Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 5

(+) Yeah! (+)

she really is a fantastically designed character, i have to admit.

which is, y'know, good, since the entire story revolves around her. (except episode 1 didn't!)

this is where i'm confused

we've established, because erika was literally monitoring the crime scene from every angle, that the crime must have happened between 24:00 and 1:00

and now we're going back to genji/natsuhi/krauss and confirmign that they were together in the mansion at 24:00

i recall natsuhi and krauss staying together and talking...

but i guess then natsuhi said she needed to go to bed, so she left, and that's when she went and did the crime

the red truth is pretty silly when both sides of the debate can use it...

there's no real reason why either side can't just state whatever they want in red, since both bern and lamda can do that...

its like, what's the difference between using red to just randomly say "these people definitely have alibis" and if one of them just used red to say "natsuhi did it" or w/e

with beatrice in eps 2 to 4 it made sense why she'd withhold sometimes (since the thing she's trying to prove isn't true - that she killed them with magic)

but in this case, bern is trying to prove natsuhi did it, and she *can* use the red, so, like... ???????

i know this episode basically exists though to teach us, the player, and battler, how to solve cases. i can tell if the characters are even more meta-ly into that though.

i mean, i still can't really understand why natsuhi would kill her own daughter

even with a motive for murder (covering up the kinzo thing, plus money stuff), she would surely chose someone else for one of the first 6...?

because it's not like natsuhi is just an evil psycopath in this version of the story, she still has a relateable motive i'd assume, that's what the whole chapter was showing us

you know, if natsuhi were really innocent, this would actually be an *incredibly* intriguing mystery. how could battler prove that she's innocent when only her and krauss's alibis haven't been confirmed?

but that's not what i think it is. i've been assuming, for the past few weeks (literally) that natsuhi is guily in this chapter and this chapter exists to show us how a culprit can exist even if it contradicts things we "saw", since those things we see can just be the culprit's version of their reality

but maybe not?

i'll be surprised if we really can somehow prove that natsuhi is innocent...

"For all things, there should always be some people who believe and some who don't...!" - Battler

yeah, well, the game is explicitly stating its themes to me, but that's okay

this is a really key line though. because, and i remember i said this in a past topic, for some issues... don't facts exist? like should there be people who believe that vaccines give you autism? or w/e?

"There must be several truths in the world that cannot be proven with evidence."

oh fuck

Virgilia confirmed in red that Natsuhi isn't the culprit

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

i was completely wrong about what this chapter was building up to?!?!?!

but then... now what?!

the only one not confirmed in red to have an alibi is krauss

unless there was some gap in the red

well now i'm officially caught completely off guard

Meanwhile Beatrice (piece-Beatrice, granted), when given the opportunity, chooses not to abandon Natsuhi even when offered a chance to move on to the next game

And she cites Battler as the reason, because he never gave up

So...

again, are we just redoing the episode 3 plotline?

Why is Beatrice a good guy now? Why are Battler and Beatrice alligned?

I have no choice but to be tentative about it, but would the game really follow the same twist again?

well, natsuhi being innocent is fine by me either way <3

well, here is the moment of truth

every person has gotten an albi in red

and it's been said in red that natsuhi is innocent

something's gotta give

we're in answer arcs, so i'm hoping umineko finally starts taking the opportunity to prove to me that its mysteries have satisfying answers...

Beatrice is a good guy mostly because this isn't really Beatrice. Real Beatrice is still near-comatose. The Beatrice that's arguing for Natsuhi is a piece under Lambdadelta's control (as was the Battler that fought Erika over the issue of Kinzo's disappearance). She's just interpreted this Beatrice in certain ways. Meanwhile the real Battler dislikes how Bernkastel is doing things and so finds himself closer to the witch's side.

EDIT: Though I think I'm misunderstanding you a bit, since you seem to realize this much?
---

Yes, that's true, this is just a piece-Beatrice. And Battler was motivated mostly by a dislike of Erika (and Bern), so that can make sense

Still, real-Beatrice is also in the "sympathetic" role with Battler wanting her to get better atm, so it's not untrue to say we are rehashing episode 3 arc either way

It doesn't help that piece-Beatrice is randomly sometimes aware of being a piece but also sometimes talks as if she isn't

hell its hard to keep track of if the virgilia here is the same one that's tending to real-beatrice in the garden or not

@ your edit: yes i basically "realize" this much but also remember umineko is confusing and things contradict so its like, a mess either way

Trying to keep the meta layers straight is an exercise in frustration. But yes, in the sense that Battler is cooperating with Beatrice against a new adversary, there's a similarity to EP3 there.
---

even in this weird universe that doesn't exist where everyone is explicitly defined as being game pieces, i still feel bad for natsuhi being forced to confront the reality that kinzo never cared about her at all

and so we've "proven" that natsuhi was the killer and the trial is "over"

but

uh

i'm assuming virgilia saying in red that natsuhi is innocent wasn't just some red (whoa) herring, so there's gotta be more

AND WHO DELIVERED THAT LETTER

okay, picking back up after falling asleep last night

beatrice is about to be torn up by goats,but dlanor (who is supposed to be on erika's side but whatever) gives battler a chance to speak up

and now we need to present a case for why natsuhi is innocent, and/or who the real culprit is

again, this is umineko's chance to finally solve a mystery and prove it can do so satisfactorily. hopefully we don't bail out and save it for a future chapter.

we're going a little too far with the "truth doesn't exist" theme here

i mean, truth does exist. someone killed those people.

oh, okay, dlanor apparently is still our enemy but only gave us the chance to speak up to humiliate us...? sure, whatever

anyway, battler clarifies that the reason he's helping beatrice is because he wants to be the one to kill her. not anyone else.

suuuuuure, battler. it's not like you've become entirely sympathetic to her and/or are in love with her

more foreshadowing as beatrice implies that battler once made a promise to her and broke it

obviously related to the stuff from the end of ep4

pretty curious

I mean, it seems to me the way to solve this would be to look at the events we haven't analyzed yet. First of all, who delivered the letter to the dining room? And secondly, who had the opportunity to hide all the bodies? If we can find who could've done that, we could work backwards and re-check their alibi during the actual murders.

some confusing stuff again

Battler says that he's going to use one last thing he has, which will end up with him banishing himself to nothingness, but will let Beatrice stay alive

Battler says that this universe of nothingness is where pieces go when they're done, which Bern threatens him with

But this Battler isn't a piece...? He's Battler, the meta-Battler who has been in all the chapters? Isn't it? Or is this actually somehow the ep5 piece-Battler...? I didn't think it was, but maybe I don't remember.

Because why would the meta-Battler fight so hard for this one-game-piece-Beatrice when he knows the real one is still out there?

whatever, nothing makes sense anyway

are they trying to do a pun thing with dlanor where "desu" sounds like the katakana version of "death" which is also "desu", roughly?

because, lol

to be clear, there is really no reason to think that a "piece" is less valuable than a "meta" character

after all, a "piece" just means they are a version of a human who appears in a certain universe (aka fragment)

for all we know, we are all pieces ourselves in real life. there's no reason to say that a living being is less "real" just because they exist as just one version of many. we can't prove whether or not these piece-characters have a consciousness or not. just like how we can't say the witches aren't "real"

https://snag.gy/qKCQzN.jpg

that's disgusting =/

also what is even the point of this section

"we don't want to use the red truth to make natsuhi admit kinzo is dead, but we will use the red truth one by one to explain that he couldn't exist anywhere"

kind of silly

oh i love being beaten over the head with a theme

we go to a trial summary which explains how natsuhi had sex with kinzo dressed as beatrice and then killed everyone

i get it, "truth" is decided by the victors, etc etc

natsuhi's "truth" she tells herself is that she pushed a servant and a baby off a cliff

even though they probably really did just fall by accident (if this backstory from this fragment is even real)

sweet innocent natsuhi. the only lie she comes up with is one to punish herself =(

do these credits really need to name all seven sisters one by one, geez

are the credits in a different format every time? and if so, does it have any meaning...?

and who is the person in the logo this time...? it looks like battler reading a book while wearing a cape. but uhhhhhh

and so, we move on to the ep 5 "tea party"

but its not even a tea party anymore

it's just literally a continuation of the episode, and it wouldn't have been out of place if we just moved on to it directly from the previous scene

this game's format is kind of silly because the tea parties and ???s are meaningless and interchangeable with the main episode at this point

Remember what was said at the very start of the episode (by Ronove)

The game has no love.

bernkastel claims to be ill. okay, i guess, whatever.

i don't even get it, weren't bern and lambda enemies when they were first introduced? and the bios said that lamba had imprisoned and tortured bern?

but now they're just best friends and they were basically on the same side this entire game

apparently the illness is boredom

yeah okay whatever

i guess the idea is that when you live for an eternity, you get so bored that you go crazy and become evil

well, sure, whatever.

????

and so, because battler died (whether its piece battler or meta battler, apparently the latter), and so comatose real-Beato sees it and disappears herself

hm

i have to say, it's interesting that such a huge link exists between battler and beatrice, whatever it is

from the way she first showed up at the end of episode 1, there was really no indication at all that battler was something special to her, or someone she had a history with. but yes episode 4 and 5 has been all about showing that battler is incredibly significant to her.

i wonder what it means.

god, you'd think i shoudl have trust in umineko, as the ep 5 ???? goes into even more detail about why knox's rules exist, because it's not satisfying if the answer to a mystery is something the player could never have guessed

but then why does umineko seem to have so many situations that they won't be able to solve adequately? and how does revealing "by the many, many scenes you saw on screen were just a lie" fit into that...? i understand that i could roughly get a sense of kinzo's scenes being lies in ep 1 because of how nice he was to natsuhi, but...

"Humans are weak creatures, who can't even think unless they have proof that reasoning is POSSIBLE."

yes, that's correct, which is why i stopped bothering to try to solve the game around the time it became clear that i didn't even know the rules

and uh, still haven't gotten them!

"In other words, they need encouragement, to let them know they can solve it if they work hard enough."

yes, this is true as well

it's interesting how virgilia continually refers to beatrice as a child

but it's the truth

i've noted before how beatrice acts incredibly childish. her pouting stuff in particular is childish, but really just everything always feels like a game to her. this game has a strong theme of childishness in general, which is why maria is such an important character, and its no surprise that maria and beatrice are so strongly linked.

something about beatrice continues to feel very "childish" (in a good way) even when she's horribly cruel or talking about sex stuff

anyway, umineko is telling me that the game is "explicitly solveable"

well, if i remembered details i might try but its been about 3 months since i started this chapter =P so...

hah, i like this localization of the riddle example

"why do dragons sleep during the day"
"to battle the knight"

this seems like its a direct translation from the japanese version, they use the same riddle. so it is truly incomprehensible in japanese.

anyway, based on this talk about the decalogue and the talk of the red

well

i'm not going to try to solve episode 5

but i can tell you how to solve it

alibis were given for all the other 17 characters in red

but that's not quite the truth, i imagine

for some characters, it was just said in red "they have an alibi at X time" or "they couldn't have left the <location>" or whatever, right?

if i wanted to solve this, i'd go back through the trial and figure out: which of those 17 characters had a red truth stated about them that seemed to rule them out 100%, but actually did leave some gap?