Board 8 > Board 8 National Football League League (B8NFLL) Season 11: Week 15 and Beyond!

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ShatteredElysium
05/17/19 5:03:07 PM
#251:


Oh yeah goes without saying dibs on Magic. I will murder bitches for them
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ScareChan
05/17/19 5:24:12 PM
#252:


Kangz
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TheSultanOfSlam
05/17/19 5:32:49 PM
#253:


Dont know basketball that much id be interested with players from early 2000s lol or a mlb one would be cool too
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Emeraldegg
05/17/19 5:36:47 PM
#254:


Sadly, this is 2k19, the most recent one (it was on sale for like 75% and still is on steam) so it won't be early 2000s. Sorry! (Dibs on charlotte if this happens, unless like eddv comes in and says he wants them badly)
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KCF0107
05/17/19 5:59:02 PM
#255:


My interest will be tied to changes 2K made to its series. I don't know if it was just Scare and Shattered in this conversation, but back in 2015, I intended to create an NBA version of this. I had a small list of seven conditions I found to be essential, and through extensive research, no game checked off all the boxes. I haven't played a new NBA game since 2017, so maybe things have changed for the better since.
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Emeraldegg
05/17/19 6:13:33 PM
#256:


What were the conditions? I would greatly appreciate all help from an experienced sim runner
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KCF0107
05/17/19 7:05:08 PM
#257:


I will post them tomorrow when I don't only have my phone.
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ShatteredElysium
05/17/19 8:20:31 PM
#258:


I think the big one that most don't offer is the ability to take control of as many franchises as you want and then to be able to resign from them or take control of a new one whenever you want.

An NBA one is going to be a far bigger task than NFL I think (or maybe not considering we have a baseball league one?). Just because of the length of the season and the importance of the draft/scouting. Cap is probably harder to manage too with it not being a hard cap and all the luxury tax nonsense and the such. Trades also because a bigger pain in the ass to line up due to that too.
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ScareChan
05/17/19 8:22:07 PM
#259:


Raven did one and I know I started like 9 - 1

and he would stream some of the games it was great

and then he left the ass
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Emeraldegg
05/17/19 8:32:47 PM
#260:


ShatteredElysium posted...
I think the big one that most don't offer is the ability to take control of as many franchises as you want and then to be able to resign from them or take control of a new one whenever you want.

An NBA one is going to be a far bigger task than NFL I think (or maybe not considering we have a baseball league one?). Just because of the length of the season and the importance of the draft/scouting. Cap is probably harder to manage too with it not being a hard cap and all the luxury tax nonsense and the such. Trades also because a bigger pain in the ass to line up due to that too.

I also believe what you say about the ai/user swaps to be true, though I haven't found that out yet (I probably will over the next day or so)

I would probably do it on an in-game weekly schedule, rather than having a dedicated session per player game. I believe I am able to see the prospect list even during the season, and it even gives me several different in-game big boards with which we can deduce the overall likely order of the draft list. I could of course put that out for users to see so they can plan ahead.

Also, I have the option of instituting a hard cap if we so desire. I believe I could even set it to be the same as the soft cap, so there wouldn't be any luxury tax nonsense.

Trades from what little I've seen so far are pretty good in that the system assigns a star rating to how valuable a piece is, which makes it at least a little easier at a glance.
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Emeraldegg
05/17/19 10:44:11 PM
#261:


Good news! Preliminary findings suggest I can switch user ai control for any team at any time. However, I did find that the hard cap can't go near the soft cap, so there would still be luxury tax stuff. But at least it's a hard cap!
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KCF0107
05/18/19 5:51:01 PM
#262:


Okay, here were the main qualifications that I was looking for when I was interested in starting this up. The first two were absolute requirements for obvious reasons. Not being included meant the league would be DoA.

1. Ability to control multiple user teams at once with no number cap
2. Ability to shift between User and AI control at some point every season


This is something that more modern sports games have gotten away from, but obviously you need to be able to control multiple teams and no limitations on it. Some games I found only gave you a max of four teams, but you need to have the option of all 30 teams being under user control. Also, given the fluctuations in participation, you have to be given the option to switch from user to AI and vice-versa at least once every season.

You claim to be able to do this in 2K19, which is good because NBA 2K used to not feature either of the two things in their franchise mode. Otherwise, you could only do what Nick would do with MLB The Show.

The next few points I believe are imperative to maintain a healthy league in the long-term, so I too find them necessary.

3. Ability to do away with the soft cap
4. Potential rating is eliminated or at least has minimal ties to player development
5. Fantasy draft option


I haven't been shy about my feelings toward the NBA's soft cap. In the video game world, it is ripe for creating a league of haves and have nots 5-10 seasons down the line. In my experience with the 2K series, you can change it (I prefer hard to no cap in a league like this) and you have said that it remains in 2K19. I'm not sure why the luxury tax is still a thing though. That seems like an oversight on 2K's part. Since you didn't mention a no cap option, I won't bring up my sub-qualifications for using that.

The fourth thing is huge, and if its still a thing, I won't be participating, and I encourage you to look into an alternative game. If not, you will have to do A TON of playtesting and come up with complicated measures to prevent the league from the issues this will face. The beauty of B8NFLL and using Madden 06 is that all players who enter the league, no matter where they were drafted (or even undrafted), the sky is the limit for them. I find this common in basketball games (and hockey), and NBA 2K did feature this as of 2K16 or 17, but they use a rating called potential that ruins player development and the talent distribution throughout the league will become ugly in the future. The potential rating is an arbitrary overall rating ceiling that for each player that renders their actual individual production meaningless and the value of all but the top few draft picks worthless.

As the incumbent veterans start to regress and retire (players in NBA2K tend to regress after X years in the league instead of age, which I find disappointing and lame), the amount of elite or simply even great talent shrinks dramatically as only the top few picks in the draft (usually all the high-potential rating prospects are at the top of the projected draft board) will reach the 80s or 90s. This hurts trading, parity, and the opportunity to field a competitive team in short span. In B8NFLL, you can turn a terrible team into a division winner and playoff team in one offseason. In my time spent with NBA 2K games, it took seasons and seasons, which would make a lot of users feel disenfranchised. If this is still prevalent in NBA 2K, then good luck coming up with a solution. If you can change the playoff format, making all series single eliminations is an absolute must to give anyone who makes the playoffs at least some semblance of hope.
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KCF0107
05/18/19 5:51:04 PM
#263:


The fifth one I am extremely confident is included in NBA 2K still as nearly all sports games offer a fantasy draft. You can't roll out with the original rosters or the league already begins with a massive talent gap that won't improve. In Madden 06, the original team ratings for teams ranged as low as the upper-60s to as high as the mid-90s. In B8NFLL with the fantasy draft, the team ratings were all between 85 and 87 to begin, and since then, no team has dropped below 83 and risen above 91. Never. Every team has had a fighting chance every season as a result. You don't have to do a randomized draft like I did since there will be 15-ish players on each team instead of the 50-ish for B8NFLL, but I would do playtesting to see what kind of gaps you are looking at. Because of what I said above, people might gravitate toward younger superstars since they will want to hold onto them for dear life.
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KCF0107
05/18/19 5:56:33 PM
#264:


6. No Auto Saves

Modern sports games have gone all-auto save. I don't know if it has to do with cheating for achievements or something, but whatever. You are human, you will make mistakes. With the autosave, there will be mistakes that you can't take back that you absolutely need to. With you playing on Steam, I assume you can backup your saves, so you will absolutely have to take advantage of that often.

7. Ability to alter coaching strategies and minute distributions

Giving the users more freedom and opportunity to mold a team into their own vision is a great way to keep people involved. There's no way that NBA 2K doesn't still offer this, but you'd be surprised that many basketball games don't

8. UI is pleasant to view

This is a bonus one for you. You will spending a hundred hours or so every season on this, so you will be looking at the menus a ton. You have to like what you see or you will grow weary in a hurry. I always liked Madden 06's aesthetics, so I didn't have this issue.
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KCF0107
05/18/19 5:57:07 PM
#265:


I had to hurry, but do not hesitate to ask me for more clarification on anything I said.
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ShatteredElysium
05/18/19 6:07:51 PM
#266:


I know that in NBA 2k17 (or maybe 16) that although they had the potential rating, players could definitely exceed it and then the potential rating would increase to suit. Like I remember Evan Fournier had a potential of like 80-82 or something but after like 5 years in charge he was up to like an 88 in my team.

It was definitely easier for a player with higher potential to increase quickly but a player definitely wasn't hard capped by the potential rating. Any player who got above like a 78 or something also became a whiny little bitch about not being a starter / their minutes unless they had the team player perk. So you basically had to trade players or lose them for nothing

That being said, the disparity in the league did become pretty glaring by like season 5 or so. The AI was also fucking stupid in trades because although they had the star rating assignment for players/picks, how it weighted that was pretty far off base. That potential played into it a lot but the AI continuously offeres ridiculously bad trades no matter how many times you said no. The AI was also terrible at judging what a draft pick was worth so if thats still the case you would have to restrict AI player trades or step in for the AIs behalf (more so in regards to protections)
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ShatteredElysium
05/18/19 6:11:28 PM
#267:


It's actually kinda baffling that in all these years nobody has brought out an NFL or NBA or college sim that just uses the Football Manager type engine which has been fantastic since like the late 90s
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Emeraldegg
05/18/19 6:52:27 PM
#268:


So full disclosure, I have been doing study on how exactly nba financials work so I can better understand things if I ever do this, and I continue to study. There are still many things I haven't quite grasped yet, but hopefully that will change as I study further. As far as the game, I haven't done much specific playtesting, as 2k19 has a bug where it seems cloud saves corrupt files after a period of time (I already experienced this once) and have been more focused on making sure that does not happen without cloud saving before I get into the nitty-gritty of the game itself. Since I've turned off cloud saving, I've loaded the franchise 2 times and no corruption so far 1 season in, so that bodes well. That being said, here are my preliminary findings for your criteria.

1-2) Like I mentioned, early results show I can switch the number of user teams at any time without limitations. During the offseason and midseason both, I was able to access a menu to switch user/ai teams, as well as change what processes were automated for user teams and which were manual (IE if we didn't want to worry about staffing stuff, or scouting, or g-league, etc, as we do in your league, that is an option)

3) I still don't entirely understand how exactly cap in NBA works, between the soft cap, luxury tax, and hard cap (commonly referred to as the apron in research I've done.) The way I understand it, there's a soft cap, then if you're above that you're in luxury tax, then after a certain point you hit the apron? In any case, sadly there is no option to remove the soft cap, or to lower the hard cap to the soft cap (in essence removing the soft cap) but I can raise the soft cap and lower the hard cap so that the space between them is vastly reduced. I will have to do playtesting though, because a big structure of how nba contracts are done seem to be based around using "exceptions" which occur when you're above the soft cap but below the hard cap. No idea yet if making the caps closer together will affect that at all. There is also an option to turn the cap off completely.

4) Potential is a stat in the game unfortunately, but I will be doing playtesting to see how many of the 1st rd picks come away with what potential rating on average, how much it affects progression, and how much player production affects it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't you said in the past that player progression is majorly influenced by how the unit on a team does? IE isn't it possible for a guy to not be good/not play at all, but still get a bump by virtue of the team he's on? I'm not saying that player production doesn't matter at all in such a situation if that's true, but I do think that in it's own way, that system marginalizes player production as well. I think just as a concept, player potential allows for situations where a team can develop a player even in a bad situation, making it easier to come back from the depths. Of course, this all depends on how potential is distributed in the draft. If it's a system where many 1st rounders have at least average potential, and that chance is higher the further up you are, I think that's fine, as opposed to something like "This 5th overall pick has a D potential for no reason other than random chance" Playtesting will uncover exactly how this goes down, but sorry to disappoint you.

5) There is a fantasy draft to start the league option, and I can either randomize it or select the order. I can also simulate the entire draft as you did to start b8nfll.

6) I can turn off autosaves at any time.

7) I haven't delved into the coaching menu at all, but there was an section titled Coach in the menu in the first place, so I have to assume this exists.

8) It's fine? I don't have an issue with it. I haven't run into anything yet where it's been like "Man this is really poorly designed."
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Emeraldegg
05/18/19 6:56:02 PM
#269:


ShatteredElysium posted...
I know that in NBA 2k17 (or maybe 16) that although they had the potential rating, players could definitely exceed it and then the potential rating would increase to suit. Like I remember Evan Fournier had a potential of like 80-82 or something but after like 5 years in charge he was up to like an 88 in my team.

It was definitely easier for a player with higher potential to increase quickly but a player definitely wasn't hard capped by the potential rating. Any player who got above like a 78 or something also became a whiny little bitch about not being a starter / their minutes unless they had the team player perk. So you basically had to trade players or lose them for nothing

That being said, the disparity in the league did become pretty glaring by like season 5 or so. The AI was also fucking stupid in trades because although they had the star rating assignment for players/picks, how it weighted that was pretty far off base. That potential played into it a lot but the AI continuously offeres ridiculously bad trades no matter how many times you said no. The AI was also terrible at judging what a draft pick was worth so if thats still the case you would have to restrict AI player trades or step in for the AIs behalf (more so in regards to protections)

The good thing about this, although it would take me a hell of a long time to get used to considering my current knowledge level, is that there are actually sliders where you can control how valuable the CPU considers aspects of a trade, even splitting it based on what state the team is in. For example, I can make a 1st rd current year pick EXTREMELY way more valuable to a team branded as "rebuilding," and I can change a separate slider for how a "competing" team would value such a pick, even above or below its default, and I believe you can do this with player archetypes as well. You can also set sliders for how much less valuable picks in the future are. For example, trading for a pick 2 years from now will already be less valuable than trading for that same pick this year, but I can change just how much more or less valuable that pick will be, up to 5 years of picks out. So there's def a lot of customization in how CPU values things. I can also straight up remove CPU trades if I so wish, both to other CPUs and to Users.
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ShatteredElysium
05/18/19 8:07:29 PM
#270:


Let's see a rough run down on the NBA salary cap

Soft Cap - This is the cap you have to be under when making new signings. So for example the NBA cap this season is 109m. If you are over 109m then the signings you can make are limited. At that point you can only make the following signings:

Rookie Scale Contract - You can go over the cap to sign your 1st round rookie (but not 2nd round rookies although you can use the below exceptions to sign 2nd round rookies)

Mid Level Exception - Once a year you can offer a contract called the mid level exception. This contract is typically under like 8m a year. It's a bit more complex than that but that's a simple way of doing it

Bi-Annual Exception - This can be offered once every 2 years and the contract must be 3.29m or less. It can be split amongst multiple players. If you use the Bi-annual exception, you cannot use the MLE in the same year. It also makes the hard cap (Luxury cap) a true hard cap if you use it.

2 way contract - I doubt NBA 2k has these. These are development contracts for G-league players and are super cheap, you get I think 2 a year. Players on a 2 way contract are limited by the number of appearances they can make a year

Bird Rights - You can re-sign your own players and go over the cap to do so if you have their bird rights. Bird rights are earned after 3 seasons of playing for a team and critically bird rights are transferred in trades.

Minimum Salary - You can sign players to a minimum salary contract even if you are over the cap.

Hard Cap/Luxury Tax - This is the number where if you go over it, you are going to get charged out of your ass in an additional tax to the league. There's also a repeat offender tax that increases each year you are over the luxury tax. This tax is no joke. So like the Golden State Warriors if they stay together next year their wage bill will be like $150m but it will actually cost them $300m due to the repeat offender tax.

I would say even if the game doesn't let you, you should force players to be under the hard cap/luxury tax figure.
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Emeraldegg
05/18/19 8:29:33 PM
#271:


2k19 I believe actually does have 2-way contracts from what I understand. There is G-league, so I assume those come with it.

So the luxury tax and the hard cap is the same thing? IE you can go over the soft cap but still not be in the luxury tax? Does being in the luxury tax affect signings in any way, or could you theoretically not give a **** if you had enough money as an owner? Also from what it sounds like, the hard cap isn't actually a hard cap in the true sense of the word unless you use that Bi-Annual exception?
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ShatteredElysium
05/18/19 8:40:46 PM
#272:


Theoretically yes you could just say fuck the cap. I'm sure there's a few things you can't do when over the luxury tax but the biggest deterrent is the excess tax costs.

Realistically it's hard to go tons over the hard cap because when you're resigning your own players, the ones who typically put you over the cap, they have cap holds. So it's not as simple as just signing new players before re-signing your own (although that is usually the case anyway). To get to Golden State levels of cap you basically need the perfect storm of having people on low contracts / rookie contracts allowing you to sign a big name free agent to a max deal. Then your low contracts / rookie contracts get paid big deals afterwards.

It's kinda why rookie contracts are a great commodity as rookie contracts have a set salary scale depending on their pick number.
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TheSultanOfSlam
05/19/19 1:47:02 PM
#273:


Emeraldegg posted...
Sadly, this is 2k19, the most recent one (it was on sale for like 75% and still is on steam) so it won't be early 2000s. Sorry! (Dibs on charlotte if this happens, unless like eddv comes in and says he wants them badly)


Eh i might still play and draft people i know (probably mostly older players plus a few young guys i know lol)
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Eddv
05/19/19 6:50:33 PM
#274:


I do want in and I'll say you can have the Hornets, though I do want them.
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Emeraldegg
05/22/19 12:31:27 PM
#275:


Found out you can indeed change roster minutes and lineups against specific teams in the coaching menu

Something else I found out, there's different year versions of teams, so theoretically, we could both be the hornets. They even have the old logos!
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KCF0107
05/27/19 8:53:11 PM
#277:


Bump
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KCF0107
06/02/19 11:45:30 AM
#278:


bump
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KCF0107
06/03/19 11:27:44 PM
#279:


There's a non-zero chance I won't be on Discord for a few days, so I thought that I would ask if anyone has posted in the channel since Ranlom responded to my news about burrito. I was expecting something to happen today, but if so, it didn't take place in the topics
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TheKnightOfNee
06/03/19 11:49:40 PM
#280:


Nothing posted in there since that line yet. I'll try to remember to keep looking there.
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KCF0107
06/11/19 12:50:14 PM
#281:


Bump
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KCF0107
06/16/19 10:05:10 AM
#282:


New season topic:
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77794671
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