Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 5

(+) Yeah! (+)

Would you let Krauss be your financial advisor now?
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that is what i was referring to when i said

Dels posted...

i take it back, krauss is incompetent as hell LOL

i'm loving krauss as the comic relief though

So far, which spouse pair do you think is the healthiest one, relationship-wise?
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lol

rosa and her husband because they have enough good sense to stay away from each other!

nah that's not true, she desperately wants him back and he cheated

the answer is obviously eva and hideyoshi? they are the only one of three who show affection and support for each other and basically never criticize each other or show any negative feelings towards each other, plus they constantly have scenes where they reaffirm their love for each other

kyrie and rudolf ranks 2nd but he constantly jokes about other women and she resents him for the past

obviously natsuhi and krauss is 3rd

Dels posted...

I could be writing the most boring playthrough topic ever.

Maybe the reason no one replies isn't because I asked for no spoilers but because no one is reading it

But in my mind, you guys are following it and only holding back from commenting because I told you not to.

Pretty much. I mean, my readthrough gets like 1 comment per week and I allow spoiler discussion (since I've already read Umineko and Arria isn't gonna read the topic until she's done). So yeah, don't feel bad. Just keep posting. I keep posting updates to my topic even when I'm sure nobody reads it lol.
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it was just the first thing to come to mind of an example of "a situation where my reality can be determined by how i choose to view things"

like trying to come up with random nouns and just naming the things on your desk

another example could have been: someone who tells themselves "the reason i don't have any friends is because i am just so much smarter than everyone else... it makes sense they find me weird because of my high IQ"

it was just a way to talk about the game's themes but i appreciate the support =P

Dels posted...

I could be writing the most boring playthrough topic ever.

Maybe the reason no one replies isn't because I asked for no spoilers but because no one is reading it

But in my mind, you guys are following it and only holding back from commenting because I told you not to.

What if reality really was that no one was reading this? But my reality is that people are and are enjoying it

y'know?

that's just one example

Yeah you're right this is the worst playthrough in existence I'll stop reading now

Reg posted...

Yeah you're right this is the worst playthrough in existence I'll stop reading now

lambdadelta is just making you say that!

i know you're lying because of love

Really though, even discussions like this are hard to seriously participate in because I'm approaching it from a perspective that knows the answer and understands the intended themes, so avoiding accidental spoilers/hints is hard

also tbh imma keep following handsomeboy's playthrough and he'll probably mention all the important stuff about the murders in case i've forgotten it

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Judging by the credits and then the tea party part, I guess the rest of the episodes are a repeat of the same two days, but with a different outcome. And through this, the mystery is slowly revealed.

key word:

slowly

i'm gonna lol if natsuhi actually is the killer in ep1, and it's eva in ep2, and it really is rosa in ep2, and the truth is: the character who takes the gun is always the killer

handsomeboy2012 posted...

Despite denying it and saying she just wants to not be bored, Bernkastel is indeed helping me in some way, or whoever she's talking to

just you wait bro, she's gonna become a massive tool before you know it

episode 5 showing me as much backstory as possible about why EVERYONE NEEDS A LOT OF MONEY, RIGHT NOW

https://snag.gy/Y1NFiH.jpg

ummmmmmm

excuse me wtf?

the spelling changed!

What?

Natsuhi has an illegitimate son this time?

Yeah right!

This is the kind of obvious fake stuff Lambda has to force in to give sweet precious Natsuhi a believable motive for murder.

Natsuhi would never have an illegitimate child like that!

Sigh.

I was wrong.

I thought the last 4 chapters would discard the standard format.

And it sort of did for a bit.

But here we are, with the classic "happy days" music playing and the "omg wow battler you've grown" "wow i haven't seen maria in 6 years haha" "omg george and shannon are dating?!" inevitably coming up

plz let's just get to the deaths.

I think it's quite abbreviated here and basically nonexistent in future chapters.
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oh yeah.

this explains why when nanjo was asked about kinzo's health back in... god, i don't remember which episode anymore, his answer was like "well he's uh sick ish but like also fine and he could really die at any moment but also uh maybe not?"

Bern says there is at least one puzzle that can be solved on October 4th

I assume she means "Who gives Maria the umbrella and letter"

Battler seems to think so as well? But he's being vague.

But maybe we're gonna be able to get some insight on this?

As far as I recall, in most instances, the kids are all at the guesthouse, the adults are usually together-ish, but technically any servant could do it

The fact is, the servants have proven they have literally no free will and they will do anything anyone tells them to do as long as that person has some authority. So it's like, pretty easy to say, yes, any of Shannon/Kanon/Genji/maybe even Kumasawa would deliver that umbrella/envelope without even questioning it. Look at what they're already doing to cover up Kinzo's death!

Battler says he's spin the chessboard around and think less about who could have done it, but rather why it's an event that needs to happen at all.

Well, that's simple, isn't it? The mastermind wants to really sell this idea of a mysterious witch and her epitaph - so they make the introduction of it as grand as possible, so that it really feels like that's the important thing. But it isn't.

lol, and now, what, the blue haired girl (i assume) has shown up, drifted here from the sea? yeah riiiight. lamba you are really stretching things here! no 19th person allowed!

the new girl's art feels weird to me?

is there a different artist for answer arcs?

just something about her style feels different. or her eyes...?

She has an american style name like the kids

Interesting

oh ok

Bern says that this is literally just her

I mean yeah the hair gives it away I guess but I'm not used to seeing bern face forward to the screen lol so it looks quite different

i mean, anime is anime, but this girl looks absolutely ridiculous and it stretches my disbelief that the characters can take her seriously lol

7:00pm, i think

this chapter silly lol

some 12 year old girl shows up and just starts solving the epitaph riddle for everyone and they're all like "yes? tell us more!"

Very [good]
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Erika is also a totally legitimate Japanese name not loaned from the West, for the record.
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Oh. You know what, I didn't consider that.

Yeah, it's cool how Erika is a legit Japanese name, but also a legit Norse-based Western name. (My name is Erika irl. In my cringy weeaboo phase I wanted to learn how to write my name in Japanese and I was pleased to find out that since it's a legit Japanese name there are some ways to write it with kanji.)
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For what it's worth, I've been thinking about it, and I kind of want to move Shannon up in my mastermind likelihood rankings. Or at least, I want to increase the strength of my suspicion there.

When I think about all the themes of the game and her arcs, she's the best fit, narratively.

She represents the theme of social divide and cycle of abuse really well - Social divide because, of course, she is a servant, and is therefore treated as "lesser than", even though she deserves more. Just like how all the adults got treated badly by Kinzo and all their kids get treated badly by them as a result.

And she also represents the theme of "choosing" a better world for yourself, even if it's just in your imagination and/or your perspective - We have a chapter, chapter 2, where she specifically showed how she is willing to create an imaginary narrative (her whole thing with Beatrice) to make herself feel better about her crush. And also, she continually explains to Kanon her "growth" and how she is able to see the world with color now because of her PoV change. Which is a perfect representation of the themes Ange and Maria taught us so much about in episode 4.

So she's a great intersection of both of these core themes, and beyond that, she shows really strong convictions about it, because she explains them in depth to Kanon, and also she confronts Beatrice about them in episode 2. She proves that she's someone willing to stand up for herself, and even do whatever it takes to hold on to the "better" world she's made for herself.

Remember we also have the theme of "things in life are only worth it if you struggle for them" and/or "things in life have meaning even if they don't last forever", like the rose that blooms only for a while and then dies to the rain. She represents both of these themes in episode 2 as well, when she tells Beatrice that she's happy to have had what she had with George, even if it ends. I think a psycopathic killer (if she were one) would be able to justify killing the people she loves if she believes it's for a greater purpose and/or if she believes that the time they had together still counts even if she kills them. This could be the killer's PoV even if it's not her.

And she also shows in episode 2 that she is willing to do whatever is needed to achieve her goals. She travels to an island and smashes a mirror to release an evil witch so that she can get the boy she likes. No, that's not real, Beatrice doesn't exist, but, I think the false stories we're told still highlight aspects of the characters that do matter. And also, (and this isn't my main point, since I'm really just looking at this thematically atm), even if she didn't really smash a mirror because that's fake, she did go to a small island for some reason... and do something there... maybe...?

And again, like I said, Shannon's conflict with Beatrice in episode 2 is sort of the closest any of the human characters have come to having... really the most complex relationship with Beatrice. Kanon sees Beatrice as an evil foe. Natsuhi sees her as a friendly ally. Etc etc. Shannon goes from having her as a friend to having her as a foe who she has long complex debates with about the meaning of life. And I just got the sense that there was something notable about that.

So, when you put all that together, I think she's the perfect person to have a motive that represents all the core themes of the game - If she's the mastermind, then she is perpetuating the cycle of abuse that was forced onto her her whole life, and she's doing so to create a better world for herself because she can decide her world for herself, regardless of reality, and that may mean ignoring the bad things she does, or it may mean valuing those lives but still being able to move past it.

I'm aware I could be totally wrong here and look really silly, but if I'm right I hope I seem really smart.

I'm also aware that I'm not examining any of this mechanically. I know she dies first twilight in episode 1, I can't remember if her face is shown. Episode 2 she lives for quite a while and the death isn't confirmed later, I don't think. Episode 3 she dies in those closed rooms which is a tricky bit. Episode 4 she's with the prison group for a while and I can't recall if the order of the deaths near the end means she had a chance to leave.

But the fact is that every single potential mastermind has at least one episode where they clearly die, so I don't know if that can rule anyone out. I remember sometime during episode 3 or 4 I tried to make a list of if anyone had a clear pattern of surviving twilights more often, or not having their body confirmed, and I don't really think that's true, especially after episode 4 where everyone died. So I'm not sure I can really say much based on that anyway.

And anyway, I think episode 5 is currently being set up to show us that there can be different murderers in each episode.

But the game still needs a main villain. "Mastermind" doesn't have to always mean "killer".

So you had a mastermind ranking, right. Just from their personality, who do you think are likely to be a killer then? Since if you say mastermind =/= killer, they require subtly different traits.
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I don't see the point in trying to predict that, sadly.

This episode seems to be trying to tell me that different episodes can have different murderers. Natsuhi will kill in this one because a lost illegitimate child somehow makes her do it and/or because Kinzo's death secret leads to a motive. But she's not the killer in episodes 2, 3, or 4, probably. Maybe episode 1. (I don't even remember how she dies in 3? Just randomly in the guest house or something yeah near the end?)

So it's sort of like... if anyone can have a motive to kill depending on which episode it is and how the circumstances change, it's not necessarily interesting to me? Especially since there can be multiple killers, or accomplices, or etc. Even Natsuhi, the most innocent character ever, can be made a murderer, so I don't see the point in trying to predict who will or won't be one...

I see, so you're saying anyone can be a killer depending on the circumstances. Hmm...
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I didn't quite mean it so philosophically =P But yes, apparently

Oh.

Bern says that the "riddle that can be solved before the first twilight" is the epitaph.

I thought she meant the puzzle of who gives Maria the letter+umbrella

Well, this works too

I'd love to solve that epitaph, haha...

I mean, Eva in episode 3 was able to solve it by looking stuff up in books?

So how am I able to solve it?

Especially if it in any way relates to kanji in names lol. That'd suck for localization

Battler admits "well it was hard so i just sort of waited and hoped more clues would come up" which is, again, the game basically telling me they know how I'll think, because yes, that's exactly what I did as well

And Bern mocks us/him for it

This feels a little forced

I like it when mysteries get solved naturally as the story progresses

Not Bern just saying "Okay we're gonna solve the epitaph now, let me just show you the clues you need"

But whatever, let's see where this is going

So when Bern said she was gonna show us all the fragments we need

She really just meant she was gonna show us a bunch of episode 3

Huh

Bern is finally making some sense

Pointing out that a 6-character word fits very well with the first twilight, which is 6 characters

Wasn't the next part something about "the two will tell you of"... something?

Is that referencing the second twilight?

But I can't remember, had the second twilight happened yet when Eva found that stuff? No, the second twilight was Rosa+Maria, right? So, hm?

Lol

The localizers had to do something here

in English Battler says "the first twilight" has more than 6 characters

in japanese he says "the first twilight" only has 4 characters!

sorry if anyone was hoping i'd try to solve the riddle on my own, puzzles just aren't my thing. i'll let bern tell me the answer