PM
#226:


Nelson_Mandela posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Nelson_Mandela posted...
The better Bernie does, the better Biden's chances are (Bernie will draw Warren's support). So I guess I'm pro Bernie. I'm really excited at the prospect of our first election in a generation with two decent candidates facing off for the good of the nation.


Trump vs Bernie? The first without a Democrat since the 1820s!

Nah Trump vs Biden. The first time two good people represent the major parties since maybe 1960.


Bernie is a good guy. Sure, he may want to raise your taxes a little, but if you lose your job and have to become a factory worker, he'll make sure you're taken care of. That means you don't have to be worried about money now and can take risks to your heart's content knowing that you won't be starving in the streets if you fail.
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Jakyl25
07/30/19 9:20:52 PM
#227:


Reg posted...
Inviso posted...
The moderation is great. It's the time limits they've selected that are shit.
Tapper is literally doing pretty much nothing but trying to get "gotcha" soundbites out of the candidates.

I will say the degree of control they're actually exercising is very nice and refreshing

But Tapper's attempt to get those "gotchas" is idiocy.


Thats what these debates are for. Spectacle

I mean they made a god damn spectacle out of the LIVE DRAW like it was an old school Royal Rumble or something
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:20:54 PM
#228:


I hate that Republicans are held to a lower standard than Democrats. Trump offered nothing but empty catchphrases and fairy tales, yet the Democrats are the ones expected to provide comprehensive, reasonable solutions, in order to compete with Trump's empty bullshit.
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LordoftheMorons
07/30/19 9:20:54 PM
#229:


Ughhhhh Bernie with the protectionism

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xp1337
07/30/19 9:22:23 PM
#230:


Jakyl25 posted...

I mean they made a god damn spectacle out of the LIVE DRAW like it was an old school Royal Rumble or something

need to go full nba draft lottery next time with live trades and candidate reps at podiums
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LordoftheMorons
07/30/19 9:25:10 PM
#231:


Good climate answer from Delaney

Warren's forced "build in America" for her climate bill is stupid as fuck and I have no idea why she includes it

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Jakyl25
07/30/19 9:25:38 PM
#232:


xp1337 posted...
Jakyl25 posted...

I mean they made a god damn spectacle out of the LIVE DRAW like it was an old school Royal Rumble or something

need to go full nba draft lottery next time with live trades and candidate reps at podiums


Dude they should have totally allowed trades to happen.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:26:17 PM
#233:


Inviso posted...
I hate that Republicans are held to a lower standard than Democrats. Trump offered nothing but empty catchphrases and fairy tales, yet the Democrats are the ones expected to provide comprehensive, reasonable solutions, in order to compete with Trump's empty bullshit.


Trump offered more substance than the rest of these candidates combined. Let's recap:

1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:28:43 PM
#234:


red sox 777 posted...
Inviso posted...
I hate that Republicans are held to a lower standard than Democrats. Trump offered nothing but empty catchphrases and fairy tales, yet the Democrats are the ones expected to provide comprehensive, reasonable solutions, in order to compete with Trump's empty bullshit.


Trump offered more substance than the rest of these candidates combined. Let's recap:

1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


Literally none of those things are substantial. They're literally simplistic talking points to appeal to idiots who aren't going to bother doing any research into the issues whatsoever.
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Ashethan
07/30/19 9:32:14 PM
#235:


red sox 777 posted...
1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


1. Nothing but a soundbyte for his followers. No real plan to pay for the wall.

2. A tax cut plan for billionaires. It's all Republicans seem to know how to do these days. That and take away reproductive rights from women.

3. Another soundbyte for his followers.

4. Unconstitutional, and went to show that Donald Trump doesn't know the first thing about how the government is run, and therefore shows him to be unqualified.

5. "repeal' isn't a plan. And there was no plan for the replace. Three years later, and still no plan.

6. "Start Trade War" isn't exactly great substance.

7. No specifics to the plan in the least.

8. And no plan for dealing with Iran afterward. "Cancel the Iran Deal" is just pure spite politics.

9. With no plan to pay for it! As always.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:32:35 PM
#236:


Inviso posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Inviso posted...
I hate that Republicans are held to a lower standard than Democrats. Trump offered nothing but empty catchphrases and fairy tales, yet the Democrats are the ones expected to provide comprehensive, reasonable solutions, in order to compete with Trump's empty bullshit.


Trump offered more substance than the rest of these candidates combined. Let's recap:

1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


Literally none of those things are substantial. They're literally simplistic talking points to appeal to idiots who aren't going to bother doing any research into the issues whatsoever.


These are substantive proposals that invite real debate. The other candidates' proposals are either vapid pandering or tend to shut down debate (like Hillary's repeatedly directing people to her website to read hundreds of pages of white papers). That's not a debate. And it's not serious.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:34:37 PM
#237:


Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


1. Nothing but a soundbyte for his followers. No real plan to pay for the wall.

2. A tax cut plan for billionaires. It's all Republicans seem to know how to do these days. That and take away reproductive rights from women.

3. Another soundbyte for his followers.

4. Unconstitutional, and went to show that Donald Trump doesn't know the first thing about how the government is run, and therefore shows him to be unqualified.

5. "repeal' isn't a plan. And there was no plan for the replace. Three years later, and still no plan.

6. "Start Trade War" isn't exactly great substance.

7. No specifics to the plan in the least.

8. And no plan for dealing with Iran afterward. "Cancel the Iran Deal" is just pure spite politics.

9. With no plan to pay for it! As always.


See, you were able to provide a substantive response to all 9 of these positions. This proves they are all substantive. Contrast it with most politicians' positions, where it's virtually impossible to directly evaluate the proposal one way or the other.
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LordoftheMorons
07/30/19 9:35:45 PM
#238:


Oof bad pivot from Pete there

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TotallyNotMI
07/30/19 9:36:34 PM
#239:


My favorite debate moment so far is when Williamson went into a trance and prophesied the return of Voldemort.

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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:38:44 PM
#240:


TotallyNotMI posted...
My favorite debate moment so far is when Williamson went into a trance and prophesied the return of Voldemort.


She's right. Trump is winning again.
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:39:23 PM
#241:


red sox 777 posted...
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


1. Nothing but a soundbyte for his followers. No real plan to pay for the wall.

2. A tax cut plan for billionaires. It's all Republicans seem to know how to do these days. That and take away reproductive rights from women.

3. Another soundbyte for his followers.

4. Unconstitutional, and went to show that Donald Trump doesn't know the first thing about how the government is run, and therefore shows him to be unqualified.

5. "repeal' isn't a plan. And there was no plan for the replace. Three years later, and still no plan.

6. "Start Trade War" isn't exactly great substance.

7. No specifics to the plan in the least.

8. And no plan for dealing with Iran afterward. "Cancel the Iran Deal" is just pure spite politics.

9. With no plan to pay for it! As always.


See, you were able to provide a substantive response to all 9 of these positions. This proves they are all substantive. Contrast it with most politicians' positions, where it's virtually impossible to directly evaluate the proposal one way or the other.


I don't think you know what substantive means.

All nine of your talking points can be summarized at three word phrases to appeal to the kinds of morons who don't think beyond basic, surface-level assessments of what government does.

"Build the Wall", "Cut Your Taxes", "Lock Her Up", "Keep Muslims Out", "Kill Off Obamacare", "Make Them Pay", "No More NAFTA", "No Iran Deal", "Fix Our Roads". He puts no effort into the "how" of any of these things, and neither do the people swayed by them. And Democrats are punished for putting thought into their policies.
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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:44:43 PM
#242:


Inviso posted...
red sox 777 posted...
Ashethan posted...
red sox 777 posted...
1. Build a wall on the border with Mexico.
2. A comprehensive tax cut plan - see Trump's website for detailed tax rate info.
3. Appoint a special prosecutor to investigate Hillary Clinton.
4. Moratorium on admission of Muslims into the US (unconstitutional as originally proposed and therefore subsequently revised).
5. Repeal and replace Obamacare (replace lacked specifics, but repeal is very specific).
6. Tariffs.
7. Renegotiate trade deals.
8. Cancel the Iran deal.
9. Renovate our airports and infrastructure.


1. Nothing but a soundbyte for his followers. No real plan to pay for the wall.

2. A tax cut plan for billionaires. It's all Republicans seem to know how to do these days. That and take away reproductive rights from women.

3. Another soundbyte for his followers.

4. Unconstitutional, and went to show that Donald Trump doesn't know the first thing about how the government is run, and therefore shows him to be unqualified.

5. "repeal' isn't a plan. And there was no plan for the replace. Three years later, and still no plan.

6. "Start Trade War" isn't exactly great substance.

7. No specifics to the plan in the least.

8. And no plan for dealing with Iran afterward. "Cancel the Iran Deal" is just pure spite politics.

9. With no plan to pay for it! As always.


See, you were able to provide a substantive response to all 9 of these positions. This proves they are all substantive. Contrast it with most politicians' positions, where it's virtually impossible to directly evaluate the proposal one way or the other.


I don't think you know what substantive means.

All nine of your talking points can be summarized at three word phrases to appeal to the kinds of morons who don't think beyond basic, surface-level assessments of what government does.

"Build the Wall", "Cut Your Taxes", "Lock Her Up", "Keep Muslims Out", "Kill Off Obamacare", "Make Them Pay", "No More NAFTA", "No Iran Deal", "Fix Our Roads". He puts no effort into the "how" of any of these things, and neither do the people swayed by them. And Democrats are punished for putting thought into their policies.


How is not his job. He is the president. It's his job to give direction. Congress is supposed to figure out the details. And the people are supposed to talk about the details and debate it. That doesn't happen when Hillary has a detailed proposal on her website and she tells people to take it or leave it, but she won't talk about it.
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Inviso
07/30/19 9:47:42 PM
#243:


So you're not disagreeing with me that Republicans are held to a lower standard? That Trump throwing up meaningless buzzwords that his party may or may not do anything meaningful with (with the assumption from his voters that his words carry actual weight) is treated more positively than Hillary actually doing research and coming up with plans that she wants to accomplish?
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ChaosTonyV4
07/30/19 9:49:04 PM
#244:


Inviso posted...
So you're not disagreeing with me that Republicans are held to a lower standard? That Trump throwing up meaningless buzzwords that his party may or may not do anything meaningful with (with the assumption from his voters that his words carry actual weight) is treated more positively than Hillary actually doing research and coming up with plans that she wants to accomplish?


Dude did you miss his post about the Biden and McConnel rules? He literally believes this.

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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:49:47 PM
#245:


Inviso posted...
So you're not disagreeing with me that Republicans are held to a lower standard? That Trump throwing up meaningless buzzwords that his party may or may not do anything meaningful with (with the assumption from his voters that his words carry actual weight) is treated more positively than Hillary actually doing research and coming up with plans that she wants to accomplish?


I think we are using the word "substantively" differently. I am treating a proposal as substantive if it triggers public debate on the proposal itself. A proposal is not substantive if it triggers no debate or the debate is purely ancillary (like, is this the right question to be asking?).
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LordoftheMorons
07/30/19 9:54:49 PM
#246:


I might be going all in on Delaney if he had a chance in hell

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red sox 777
07/30/19 9:55:28 PM
#247:


Delaney should run as a Republican.....
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DoomTheGyarados
07/30/19 9:55:40 PM
#248:


LordoftheMorons posted...
I might be going all in on Delaney if he had a chance in hell


Says a lot about you tbh.
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Grimlyn
07/30/19 9:56:24 PM
#249:


delaney is a literal dickhead

unarguably the most unlikable person on the stage,
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LordoftheMorons
07/30/19 9:56:35 PM
#250:


Only good things, I hope

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