Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 5

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Dels
04/14/19 2:23:50 AM
101
oh, battler even says that in english

but in japanese he tries to translate the japanese to english, as "1st night". you can hear him say this lol in the voice acting, fasuto naito.
Dels
04/14/19 2:25:21 AM
102
lmao they just gave up, when eva talks about it a minute later they just literally show the kanji
Dels
04/14/19 2:26:34 AM
103
i wonder if there's anything to the fact that they are talking about "characters" (letters), but it is "characters" who are dying. and this is a game that very much acknowledges the 4th-wall-ish thing, that these really are characters.
Dels
04/14/19 2:55:03 AM
104
Uh, wow?

piece-Battler works to solve the epitaph with Erika

and Battler comments on how smart he is

and Bern says "you were gone so I controlled your piece"

so basically she's saying that any character (aka piece) could technically be controlled by the witches playing the game at any point?

that just adds an extra level onto the "literally anyone could do anything and any scene i see could be fake" thing, which continues to make the game feel kinda pointless
Dels
04/14/19 3:48:04 AM
105
So we give up on solving more because we don't know which 6 characters to remove

Guess we need to wait for 6 to die?

That is interesting though because there's a different 6 each time, so wouldn't that make the solution different each time...?
Dels
04/14/19 3:49:39 AM
106
also wait a minute, wasn't jessica dead in the first twilight this episode?

man i have trouble believing natsuhi would really kill jessica at all, not to mention first lol
Dels
04/14/19 3:57:36 AM
107
erika breaks into the library room to get an atlas because of course she does, and piece-battler doesn't find that weird at all because yeah whatever

10pm
Dels
04/14/19 4:01:48 AM
108
lol

this game makes no sense

as natsuhi is talking to beatrice/ronove/virgilia, they start talking about how erika is bernkastel's piece and how bernkastel also introduced the illegitimate son

like uh

are they saying that in front of natsuhi?

is natsuhi imagining that?

is it just lambda's storytelling?

makes no sense...
Dels
04/14/19 4:27:06 AM
109
okay so erika spends some time with battler and reveals that she's just as much of (if not more) of an asshole than bern is

because this is umineko and we can't have anyone likeable or relateable
Dels
04/14/19 4:28:27 AM
110
like am i missing something here

am i gonna rank erika low on my rankings and people will be like "OMG NO ERIKA'S THE BEST"

she's like a weird creepy loli girl whose personality is that she's a condescending narcissist and likes to act smarter than everyone and hates anyone who doesn't praise her, and not only that, but she's a literal mary sue
Dels
04/14/19 4:28:41 AM
111
why was this girl in the icon on the patcher? please tell me it's not 4 chapters of erika
Dels
04/14/19 4:31:32 AM
112
and then kinzo appears

because this is something battler sees, can we assume it's the truth?

something that looked like kinzo... appeared?
Dels
04/14/19 4:34:25 AM
113
anyway, i guess they solved the riddle without any deaths

so, guess it's possible
Dels
04/14/19 4:36:58 AM
114
can we stop saying "intellectual rapist" please
Dels
04/14/19 4:39:11 AM
115
she even has a gimmick phrase. "even this level of reasoning is possible for furudo erika." grooooan.
Dels
04/14/19 4:41:43 AM
116
i guess i'm basically not really very enthused by this game atm

when you consider that the game has basically told me "any scene could've been fake at any time" and then "any character can act out of character at any time because the witch can control them" and then "even things battler experiences that you see on screen could be wrong" and all of this on top of throwing in an absolutely obnoxious new character in a chapter where you're already forcing in some random illegitimate son and proving that anyone can be a killer depending on the whims of the gamemaster?

meh meh meh

let's see if the game can redeem itself for me. there better be some good clues to the game's mysteries here. i swear if any of these mysteries are resolved by just "oh yeah this scene you watched was totally fake haha" i'll just roll my eyes
Dels
04/14/19 4:42:46 AM
117
like i could accept that any scene with magic in it was a fake. the game all but explicitly told me that denying magic was how i win.

but when you then tell me that every scene with kinzo was fake, even the ones before i had any reason to think i was being shown fake scenes

it just makes everything feel pointless

why should i care about mysteries in a game where anything can be a lie told to the player?
Dels
04/14/19 4:43:13 AM
118
10:45pm
Eerieka
04/14/19 5:32:52 AM
119
Dels posted...
like am i missing something here

am i gonna rank erika low on my rankings and people will be like "OMG NO ERIKA'S THE BEST"

she's like a weird creepy loli girl whose personality is that she's a condescending narcissist and likes to act smarter than everyone and hates anyone who doesn't praise her, and not only that, but she's a literal mary sue


Haha. I love Erika because of how awful she is.
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Sceptilesolar
04/14/19 6:05:50 AM
120
Dels posted...
when you consider that the game has basically told me "any scene could've been fake at any time" and then "any character can act out of character at any time because the witch can control them" and then "even things battler experiences that you see on screen could be wrong" and all of this on top of throwing in an absolutely obnoxious new character in a chapter where you're already forcing in some random illegitimate son and proving that anyone can be a killer depending on the whims of the gamemaster?


At least some of these conclusions you've come to are not things the game is trying to tell you at all.
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Just killing time until the world ends.
Raka_Putra
04/14/19 6:14:44 AM
121
Erika is annoying.

Also well I don't know if it'll help or not but even for every lie there's a reason behind the lie.

Like if someone says "I went to the gym with my friend" and then you find out it's a lie, you can surmise there's something to it.

Or if you want to drop it that's your choice too I guess.
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Dels
04/14/19 2:34:47 PM
122
I'm not dropping the game, don't worry. Just not very happy with it atm.
Dels
04/14/19 2:38:05 PM
123
I'm aware there are "reasons" for every lie

The magic stuff is a lie because it has to be

The Kinzo scenes... this gets a bit more debateable. The ep1 scene with Natsuhi was obviously a lie in retrospect, every scene where Kinzo is alone must be a lie just to further the idea of the witches game (i.e. throwing his ring out the window), but Kinzo also had scenes with Nanjo and Genji and the servants, some of them weren't even particularly "special" (like Natsuhi's was) so I'm having trouble really getting how or why I was meant to even consider it was a lie, or what the game is trying to tell me. Like if there's a "reason" for every lie, why was there, like, a scene of Kinzo and Nanjo playing chess and talking about life? Or w/e. I can't remember the details of what they talked about. But that scene was "mundane" enough that I wouldn't expect it to be a lie, which makes me think: What other "mundane" scenes have also been lies for no reason?
Dels
04/14/19 2:41:41 PM
124
Sceptilesolar posted...
Dels posted...
when you consider that the game has basically told me "any scene could've been fake at any time" and then "any character can act out of character at any time because the witch can control them" and then "even things battler experiences that you see on screen could be wrong" and all of this on top of throwing in an absolutely obnoxious new character in a chapter where you're already forcing in some random illegitimate son and proving that anyone can be a killer depending on the whims of the gamemaster?


At least some of these conclusions you've come to are not things the game is trying to tell you at all.


meh, I may be exaggerating.

I suppose it's likely that Bern saying "I controlled Battler and made him smarter and made him say things" is meant to imply that this is the first and only time a "piece" has been controlled? But also maybe not?

And like

We're immediately told that Battler seeing Kinzo can still be not-real because maybe he imagined it. Therefore maybe he didn't actually see Beatrice at the end of ep 4? But I dunno, is there anything else Battler has "imagined" during eps 1 to 4 that I just didn't even realize could or would be imagination?

It just annoys me that the game is so clearly aware of how to make a mystery fair and solveable, that's the whole point of the red text, the clear definition of closed rooms and clearly saying who is dead, and even talking about knox's rules, which basically exist to prevent mysteries from having any unsolveable bullshit. And yet the game seems to also have a ton of unsolveable bullshit because it shows you fake things on screen.

I guess I'm salty about the "Kinzo has been dead all along" thing because I just don't see how a viewer was meant to have any idea those scenes were fake.

Hell didn't some servants have alibis in episode 2 because we saw them talking to Kinzo? Now those are all thrown out the window...
Dels
04/14/19 2:42:23 PM
125
Anyway, I'm obviously gonna stick with it and see where it goes from here... But those are my feelings atm
Dels
04/14/19 2:47:12 PM
126
I was also basically under the impression that "As soon as something magical starts happening on screen, you can assume the scene is no longer being portrayed as it happened in reality"

But I thought that meant the fakeness starts when the magic starts

i.e. Rosa goes out to garden alone. This really happened. Suddenly, EVAtrice appears. I now know everything afterwards is fake.

But then look at episode 4. Characters are all in dining room with Kinzo. Suddenly, a bunny girl appears. I think "Okay, that's my cue to know that everything from this point on is fake." But actually it turns out the entire scene was fake from the moment Kinzo appeared? Was the part of it before Kinzo appeared fake too? Or no? I don't know the rules anymore.

And this applies to everywhere. Like, episode 2 - Kanon and Jessica. I assumed it was all 100% real, until the moment a goat shows up, then I know it's fake. But by the ep 4 logic, this could mean that the sections showing Kanon in the hallway, Kanon leaving her room and coming back, etc, who has a key, who opened the door, etc, could also be fake?

Anyway, no need to respond to any of this. Just saying, this game makes it very hard to know what the rules are, and it doesn't quite feel fair atm.
Dels
04/14/19 2:49:26 PM
127
I suppose episode 2 started to imply these things? When the servants saw dead-Kanon, we saw him on screen and of course we know that scene is fake since it can't be real.

But they did go to the parlor and say "We saw Kanon!" which, since it's in front of Battler, means they really did say that? Since things that Battler experiences are not lies...? (Theoretically) So we can assume they a) saw something that they were sure was Kanon or b) lied.
Sceptilesolar
04/14/19 2:51:26 PM
128
EP4 has the same thing, where several characters describe magical happenings to Battler. EP5 has already tried to explain some of how this works, and it will clarify a lot of it by the end.
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Just killing time until the world ends.
Dels
04/14/19 2:59:43 PM
129
Yes, I was referencing ep4 when I said that since people say they saw a magical thing to Battler, we can assume that they really are saying that. That's why the phonecalls were so strangely relevant, and Kyrie must have a reason to a) believe she saw those things or b) lie.

Now, because it narratively makes sense, I know that those phonecalls must be totally real. But by the same logic of "Battler just thought he saw Kinzo, but he didn't", I hope there couldn't ever be "Oh, Battler heard someone say this, but he just misheard haha, he was so panicked over everything that he accidentally thought Kyrie said "Believe in magic" but missed that she said "Don't believe in magic" hahaha"

I know that won't happen, but still.
Dels
04/14/19 3:01:07 PM
130
Anyway, looks like the other guy is a lost cause already in his playthrough

Hasn't even started episode 2 and he already believes magic is real? And that Beatrice is the one who did everything?

Way to lose before you are even challenged... The point of the game is to deny witches, dude! Come on!
Dels
04/14/19 3:02:35 PM
131
Surely when he sees literal goats appear and murder Jessica and Kanon, he'll realize it must be a hoax?
Popcorn_Fairy
04/14/19 3:50:52 PM
132
Dels posted...
when you consider that the game has basically told me "any scene could've been fake at any time" and then "any character can act out of character at any time because the witch can control them" and then "even things battler experiences that you see on screen could be wrong" and all of this on top of throwing in an absolutely obnoxious new character in a chapter where you're already forcing in some random illegitimate son and proving that anyone can be a killer depending on the whims of the gamemaster?


Just remember that Bern and Lambda aren't Beato.
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Tom Bombadil
04/14/19 4:45:13 PM
133
Dels posted...
am i gonna rank erika low on my rankings and people will be like "OMG NO ERIKA'S THE BEST"


yes
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Dels
04/14/19 6:13:19 PM
134
Popcorn_Fairy posted...

Just remember that Bern and Lambda aren't Beato.


Yeah I basically was always under the impression that the things I was being shown in eps 1 to 4 were legit. At least episode 5 is being quite upfront about the fact that the gameboard this time is fucked up.
Dels
04/15/19 1:16:38 AM
135
i hope no one thinks i am like

trashing the game or whatever

i'm not stopping and i have no desire to stop

but this topic is for me to say how i'm feeling about the game and that's how the game is making me feel atm

i'll keep at it and i'm keeping an open mind and hoping the game will impress me
Raka_Putra
04/15/19 1:20:58 AM
136
It all would be so much easier if you'd just submit to the witch...kihihihi.
---
I don't wanna show off no more.
Play the saucy Swiss miss no more.
Eerieka
04/15/19 3:56:43 AM
137
Dels posted...
i hope no one thinks i am like

trashing the game or whatever

i'm not stopping and i have no desire to stop

but this topic is for me to say how i'm feeling about the game and that's how the game is making me feel atm

i'll keep at it and i'm keeping an open mind and hoping the game will impress me


It's all good. I think a lot of people felt that way when they were in the same parts you are. Just keep going.
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Reg
04/15/19 6:18:33 PM
138
I am of the opinion that Erika is very much a character that grows on you the more you see her. However, you also have to be of the opinion that utterly shitty people can make highly entertaining fictional characters to like her because, well, uh, yeah.
Dels
04/17/19 1:10:39 PM
139
handsomeboy2012 posted...
I know I ranked Kanon pretty high before, but he's a joyless person and I can't fathom him being boyfriend material. This chapter lowered my opinion on him a bit too.

Jessica has shit taste in boys.


yesssssssssss

i knew he'd get around to hating kanon after the things he said during episode 1
Dels
04/18/19 2:08:54 AM
140
so natsuhi is being dumb

she keeps insisting that they need father's permission before declaring battler the successor and letting him have the money

and krauss is like "shut up natsuhi" because obviously if she keeps saying that, they'll have no choice but to go talk to kinzo

but natsuhi isn't very smart =(

and is backing herself into a corner
Dels
04/18/19 2:09:25 AM
141
but aren't the twilight deaths, like, the cousins? that's what i remember. a bit weird to kill all the kids when the adults are your problem. is this really setting up for natsuhi as a murderer???
Dels
04/18/19 2:11:36 AM
142
Virgilia says in red that "the gold of the golden land belongs to this child" (aka beato...)

but that doesn't really make much sense. the gold does seem to be a real tangible thing, and beato, well, isn't. besides the human beatrice who died many years ago.

so is taht it? the gold did come from that human beatrice...?
Dels
04/18/19 2:13:23 AM
143
Battler is talking some weird stuff I don't get. Virgilia says the riddle "doesn't matter"t o beato, and Battler is like "ah, so the solving of the riddle and the murders are both equally weighted for Beato" and I'm like, what???????????

But whatever I guess.
Dels
04/18/19 2:14:42 AM
144
To Battler, it's apparently a huge mystery why Beato wants people to solve the epitaph riddle

But idk, I never saw it as needing to be some huge thing, like it could just be part of the act, helps cover things up, explains/hides motives, etc?

So I'm not really getting where the super deep significance is. I guess there is something to the fact that there is this riddle in the first place, but, the fact is, the riddle was made by Kinzo. Beato doesn't exist, she couldn't have come up with this riddle on her own.
Dels
04/18/19 2:15:20 AM
145
Also, the riddle got solved in episode 3 by Eva and the killings didn't stop.

Granted, Beato was no longer "in charge" then but uh still doesn't make sense
Dels
04/18/19 2:16:50 AM
146
Battler keeps talking about "why would Beato kill people like this, following the epitaph"

but

she's not

humans are doing that

why is battler forgetting his own main PoV?

unless he just means "why does beato choose to create gameboards where that happens", but meh, I don't really know if these murders are just "beato is the gamemaster and makes them happen" or if they really did happen
Dels
04/18/19 2:19:12 AM
147
Battler talks about reasons for killing in accordance with the epitaph, comparing it to mystery novels.

I did this back in episode 1 but

He says a killer could pretend to follow the epitaph to confuse you about their motive, and/or alibi

He says someone could therefore be pretending to be dead since we think there must be 6 dead, but it's 5, adn etc

But then he says the red confirmed to us taht everyone is dead

But is that true? Was every single murder confirmed to all be real? That can't be. I thought only some were...
Dels
04/18/19 2:20:01 AM
148
He does mention that it can confuse people about the order of events

And I know that's right - I remember some murders seemed out of order, I just don't remember which. Maybe some servant deaths in... episode 2...? We saw them in one order, but they were listed in another order with where the stakes were in the bodies.
Dels
04/18/19 2:21:43 AM
149
Battler theorizes that the culprit might hate someone the most and plots things specifically to terrify them and then maybe kill them last

Well Battler, you're the one who keeps surviving to the end, soooo
Dels
04/18/19 2:22:24 AM
150
I don't remember if there's anyone else who survives a long time usually though

I mean, the adults keep dying in the first twilight usually

George often survives quite a while though I believe
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