Current Events > My problem with Captain Marvel in Endgame *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

And, to be fair, several other creative choices the movie had. Basically, Captain Marvel was wasted. Literally could have removed her from the movie and the only thing you'd need to change is who rescues Tony from space (which was a deus ex machina its self, all things considered). She was basically in exactly three scenes of the movie and did nothing of note except that. Really felt shoehorned in. They also wasted the opportunity to have her do the final snap, something she canonically was meant to do. I get the creative decision to have Tony do it, and it was one of the most amazing Marvel movie moments period, but like damn.

I didn't like the direction they went with The Hulk either but at least Bruce/Hulk had serious impact on the movie. To be fair, he could have easily accomplished all his relevant plot point WITHOUT being a Bruce/Hulk fusion. We already knew he was smart, and he should have been able to survive his snap even in human form (his gamma resistance carries over between forms). They introduced this super interesting Hulk scared dynamic in the first movie and we never got a payoff from it, and that could have been a great aspect of character development. The only "strong" thing he did was hold up a building, which again could have been left out of the movie entirely without really affecting the plot.

/rant

Rescuing the hero of the MCU Tony Stark is one of the highest honors Carol could be given.
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"They also wasted the opportunity to have her do the final snap, something she canonically was meant to do. I get the creative decision to have Tony do it, and it was one of the most amazing Marvel movie moments period, but like damn."

Uh what now?
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The reason they didn't use Carol so much is that they wanted the movie to be about the O6, as the end of their story.

She did three important things:

- rescued Tony and Nebula when literally no one else could have

- stopped Thanos' ship from killing everyone

- occupied Thanos long enough for Tony to shake off getting thrown around, which allowed him the chance he needed to get the Stones back.
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Everyone would be dead if Carol didn't fuck Thanos up
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RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Rescuing the hero of the MCU Tony Stark is one of the highest honors Carol could be given.

Yeah, but why did it have to be Captain Marvel? Literally dozens of other established characters who could have easily been involved in that. Any number of space faring Marvel characters could have picked up on a distress signal from Iron Man's suit, Nebula's mechanical body, or the ship in general. I mean, fuck, Guardians is basically DESIGNED around space pirates who do that sort of shit for a living.

People claim that Feige wanted Carol to show up around Age of Ultron, and that probably would have been better.

She just feels so shoehorned in because her movie literally came out right before Endgame.

pikachupwnage posted...

"They also wasted the opportunity to have her do the final snap, something she canonically was meant to do. I get the creative decision to have Tony do it, and it was one of the most amazing Marvel movie moments period, but like damn."

Uh what now?

Yeah, idk about this my dude. Her power only comes from 1 stone. That doesn't make her resistant to all 6 combined. Especially when Thanos was able to dispose of her with the power stone by itself during their little bout.
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fire_bolt posted...

RiKuToTheMiGhtY posted...

Rescuing the hero of the MCU Tony Stark is one of the highest honors Carol could be given.

Yeah, but why did it have to be Captain Marvel? Literally dozens of other established characters who could have easily been involved in that. Any number of space faring Marvel characters could have picked up on a distress signal from Iron Man's suit, Nebula's mechanical body, or the ship in general. I mean, fuck, Guardians is basically DESIGNED around space pirates who do that sort of shit for a living.

And how many spacefaring characters were left after IW that could have found them? Only ones I can think of are Thor, Rocket, and Carol.

- The Asgardians may not even have made it to Earth yet, and we don't know if their remaining ships would even have been up to that long a journey.

- Rocket is on Earth, yeah, but he doesn't have any way of leaving until the Benetar comes back.

- Carol goes to get them. Problem solved.
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It was a way for her to be given something to do, and more importantly it was so Tony and Nebula were saved from dying from starvation in space.

The GOTG were mostly snapped out of existence, so it was Carols time to shine by rescuing the hero that actually can save the day:Tony Stark.
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Dark_Garioshi posted...

Everyone would be dead if Carol didn't fuck Thanos up

Again, why did it have to be Captain Marvel? We saw plenty of other people fucking Thanos up. Hell, just about everyone else got their shots in.

Essentially, what about Captain Marvel made her ESSENTIAL to the movie? What was special about her that something NEEDED her? They didn't pursue that angle at all, and they should have. Instead everything she did just made me think "someone else could have done this" to the point where it felt like her inclusion was solely because the Infinity War comic series had her in it and they didn't want to leave her out.

I'm not bitching about Captain Marvel's presence or powers or anything. I'm bitching about the Russo brothers waste of her uniqueness. She essentially acted as "generic Mary Sue #14579842375".

SailorGoon posted...

pikachupwnage posted...

"They also wasted the opportunity to have her do the final snap, something she canonically was meant to do. I get the creative decision to have Tony do it, and it was one of the most amazing Marvel movie moments period, but like damn."

Uh what now?

Yeah, idk about this my dude. Her power only comes from 1 stone. That doesn't make her resistant to all 6 combined. Especially when Thanos was able to dispose of her with the power stone by itself during their little bout.

Even so, it only takes 1 Stone to stop Thanos from doing snapping again. Let her grab whichever Stone she needs, give her a nice badass super hero power up scene, and THEN let her beat him senseless with it for a moment until he can grab the other stones and overpower her. BOOM, barely even change anything about the movie and still showcase something ONLY Captain Marvel could have done. We'd already established in the franchise that no one so far was able to even use a Stone except Dr Strange and Vision. Giving her a chance to shine with one would have been a great way to justify her being in that fight when no one else could

fire_bolt posted...

Dark_Garioshi posted...

Everyone would be dead if Carol didn't fuck Thanos up

Again, why did it have to be Captain Marvel? We saw plenty of other people fucking Thanos up. Hell, just about everyone else got their shots in.

Essentially, what about Captain Marvel made her ESSENTIAL to the movie? What was special about her that something NEEDED her? They didn't pursue that angle at all, and they should have. Instead everything she did just made me think "someone else could have done this" to the point where it felt like her inclusion was solely because the Infinity War comic series had her in it and they didn't want to leave her out.

I'm not bitching about Captain Marvel's presence or powers or anything. I'm bitching about the Russo brothers waste of her uniqueness. She essentially acted as "generic Mary Sue #14579842375".

There's a marked difference between "getting your shots in" and "fucking someone up". Yeah, Thor, Steve, and Tony did decent, but still, they never once had Thanos in real trouble. This wasn't the "You're stopping me from achieving my goal" Thanos from IW who basically just wanted them out of the way, this was a Thanos who knew that he'd already done what he wanted and now faced seeing it undone, and he was pissed.
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i like to think that carol finding tony wasn't as deus ex-y as people are led to believe.

she's first led to earth by the page from fury and the avengers keep the signal going and get a literal back turn shocker in the stinger at the end of captain marvel. she gets updated really quick and travels to titan to look for clues and scours the surrounding space since she only finds the remains of a large battle on titan.

this probably explains why the avengers don't freak out when she brings the entire ship back on her back and is probably how it would be explained overall even though it's incredibly vague.
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I mean, she outmuscled him in a fight. Something nobody else could really do. He beat up the Hulk in IW without any stones and in Endgame he was forced to use a stone to get the upper hand against her.
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If anyone else were to try and rescue Tony and Nebula, they probably would have had to use a ship, which would cost fuel.

Carol was able to do that stuff for free.

Carol doing the final snap would have been terrible from a narrative standpoint alone. It had to be Tony. He started all of this, it had to be him that ended it.
The only thing they wasted with her was not at least setting up some future growth from having her ego destroyed.
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AsucaHayashi posted...

i like to think that carol finding tony wasn't as deus ex-y as people are led to believe.

she's first led to earth by the page from fury and the avengers keep the signal going and get a literal back turn shocker in the stinger at the end of captain marvel. she gets updated really quick and travels to titan to look for clues and scours the surrounding space since she only finds the remains of a large battle on titan.

this probably explains why the avengers don't freak out when she brings the entire ship back on her back and is probably how it would be explained overall even though it's incredibly vague.

I think it's more likely that Rocket gave her the Benetar's transponder frequency. The odds against a human-sized object finding one ship in the vastness of space are so astronomical (pardon the pun) that even if she'd known where to start looking, all she would have had to do is be off by a tiny fraction of distance and she'd have missed them completely.
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Carol was the free space uber that Tony and Nebula needed.
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SailorGoon posted...

I mean, she outmuscled him in a fight. Something nobody else could really do. He beat up the Hulk in IW without any stones and in Endgame he was forced to use a stone to get the upper hand against her.

Which is a fair point, tbh. We'd established that no one so far could go raw strength toe to toe with Thanos... But we've also seen plenty of people 1 on 1 him. Shit, Cap was tearing him down there for a solid minute. I'd have loved seeing how an in-control Hulk did vs Thanos.

You could have a scene of the Avengers on Earth saying "Go rescue Tony!", but it feels like having it go straight to Tony slowly dying is more impactful without that.

SailorGoon posted...

He beat up the Hulk in IW without any stones

Didn't he have a stone already on the ship?
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Anteaterking posted...

Didn't he have a stone already on the ship?

Yeah, but he never used it in the fight.
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fire_bolt posted...

SailorGoon posted...

I mean, she outmuscled him in a fight. Something nobody else could really do. He beat up the Hulk in IW without any stones and in Endgame he was forced to use a stone to get the upper hand against her.

Which is a fair point, tbh. We'd established that no one so far could go raw strength toe to toe with Thanos... But we've also seen plenty of people 1 on 1 him. Shit, Cap was tearing him down there for a solid minute. I'd have loved seeing how an in-control Hulk did vs Thanos.

Cap tore Thanos down until Thanos lost his temper. After that, it was game over for Steve. Literally the only thing that saved Steve was the cavalry coming.

I don't think ProfHulk would have done any better than AngryHulk, because Bruce isn't a fighter. He's strong, sure, but unless he's been taking boxing lessons...
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BLAKUboy posted...

Carol doing the final snap would have been terrible from a narrative standpoint alone. It had to be Tony. He started all of this, it had to be him that ended it.
The only thing they wasted with her was not at least setting up some future growth from having her ego destroyed.

I agree with this 100%. Tony was the right person for the job, for so many different reasons. That doesn't negate they have the Marvel version of Superman on the battlefield and IN CONTROL OF THE GAUNTLET at one point. I'm glad they didn't choose to Mary Sue the moment up but that doesn't change that they probably should have, at least from a logical point of view.

Should have introduced her way earlier, her getting a movie just before endgame and getting those scenes in endgame itself felt really SJW'y especially with the girl power scene as well and her shitty actress, no fucking wonder people hate her everything went wrong. What's even worse is her movie had a deleted scene about toxic masculinity, seriously, SJW, progressive era ain't new, you'd think with how negative that affects people that the flimers would know to not put that garbage in these movies yet here we are and now a character is tainted forever by it, she's not as bad as her comic counterpart but she's on her way there thanks to this bullshit.
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> "marvel you better not give any major role for captain marvel , she's not the original avenger. "
> marvel makes captain marvel as side-character
> "OMG captain marvel was wasted!"

Should have been Korg and Miek to rescue them tbh
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HunkDude posted...

> "marvel you better not give any major role for captain marvel , she's not the original avenger. "
> marvel makes captain marvel as side-character
> "OMG captain marvel was wasted!"

Nice straw man, but at no point ever did I saw Captain Marvel didn't deserve a major role. If anything, I'm arguing her role needed to be expanded, both in Endgame and in the MCU in general.

The actor that plays CM is toxic af, thats why her role was minimized.
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fire_bolt posted...

HunkDude posted...

> "marvel you better not give any major role for captain marvel , she's not the original avenger. "
> marvel makes captain marvel as side-character
> "OMG captain marvel was wasted!"

Nice straw man, but at no point ever did I saw Captain Marvel didn't deserve a major role. If anything, I'm arguing her role needed to be expanded, both in Endgame and in the MCU in general.

i am just saying that there are two sides for this issue
if captain marvel had more scenes, there would be people bitching about it

CloudChaser462 posted...

The actor that plays is toxic af, thats why her role was minimized.

I couldn't care less about that, and it doesn't really matter in the conversation at hand. Regardless of her off scene shenanigans, Brie did a fine job on screen.

fire_bolt posted...

CloudChaser462 posted...

The actor that plays is toxic af, thats why her role was minimized.

I couldn't care less about that, and it doesn't really matter in the conversation at hand. Regardless of her off scene shenanigans, Brie did a fine job on screen.

Well no it does. The CM movie was a test for the character.

Since the public disliked her for her off screen comments, they changed the script of Endgame to minimize her role.

Its the same for why Scarlett Johanssons character died instead of the Hawkeye dude
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DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

The reason they didn't use Carol so much is that they wanted the movie to be about the O6, as the end of their story.

No, the reason they didn't use her is because Endgame was filmed before her solo film was even written. So the Russos literally had no idea what to do with her character.

Captain Marvel is OP. Her role was TKOing Thanos ship since no other character could do that solo.

If you noticed, every character who could take a stoneless Thanos solo were either weakened (Depressed Thor), distracted (Strange stopping a flood), or got interrupted by a surprise attack (Scarlet getting bombed).

Captain Marvel did enough. If she did any more, there would be zero tension in the movie.

The movie genuinely showed her being leagues above everyone, but still showing that she can be outsmarted twice. Which is good. It was very easy to just make her the answer. But they didnt.
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Annihilated posted...

DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

The reason they didn't use Carol so much is that they wanted the movie to be about the O6, as the end of their story.

No, the reason they didn't use her is because Endgame was filmed before her solo film was even written. So the Russos literally had no idea what to do with her character.

In an interview with Empire, Joe and Anthony Russo said that Captain Marvels relegation to minor character was the result of a choice to focus on characters with longer tenures in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

It was a story about the original six, Joe Russo said. That was the focus of the film, to conclude a 10-year saga about those characters. And Carols a fairly new character.

She had no depth of relationship with those other characters, which on one side is an opportunity, but also when you have a story thats this size you have to work with an economy of storytelling in order to maximize the journey in the movie, Anthony Russo added.
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cuttin_in_farm posted...

Captain Marvel is OP. Her role was TKOing Thanos ship since no other character could do that solo.

If you noticed, every character who could take a stoneless Thanos solo were either weakened (Depressed Thor), distracted (Strange stopping a flood), or got interrupted by a surprise attack (Scarlet getting bombed).

Captain Marvel did enough. If she did any more, there would be zero tension in the movie.

The movie genuinely showed her being leagues above everyone, but still showing that she can be outsmarted twice. Which is good. It was very easy to just make her the answer. But they didnt.

What you just said about her is something I've said since her movie: she's too powerful to fit into the MCU. They basically took comic-Carol and put her into the MCU, where most of the higher-level characters are nerfed from their comic counterparts (while, ironically, lower-tier characters get power boosts).

Now from her origin, it makes sense for her to be that powerful: Wanda was granted powers by scientific, controlled exposure to an infinity stone's energy (and Endgame finally showed what she can do when she's really pissed), but Carol basically got oversaturated when Mar-Vell's engine exploded.

So the three options going forward are:

1 - Keep her out in space and only have her show up as the muscle, which will get old really quick.

2 - Keep escalating the level of threat she faces, which will also get old really quick.

3 - Or depower her some way. Maybe this could be how to backdoor mutants into the MCU, that she gets attacked by Rogue if they wanted to keep their origins tied together.
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was just looking through some easter eggs and this fricking blew my mind:
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cc4c702c013351af2506f9a-960-1438.jpg

the avengers are tony's heart
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CloudChaser462 posted...

The actor that plays CM is toxic af, thats why her role was minimized.

Nope.
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Wasted no? She was used just right. Otherwise she would be Superman in Justice League, making every single other person UTTERLY USELESS.
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She was overpowered, which is why she wasn't in the movie really
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Hey Peter Parker. You got something for me?
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AsucaHayashi posted...

was just looking through some easter eggs and this fricking blew my mind:
https://amp.businessinsider.com/images/5cc4c702c013351af2506f9a-960-1438.jpg

the avengers are tony's heart

Rocket is adorable in that picture.
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