Board 8 > What is most fair regarding Sheik's eligibility in CB11?

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HaRRicH
04/14/19 5:25:45 PM
1
What is most fair regarding Sheik's eligibility in CB11? - Results (25 votes)
Sheik should be allowed if she has enough nominations.
52% (13 votes)
13
Sheik should be allowed if she out-nominates Zelda.
12% (3 votes)
3
Sheik should be banned, even if she gets enough nominations AND out-nominates Zelda.
36% (9 votes)
9
I've got an on-going rally topic here with plenty of previous discussion if anybody wants to reference it. I said awhile back that once we made our case we'd get this poll out, so here it is (later than intended).

SB was vague and skeptical, for the record, but still open about this in past feedback tickets. I don't expect him to make an answer on Sheik based on this poll, but I think it serves everyone well for him to have the information.

How does Board 8 feel? Where are we at when it comes down to it? Should Sheik be allowed?
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bwburke94
04/14/19 5:32:20 PM
2
Zelda should be treated the same as Link; all incarnations are effectively one character.

Because Sheik has never existed separate from Zelda (even in later Smash games, it's acknowledged that she's Zelda), only one of Zelda/Sheik should be in the field.
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I should stop changing signatures.
Hbthebattle
04/14/19 5:35:42 PM
3
You could argue that the different Links should be separated too- they are different people, despite being reincarnations of each other, and have different backgrounds, experiences, and even personalities.
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Patience.
MetalmindStats
04/14/19 5:38:17 PM
4
My stance is the same as before, and I remain committed to nominating Sheik next character battle. To me, there's some very clear distinctions between Zelda and Sheik that the different Links lack.
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Hail the reigning Guru champ, Advokaiser!
You proved yourself more statistically metal-minded than I ever have been - well done!
Leonhart4
04/14/19 5:38:37 PM
5
I still don't understand the desire to try to get Sheik in to begin with. She won't be more popular than just regular Zelda, and she can't just be her own separate character.
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swirIdude
04/14/19 5:54:47 PM
6
If Sheik being an alter ego was a lesser known fact, she would have been allowed in out of ignorance already. (Hi there, Siegfried.)
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Advokaiser picked Cloud in Guru and rained on my bracket.
At least I finished 20th overall!
HaRRicH
04/14/19 5:55:43 PM
7
Leonhart4 posted...
She won't be more popular than just regular Zelda

Assumption. Also, is this disqualifying?

Leonhart4 posted...
and she can't just be her own separate character.

Assumption.
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Leonhart4
04/14/19 6:02:42 PM
8
HaRRicH
04/14/19 7:28:19 PM
9
Up for CB11's best newcomer left.
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Drakeryn
04/14/19 7:30:54 PM
10
bwburke94 posted...
Because Sheik has never existed separate from Zelda (even in later Smash games, it's acknowledged that she's Zelda), only one of Zelda/Sheik should be in the field.

This. But if Sheik out-nominates Zelda then sure, let her have the slot.
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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
Underleveled
04/14/19 7:31:35 PM
11
Drakeryn posted...
bwburke94 posted...
Because Sheik has never existed separate from Zelda (even in later Smash games, it's acknowledged that she's Zelda), only one of Zelda/Sheik should be in the field.

This. But if Sheik out-nominates Zelda then sure, let her have the slot.

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darkx
Score: There goes bracket
Team Rocket Elite
04/14/19 7:33:32 PM
12
Drakeryn
04/14/19 7:42:11 PM
13
I don't think she would actually be stronger than Zelda, but with a concerted board 8 rally, she might beat Zelda in nominations? I'm not sure how big a share b8 has there.
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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
HaRRicH
04/14/19 7:43:38 PM
14
I was more confident about Sheik > Zelda indirectly while planning for this rally in the middle of CB10...as in before Zelda crushed Squall.

Nowadays, it's a tougher statement to say so indirectly, but I'm still taking Sheik > Zelda head-to-head. Sheik has GameFAQs's #1 single-player game and #1 multi-player series on her side -- your move, BotW.
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Underleveled
04/14/19 7:44:05 PM
15
Zelda isn't always super strong in nominations. She frequently gets a fairly low seed. Sheik could beat her in nominations with a huge B8 rally.
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darkx
Score: There goes bracket
HaRRicH
04/14/19 7:58:02 PM
16
Underleveled posted...
Zelda isn't always super strong in nominations. She frequently gets a fairly low seed. Sheik could beat her in nominations with a huge B8 rally.


It's different now post-BotW, but you're historically right.

It's also worth noting Epona beat Zelda badly in seeding during 2013 and would have probably beaten her worse if she wasn't labeled a "joke" character (she was forced into a Board 8 joke-slot that year after a historic rally).
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Team Rocket Elite
04/14/19 8:01:16 PM
17
I could see an argument for Sheik being stronger before CBX. However, Zelda cleanly shut the door on that. CBX also made people more willing to accept the possibility of rSFF but Sheik would need a mountain of it to pass Zelda. "It's freaking Mario" couldn't do it against Zelda.
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Link isn't the only one who kicks ass.
Congrats to Advokaiser for winning the CBX Guru Contest!
-hotdogturtle--
04/14/19 8:26:22 PM
18
I would rather have Sheik allowed and also separate the Links in nominations since they are literally different characters who are only lumped together in the contest because they happen to share the same name.
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Hey man, LlamaGuy did encrypt the passwords.
With what? ROT-13? -CJayC
swordz9
04/14/19 8:27:36 PM
19
Shes the same character as Zelda so I dont see any reason to allow her in. I mean that would be like letting one of Marios power-up versions in or something. Even ignoring that we dont need even more LoZ domination. Last contest was awful
Meow1000
04/14/19 8:39:15 PM
20
Letting Sheik and Zelda both in may as well be letting Wario and variations of Master-Of-Disguise Wario in the same content.

WE NEED VAMPIRE WARIO ON A CONTEST GUYS

So yeah option B.
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Never underestimate the power of stupidity in numbers. ~War13104
Never stoop to the level of idiots. They will drag you down and beat you with experience.
Leonhart4
04/14/19 8:41:04 PM
21
swordz9
04/14/19 8:44:09 PM
22
Leonhart4 posted...
Zero Suit Samus for CBXI

Time for Leon & Squall. Actually that would just be sad to see after that last awful contest :(
HaRRicH
04/14/19 8:50:13 PM
23
Leon faces the winner of Squall VS Solid Snake #5 or so.
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pjbasis
04/14/19 8:54:08 PM
24
Yeah sheik is not like any of these other examples next
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redrocket
04/14/19 8:54:20 PM
25
Leon would just be sad to see after he got snubbed by KH3.
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It's like paying for bubble wrap. -transience on Final Fantasy: All the Bravest
HaRRicH
04/14/19 10:05:26 PM
26
Who else?
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LordoftheMorons
04/14/19 10:09:37 PM
27
swordz9 posted...
Leonhart4 posted...
Zero Suit Samus for CBXI

Time for Leon & Squall. Actually that would just be sad to see after that last awful contest :(

Squall looks a lot better in retrospect!
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Congrats to Advokaiser for winning the CBX Guru Challenge!
Team Rocket Elite
04/14/19 10:23:19 PM
28
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7342-division-5-semifinal-squall-vs-zelda
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/7354-division-5-final-zelda-vs-aerith

Squall still took a sizable hit in strength. It isn't the complete disaster it initially seemed like but Squall's best days are behind him.
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Link isn't the only one who kicks ass.
Congrats to Advokaiser for winning the CBX Guru Contest!
HaRRicH
04/14/19 10:24:28 PM
29
Agreed on that point.

Still, it's still weird to see that Aeris would have likely upset Squall though if they faced off, based on doing 1.13% better against Zelda plus FF7 > FF8. I don't offhand remember indications that would have been a favorable prediction in recent contests.
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swirIdude
04/14/19 10:28:58 PM
30
HaRRicH posted...
I was more confident about Sheik > Zelda indirectly while planning for this rally in the middle of CB10...as in before Zelda crushed Squall.

Nowadays, it's a tougher statement to say so indirectly, but I'm still taking Sheik > Zelda head-to-head. Sheik has GameFAQs's #1 single-player game and #1 multi-player series on her side -- your move, BotW.


This reminds me of the Yoshi > Mario and Magus > Crono talk back in 2003. How silly that was - and how silly this is too.
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Advokaiser picked Cloud in Guru and rained on my bracket.
At least I finished 20th overall!
_SecretSquirrel
04/14/19 10:44:45 PM
31
I really think if there's enough demand for Sheik, have the character listed as "Princess Zelda/Sheik" and allow match pictures to feature either character.

There's no need to have the character take two slots, and I think snubbing Zelda for her alter ego when she is now a Top 5 level character is asinine.
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Agent Triple Zero at your service!
This line reserved for the true greatone, Advokaiser, the 2018 Guru Contest winner.
HaRRicH
04/14/19 10:50:08 PM
32
Magus > Crono was silly, agreed.

Yoshi > Mario counted on Mario Kart/Party/Golf-voters to have their preference in avatar and minor difference in mechanics be the same as their preference in character...which was silly in hindsight too, but I could see the logic.

SSB repeatedly features different experiences betwren Zelda and Sheik, as you can see supported by any fighting game community in any version of the series. Yoshi was never the surprise-star of a game like Sheik was in LoZ:OoT either, so...I get your point and see other similarities like the title characters VS others-aspect, but I don't think this is the same silly situation.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but how many other newcomers will be stronger than her anyway? Sheik has legitimate fans, and her getting trounced like Sonic did Knuckles would still mean she's gonna rightfully beat some fan-favorites. Nothing unworthy about that.
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HaRRicH
04/14/19 10:57:01 PM
33
I also don't think Zelda's keeping all this strength in CB11, but to each their own. Smash-hype magnified her BotW-boost and the site's Switch-presence. Sheik won't be competing with 2018-Zelda in my book.
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Underleveled
04/14/19 11:00:52 PM
34
Zelda won't be quite as strong next time but she will still be a top 10 character. If I were filling out a bracket this summer I would take Snake/Mario/Samus over her but I would still take her over Sonic/Mega Man/Pikachu/Crono.

Those ARE the top 10 right now, right? (plus Link and Cloud)?
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darkx
Score: There goes bracket
MetalmindStats
04/14/19 11:16:53 PM
35
I would put Tifa over Sonic in the top 10 at this point. Otherwise, I agree - clearly Zelda was boosted by her post-divisional bandwagon in 2018, but I don't see any reason why the rest of her strength wouldn't stick around.

As for Zelda vs. Sheik straight-up, let me put it this way: Sheik, like Magus and Yoshi, is just a well-liked secondary character from her series. On the other hand, Zelda, like Crono and Mario, is the face of her franchise (along with Link, but still). That being said, I will say that Zelda not being the main playable character means Sheik should hold up better against Zelda than Magus or Yoshi would against Crono or Mario.
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Hail the reigning Guru champ, Advokaiser!
You proved yourself more statistically metal-minded than I ever have been - well done!
Paratroopa1
04/15/19 12:04:57 AM
36
I think Sheik's identity is separate enough from Zelda's to be permissible
jcgamer107
04/15/19 1:18:36 AM
37
Leonhart4 posted...
I still don't understand the desire to try to get Sheik in to begin with.

For many people she exists as her own fighting game character
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Official Advokaiser advocate
Underleveled
04/15/19 1:35:26 AM
38
To be honest, an argument I can kinda see is the "many different Links and Zeldas" point, which makes Sheik a separate entity than, say BotW Zelda, or Tetra, but then you're opening up a dangerous floodgate.
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darkx
Score: There goes bracket
Mac Arrowny
04/15/19 1:46:05 AM
39
Having Sheik and Zelda is a terrible idea, yeah. She's definitely less of a unique character compared to OoT Zelda than, say, SS Zelda is. And I certainly think she'd do worse against Zelda than Knuckles would against Sonic.
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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.
Team Rocket Elite
04/15/19 1:48:30 AM
40
Underleveled posted...
To be honest, an argument I can kinda see is the "many different Links and Zeldas" point, which makes Sheik a separate entity than, say BotW Zelda, or Tetra, but then you're opening up a dangerous floodgate.


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3308-character-battle-bonus-link-link-link-link

I actually am slightly curious what would happen if you split up Link into multiple different entries. Just how strong is OoT Link compared against combined Link?
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Link isn't the only one who kicks ass.
Congrats to Advokaiser for winning the CBX Guru Contest!
HaRRicH
04/15/19 2:10:18 AM
41
Mac Arrowny posted...
She's definitely less of a unique character compared to OoT Zelda than, say, SS Zelda is.


You're comparing them through the LoZ-lens. I get that, but also you understand the SSBU-lens makes Sheik and Zelda quite different -- especially since the SSB-series doesn't feature the OoT-version of Zelda now:

http://imgur.com/gallery/ewjazK0

Mac Arrowny posted...
I certainly think she'd do worse against Zelda than Knuckles would against Sonic.


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/poll/3798-chaos-division-round-2-sonic-vs-knuckles

Agree to disagree.
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Mac Arrowny
04/15/19 2:16:28 AM
42
MetalmindStats is Harrich's alt, right? Why does he keep switching between the two?

HaRRicH posted...
You're comparing them through the LoZ-lens. I get that, but also you understand the SSBU-lens makes Sheik and Zelda quite different -- especially since the SSB-series doesn't feature the OoT-version of Zelda now:

http://imgur.com/gallery/ewjazK0


Dr Mario vs regular Mario then. It's dumb either way.

Zelda would at least 70-30 Sheik.
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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.
HaRRicH
04/15/19 9:20:21 AM
43
Mac Arrowny posted...
MetalmindStats is Harrich's alt, right? Why does he keep switching between the two?


Ha! Funny, I get it with the whole Metal Man-rally thing but that's not true -- we're different users.
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pjbasis
04/15/19 12:12:21 PM
44
Mac Arrowny posted...
Dr Mario vs regular Mario then. It's dumb either way.


See now Dr Mario is actually a decent entry for a contest.

I just don't feel this bizarre purism you guys have for this shit.
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Lightning Strikes
04/15/19 12:17:49 PM
45
Sheik would be fine with no Zelda. However, as strong as Zelda is now that would be a bit pointless.
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Blaaaaaaargh BKSheikah
Alanna82
04/15/19 5:31:37 PM
46
I'd say let both Sheik and Zelda in. I remember having Mega Man and Mega man X in the same contest. If that was allowed then Sheik and Zelda should both be allowed.
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Don't mess with a Bunny!
Mac Arrowny
04/15/19 5:37:07 PM
47
MM and MMX are different people though. Having MM and MMX is kinda like having Naked Snake and Solid Snake in. They're quite similar in a lot of ways, but they're definitely different people. Having Sheik and Zelda would be more like having Solid Snake and Iroquois Pliskin in. Pliskin is literally just a disguise for Solid Snake.
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All the stars in the sky are waiting for you.
HaRRicH
04/15/19 5:39:18 PM
48
It's important to remember the spirit of the (unwritten?) rule. Reposting this from the rally-topic:

HaRRicH posted...
Young Link or Toon Link in addition to Link would break the spirit of what we're dealing with here. LoZ has weird continuity with its characters so they may be recognized as separate characters, but the points above remind us how similar they are in Smash and that's before considering how similar they are in LoZ. Wolf Link and Fierce Diety Link are basically power-ups to existing Links in my mind -- nobody wants Fire Mario and Cape Mario.

With recognition that Sheik is a disguise for Zelda in LoZ:OoT, Smash still separates Sheik from Zelda more overall than these Links do from Link.


I think the same thing applies to Dr. Mario. The relationship with Zelda/Sheik is not intended to be perceived as the same as all the Links and Marios. Sheik is plenty different on her own without having to separate various Links and Marios.
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Ytterbicide
04/15/19 5:42:49 PM
49
i mean sigfried and nightmare made it into 2008, so there's that precedence for whatever it matters
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I owe it to y'all, DpOblivion and BKShiekah. Congrats on your brackets!
Lopen
04/15/19 5:52:09 PM
50
Siegfried and Nightmare became completely separate characters in SC3 IIRC. Definitely by SC4. Had the 2008 contest been a few years earlier you may have that as something relevant to mention there. SC2 I believe they're the same character but never since
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