Current Events > Welfare reform in the 90s caused more anti-social behavior in children, not less
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| Balrog0 02/11/19 10:54:39 AM 1 | One of the large arguments behind welfare reform in switching AFDC to TANF was that 'welfare mothers' trapped their kids in a cycle of poverty and welfare dependency due to a culture of poverty. You still see this argument quite often, imo, but social progress has stymied how loudly and clearly they say it. A new paper from the National Bureau of Economic Research shows that, if anything, welfare reform caused kids to behave worse, not better, especially boys. This is despite the fact that there is some evidence that welfare reform did lower crime rates among mothers: https://www.nber.org/papers/w25527.pdf Welfare reform had no favorable effects on any of the youth behaviors examined and led to decreased volunteering among girls, increases in skipping school, damaging property, and fighting among boys, and increases in smoking and drug use among both boys and girls, with larger effects for boys (e.g., ~6% for boys compared to 4% for girls for any substance use). Maternal employment, supervision, and childs employment explain little of the effects. Overall, the intergenerational effects of welfare reform on adolescent behaviors were unfavorable, particularly for boys, and do not support longstanding arguments that limiting cash assistance leads to responsible behavior in the next generation. As such, the favorable effects of welfare reform for women may have come at a cost to the next generation, particularly to boys who have been falling behind girls in high school completion for decades. Pretty interesting stuff. --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| HylianFox 02/11/19 11:09:00 AM 2 | pretty sure the internet led to rise of anti-social behavior --- I like my beer cold, my TV loud, and my homosexuals FUH-LAMING! - Homer Simpson Don't be a turd. - Chris Pratt |
| King_Hellebuyck 02/11/19 11:10:26 AM 3 | How was welfare reformed in the 90s? Im not very familiar with it. --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy |
| Philoktetes 02/11/19 11:11:26 AM 4 | King_Hellebuyck posted... How was welfare reformed in the 90s? Im not very familiar with it. bill clinton got rid of it --- I don't think so, Tim. ~~ Pizza Crew ~~ |
| Antifar 02/11/19 11:12:10 AM 5 | King_Hellebuyck posted... How was welfare reformed in the 90s? Im not very familiar with it. Clinton gutted it --- kin to all that throbs |
| Sunburst 02/11/19 11:18:56 AM 6 | Clinton did the best he could to gut the bill led by fascist Newt Gingrich. IIRC, he even shut the government down for a while. But TANF did replace AFDC and life became a lot tougher for poor folks. Young men growing up in poverty were especially hit hard. The rich get richer and the poor get prison. --- A True Friend leaves paw prints on your heart |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 12:42:32 PM 7 | Antifar posted... King_Hellebuyck posted...How was welfare reformed in the 90s? Im not very familiar with it. I don't know how much program spending fell, because they made the funds available to use for things other than cash assistance for the poor. So basically they used a lot of funds that otherwise would have gone into poor peoples pockets to fund work support services of dubious efficacy --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| Zikten 02/11/19 12:46:58 PM 8 | My dad hates Bill Clinton cause he was an army officer and Bill changed the forced retirement age and made my dad quit the army when he turned like 50 or something |
| Fuparulez 02/11/19 12:50:05 PM 9 | Big surprise that paying people to be unproductive leads to more people being unproductive. --- It's the fat upper kitty area, and if you got one I wanna marry ya! |
| Questionmarktarius 02/11/19 12:50:45 PM 10 | Until "poverty" is grounds for CPS removal, we'll just continue attempts at well-meaning meddling and social engineering to no effect or making things worse. |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 12:53:46 PM 11 | Fuparulez posted... Big surprise that paying people to be unproductive leads to more people being unproductive. I think you might be misreading the claims of the paper due to your personal biases here, because it is saying that taking no-strings-attached money away from moms on welfare made their kids more violent and more likely to try drugs and to just generally be less pro-social --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| COVxy 02/11/19 1:32:44 PM 12 | Balrog0 posted... Fuparulez posted...Big surprise that paying people to be unproductive leads to more people being unproductive. waaat, no wai... --- =E[(x-E[x])(y-E[y])] |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 5:22:15 PM 13 | tag --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| legendary_zell 02/11/19 5:27:49 PM 14 | I see the usual suspects have little interest in this topic. It's a big flaw of humanity that people avoid things that challenge their fundamental assumptions about how the world works/cause and effect. Not that I'm above it all the time. --- |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 5:30:13 PM 15 | legendary_zell posted... I see the usual suspects have little interest in this topic. It's a big flaw of humanity that people avoid things that challenge their fundamental assumptions about how the world works/cause and effect. Not that I'm above it all the time. and to be fair, I am someone who has never bought the arguments about the value of work per se and have instead always been more concerned with the side effects of things like work requirements -- so this definitely confirms my biases I do like to think that I engage with topics where that isn't the case, too, but idk --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| tonicpalin 02/11/19 5:35:00 PM 16 | Antifar posted... King_Hellebuyck posted...How was welfare reformed in the 90s? Im not very familiar with it. WTF. I hate clintons now. Guess I'm communist nazi now! --- http://www.palinstravels.co.uk/ ...just in case anyone loves sarah palin... |
| Antifar 02/11/19 5:37:08 PM 17 | tonicpalin posted... WTF. I hate clintons now. Guess I'm communist nazi now! uhhh --- kin to all that throbs |
| ScazarMeltex 02/11/19 5:37:12 PM 18 | Balrog0 posted... legendary_zell posted...I see the usual suspects have little interest in this topic. It's a big flaw of humanity that people avoid things that challenge their fundamental assumptions about how the world works/cause and effect. Not that I'm above it all the time. The only people who talk about the value of work are peoplw who profit from the labor of others. --- "If you wish to converse with me define your terms" Voltaire |
| Questionmarktarius 02/11/19 5:37:37 PM 19 | Balrog0 posted... I think you might be misreading the claims of the paper due to your personal biases here, because it is saying that taking no-strings-attached money away from moms on welfare made their kids more violent and more likely to try drugs and to just generally be less pro-social Until we get rid of the "but they'll just buy drugs!!" mentality, well-meaning meddling and social engineering will be the de facto methodology. So fucking what if they spend it on drugs, anyway? If you can't get your shit together with free cash, you aren't going to with foodstamps and government cheese anyway. |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 6:47:33 PM 20 | Questionmarktarius posted... Balrog0 posted...I think you might be misreading the claims of the paper due to your personal biases here, because it is saying that taking no-strings-attached money away from moms on welfare made their kids more violent and more likely to try drugs and to just generally be less pro-social well they also damaged more property and fought more --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| HiddenLurker 02/11/19 6:51:21 PM 21 | HylianFox posted... pretty sure the internet led to rise of anti-social behavior --- Our culture accepts two lies. If you disagree with someone's lifestyle, you must fear/hate them. To love someone you agree with everything they believe/do. |
| Balrog0 02/11/19 6:52:47 PM 22 | but only for boys? --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| King_Hellebuyck 02/11/19 11:00:10 PM 23 | What exactly were the welfare changed in the 90s? --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy |
| ElatedVenusaur 02/11/19 11:40:34 PM 24 | King_Hellebuyck posted... What exactly were the welfare changed in the 90s? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act Even the goddamned name augurs poorly. Essentially, it slashed spending on public assistance, imposing stricter limits on who could receive benefits as well as instituting a life-time cap on benefit payments(2 years). It, in the absolute best case, did nothing to reduce poverty(and very likely contributed to it). Speaking about the topic more broadly(and this is anecdotal, so take it with a hearty shake of salt), but I watched a video about welfare recipients set before and after the implementation of this bill(it was titled something like, "Take It From Me"...) and there was this one lady whose situation was horrible: she had had an apartment with her abusive boyfriend/baby daddy. She left and took the kids(he wanted nothing to do with them). Her kids were taken by CPS because she was homeless, but here's the kicker: she made too much money to qualify for TANF without her kids and didn't qualify for public housing or rental assistance without them. She also couldn't move back in with her parents, because they had a rent-controlled apartment, but wouldn't qualify for benefits if they had a non-dependent living with them. She couldn't get her kids back without a stable housing arrangement. The foster mom did let her see them, so they actually taped the end of one such visit, featuring the older of her two sons screaming for his mom as the foster mom left with him. I legit cried. It was one of the most awful things I've ever seen. Any system that creates situations like that is broken. |
| Questionmarktarius 02/12/19 12:08:11 AM 25 | tl;dr attempts at well-meaning meddling and social engineering to no effect or making things worse In the end, though, the kids are probably much better off in foster care. |
| Balrog0 02/12/19 12:12:56 AM 26 | Questionmarktarius posted...
If you assume the foster care system is well designed and managed. Kinda weird to hold one kind of social engineering to a different standard than another, though. --- But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. |
| Questionmarktarius 02/12/19 12:13:56 AM 27 | Balrog0 posted... Questionmarktarius posted... Well, we don't have orphanages anymore. |
| RamboCell29 02/12/19 12:15:04 AM 28 | Can't feed them don't breed them --- Don't support the destruction of gaming. Don't buy an Xbox One. |
| 1337toothbrush 02/12/19 10:34:26 AM 29 | Yet another reason to adopt UBI. --- |
| LepartialJury 02/13/19 7:21:43 PM 30 | This is why we need abortion. Doesn't help that so many people consider single parents used goods --- Simple-straight-narrow |
| LepartialJury 02/15/19 4:46:28 AM 31 | This is why we need abortion. Doesn't help that so many people consider single parents used goods --- Simple-straight-narrow |
| Europe_Rebirth 02/15/19 4:52:00 AM 32 | The family as an institution has been decimated. Welfare has had a major role in this. It goes all the way back to the welfare programs of the 1960s. Just listen to famous economist Thomas Sowell talk about this, he can explain it far better than I can  --- |
| tennisdude818 02/15/19 6:51:35 AM 33 | Europe_Rebirth posted... The family as an institution has been decimated. Welfare has had a major role in this. It goes all the way back to the welfare programs of the 1960s. Really good video. Paying single women to have kids they cant afford presents a perverse incentive. Liberals understand that general concept when they want to understand it, like when they call for carbon taxes and solar subsidies. --- "I have never understood why it is greed to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money." Thomas Sowell |
| OctaviaMelody69 02/15/19 7:03:51 AM 34 | Well who wanted to be raised on welfare? |
| King_Hellebuyck 02/15/19 9:16:35 AM 35 | Sounds like we need a better welfare system --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy |
| Questionmarktarius 02/15/19 9:38:52 AM 36 | Europe_Rebirth posted... The family as an institution has been decimated. Welfare has had a major role in this. It goes all the way back to the welfare programs of the 1960s. You get a sticker.  |
| BLAKUboy 02/15/19 9:41:50 AM 37 | HylianFox posted... pretty sure the internet led to rise of anti-social behavior --- Aeris dies if she takes more damage than her current HP - Panthera https://signavatar.com/26999_s.png |
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