Poll of the Day > This New Green Deal is a fast track to the United States going third-world

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edededdy
02/09/19 1:58:50 AM
52
i just wish i understood why icoyar stops responding after a while. like does he not learn? does he not care? i want to know why he just gives up
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ClarkDuke
02/09/19 4:24:26 AM
53
Detective__pika posted...
TheWorstPoster posted...
DirtBasedSoap posted...
you know nothing about how the world actually works though, dude


So, what you're saying is, a bill that will try to eliminate air travel, tear down and rebuild practically EVERY major building in the country, eliminate "cow farts", and spending tens, if not hundreds of TRILLIONS of dollars all for something which not only does the Sun does naturally, but it is all for waste due to the pollution caused mainly by China, India, and Russia, simply for virtue signalling?


Oh so youre Alt right. *dismisses post*

He's regularly lambasted for his bashing of welfare programs, programs he's used for over a decade, ok?

edededdy posted...
i just wish i understood why icoyar stops responding after a while. like does he not learn? does he not care? i want to know why he just gives up

Short attention span, or maybe he's oiling his "skin collection", ok?
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Phantom_Nook
02/09/19 5:34:26 AM
54
TC's username is accurate.
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Unbridled9
02/09/19 6:17:44 AM
55
GastroFan posted...
The problem is that someone has to take the lead in promoting 'green' technology. To quote Maggie Thatcher, 'if not the US, then who?' is the right question. If the US can get this to work out right, other countries would follow our example, even if only on a few things. That's better than sitting around and doing nothing while the summers get hotter, wetter and storms get nastier by the year, or there's more frequent cold snaps and blizzards. While we can't go back to being an agrarian society or to where cars didn't exist, we can set an example for the rest of the world as to how to live greener.


Well, see, here's the problem. Let's take CO2 emissions for the sake of argument. While the U.S. is certainly the number 2 in terms of overall production, China is number 1 with India and Russia in number 4 and 5 (the EU taken as a whole being number 3). Iran comes in at number 9 as well. While nations like Germany and Japan are certainly up there in the top 10 and would listen to America if America did something like that, China doesn't give a fuck. In fact it gives so little of a fuck that it's actually started to import things like AIR! Yes, a Spaceballs dumb gag is now REAL! The U.S. does not have good relationships with either nation so it 'taking the lead' would be championed by them... because it means that the U.S. is spending a bunch of money in fields they don't care about. India might listen but they're a nation with some extreme poverty issues as well. Even if the U.S. came up with a solution they may not be able to afford to adopt it.

When you switch to CO2 by capita, while the U.S. is still high five middle eastern nations are higher. Only Australia is higher and would also listen to the U.S. Switch over to per $1,000 GDP and a bunch of nations, many of which do not care about the U.S. or actively hate it, jump above the U.S.

The point here being that it's not as straight forwards as people like to think. The U.S. going green to 'lead', while some nations might follow, a lot of the worst polluters either would ignore or flat out rejoice at the U.S. taking such an initiative while they do nothing to change themselves. For a nation like China there is no need to care about pollution or 'going green' beyond P.R. boosts and Russian's have, historically, probably given the least amount of fucks about things like 'environmental safety, clean up, and pollution' of any nation. Switch it out for plastics or whatever else and I guarentee you it will remain similar. Nations that the U.S. has influence over already largely go green while nations that are indifferent and/or hate the U.S. are among the worst polluters.

So, yea, it's not that simple. I approve of the U.S. going 'green' because it has the resources to easily delve into new technology and does at least somewhat care about such things. Especially since it is still one of the biggest polluters around.
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Unbridled9
02/09/19 6:17:48 AM
56
IMO the problem with America is that it's lead a hedonistic lifestyle for so long that the notion of forgoing things like new cars, smaller meals, and not being so wasteful is extremely difficult for us to grasp and anything we do to actually 'fix' the problem is largely tokenistic and done in ways that impact us at a minimal level. I'm not saying we should be shutting the power down late at night and eating rice cakes or something, but acting smug because you drive a hybrid while you toss plastic cups and garbage out windows, keep every light in the house on at once and the heat cranked up to 85 in the dead of winter while your family chows down on their third 'large' meal today isn't exactly going to 'fix' the environment much either. Change needs to happen on a basic and every-day level and it's going to require giving up luxuries we've all come to enjoy. Nothing's wrong with luxuries, but the attitude many people have taken to them is purely wasteful and destructive and leads to this sort of environmental problem. It's even worse when governments take a stance in which the only thing that matters is the consolidation of power and ensuring that their party stays in power because it brings environmental concerns down to a pure P.R. thing. Done when you want to make your party look good then shoved and hidden away while you focus on wealth and power while pillaging the environment. This isn't 'capitalism', it's sheer apathetic greed unleashed upon the environment.
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I am the gentle hand who heals, the happy smile who shields, and the foot that will kick your ***! - White Mage
Aculo
02/09/19 1:23:20 PM
57
Cacciato posted...
@TheWorstPoster I cant help but notice that you've visited since I've mentioned you. I hope you dont plan to abandon this topic because of your drastic lack of contribution to American society.

In case you're new to ICOYAR's behavior, he will always abandon a thread if proven wrong, ok?

No acknowledgement, no response, just gone. It's been his signature move for years now, ok?
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ninja_lootz
02/09/19 4:26:13 PM
58
Ozmose posted...
Lol, I don't get where people are getting this idea that nuclear is a clean energy. We currently have over 150,000 tons of nuclear waste in the US alone, with no real effective long term plan of what to do with it except to just bury it. The last I heard, they were trying to figure some kind of universal warning sign for whomever should wander across it in another 10,000 years, because they'll likely have no concept of our language. Seriously, we have to treat long term nuclear waste disposal as if we were communicating with aliens.

150k tons of waste is basically nothing relative to other energy sources. Coal for instance produces more than 100 million tons of waste every year. If all of the US's energy came for nuclear the resulting waste would be 10 thousand tons per year.

Obviously it's not 100% green, but no other energy source is either.
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_AdjI_
02/09/19 5:10:41 PM
59
Unbridled9 posted...
Well, see, here's the problem. Let's take CO2 emissions for the sake of argument. While the U.S. is certainly the number 2 in terms of overall production, China is number 1 with India and Russia in number 4 and 5 (the EU taken as a whole being number 3). Iran comes in at number 9 as well.


While true, that doesn't mean the US can't make a significant impact. This attitude of "it won't fix 100% of the problem so we're not going to do anything at all about it" is just silly.

Unbridled9 posted...
China doesn't give a f***.


China's really stepping up their environmental game these days, actually. They're doing more now to clean up their act than the US is, which is just sad.
GastroFan
02/09/19 5:19:20 PM
60
Unbridled9 posted...
GastroFan posted...
The problem is that someone has to take the lead in promoting 'green' technology. To quote Maggie Thatcher, 'if not the US, then who?' is the right question. If the US can get this to work out right, other countries would follow our example, even if only on a few things. That's better than sitting around and doing nothing while the summers get hotter, wetter and storms get nastier by the year, or there's more frequent cold snaps and blizzards. While we can't go back to being an agrarian society or to where cars didn't exist, we can set an example for the rest of the world as to how to live greener.


Well, see, here's the problem. Let's take CO2 emissions for the sake of argument. While the U.S. is certainly the number 2 in terms of overall production, China is number 1 with India and Russia in number 4 and 5 (the EU taken as a whole being number 3). Iran comes in at number 9 as well. While nations like Germany and Japan are certainly up there in the top 10 and would listen to America if America did something like that, China doesn't give a fuck. In fact it gives so little of a fuck that it's actually started to import things like AIR! Yes, a Spaceballs dumb gag is now REAL! The U.S. does not have good relationships with either nation so it 'taking the lead' would be championed by them... because it means that the U.S. is spending a bunch of money in fields they don't care about. India might listen but they're a nation with some extreme poverty issues as well. Even if the U.S. came up with a solution they may not be able to afford to adopt it.

When you switch to CO2 by capita, while the U.S. is still high five middle eastern nations are higher. Only Australia is higher and would also listen to the U.S. Switch over to per $1,000 GDP and a bunch of nations, many of which do not care about the U.S. or actively hate it, jump above the U.S.

The point here being that it's not as straight forwards as people like to think. The U.S. going green to 'lead', while some nations might follow, a lot of the worst polluters either would ignore or flat out rejoice at the U.S. taking such an initiative while they do nothing to change themselves. For a nation like China there is no need to care about pollution or 'going green' beyond P.R. boosts and Russian's have, historically, probably given the least amount of fucks about things like 'environmental safety, clean up, and pollution' of any nation. Switch it out for plastics or whatever else and I guarentee you it will remain similar. Nations that the U.S. has influence over already largely go green while nations that are indifferent and/or hate the U.S. are among the worst polluters.

So, yea, it's not that simple. I approve of the U.S. going 'green' because it has the resources to easily delve into new technology and does at least somewhat care about such things. Especially since it is still one of the biggest polluters around.


China is having problems with air quality due to their extensive use of coal; so they've already started to cut back on its use. Mexico City also has air quality issues; so if we developed say a green alternative to coal and/or fossil fuels that is affordable and attracts their attention, other countries might be willing to follow our example in that regard. We'll never get rid of all usage of fossil fuels, coal and nuclear power but it doesn't mean that we can't work at getting that usage to a minimal, or negligible, level and encourage other nations to do the same.
GanonsSpirit
02/09/19 5:22:12 PM
61
GastroFan posted...
We'll never get rid of all usage of fossil fuels, coal

Forever is a long time to use non-renewable resources.
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_AdjI_
02/09/19 5:23:41 PM
62
GanonsSpirit posted...
GastroFan posted...
We'll never get rid of all usage of fossil fuels, coal

Forever is a long time to use non-renewable resources.


Not if we get their usage down to a sustainable level. Those resources are in fact renewable, just not on a time scale that's at all compatible with current consumption rates.
Unbridled9
02/10/19 6:45:42 AM
63
While true, that doesn't mean the US can't make a significant impact. This attitude of "it won't fix 100% of the problem so we're not going to do anything at all about it" is just silly.

I don't recall saying that. What I recall saying was that the attitude that global warming is purely America's fault and that all that needs to change to fix it is America going green was foolish as well as that the situation was more complicated then a lot of people like to think. If it was as simple as 'everyone drive electric cars' we could probably push through some legislation by the end of the month banning the sale of new non-electric cars and the problem would be solved. It's not.

China's really stepping up their environmental game these days, actually. They're doing more now to clean up their act than the US is, which is just sad.

PHAHAHAHA! No. Not by a looooong shot. China, or more specifically the CCP, cares only about one thing. Power. The only reason that they are cleaning up anything at all is because they can't claim Canada has been part of Chinese territory since ancient times and have to breath the same air as the common folk as a result. China has put forwards suggestions like giant pollution-cleaning robots and flat-out denial instead of putting work and effort into actual, tangible, solutions. Remember that it was under the CCP and their flat-out neglect of the environment that caused these problems in the first place. Basically, China's 'efforts' are happening because Xi still has to drink water instead of honey.

China is having problems with air quality due to their extensive use of coal; so they've already started to cut back on its use. Mexico City also has air quality issues; so if we developed say a green alternative to coal and/or fossil fuels that is affordable and attracts their attention, other countries might be willing to follow our example in that regard. We'll never get rid of all usage of fossil fuels, coal and nuclear power but it doesn't mean that we can't work at getting that usage to a minimal, or negligible, level and encourage other nations to do the same.

Mexico might listen. I doubt China will do much. But I do champion the idea of improving our current green energy sources to help reduce pollution as well as various other policies to help clean up the environment. I just also realize that it's more complicated than 'let's pick up all the trash mmkay'.
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Sarcasthma
02/10/19 7:36:09 AM
64
Aculo posted...
Cacciato posted...
@TheWorstPoster I cant help but notice that you've visited since I've mentioned you. I hope you dont plan to abandon this topic because of your drastic lack of contribution to American society.

In case you're new to ICOYAR's behavior, he will always abandon a thread if proven wrong, ok?

No acknowledgement, no response, just gone. It's been his signature move for years now, ok?

What a coward.
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Muscles
02/10/19 11:16:32 AM
65
LinkPizza posted...
Ozmose posted...
Lol, I don't get where people are getting this idea that nuclear is a clean energy. We currently have over 150,000 tons of nuclear waste in the US alone, with no real effective long term plan of what to do with it except to just bury it. The last I heard, they were trying to figure some kind of universal warning sign for whomever should wander across it in another 10,000 years, because they'll likely have no concept of our language. Seriously, we have to treat long term nuclear waste disposal as if we were communicating with aliens.

You could probably use pictures of dead people... maybe...

There will always be people that know english, people still know latin, and in the future they will have much easier time knowing about the past because of the internet, everything gets said, and everything gets saved
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Muscles
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_AdjI_
02/10/19 11:36:57 AM
66
Unbridled9 posted...
PHAHAHAHA! No. Not by a looooong shot.


Trump is withdrawing the US from the Paris Agreement as soon as legally possible. China's still in on it. So's India, for that matter. They've still go a long way to go, obviously, but they're at least moving forward instead of backwards.

Unbridled9 posted...
China, or more specifically the CCP, cares only about one thing. Power.


How does that differ from any other major global power?

Muscles posted...
There will always be people that know english, people still know latin


Do you know what English looked like 10,000 years ago? It didn't. Same with Latin. The Latin people still know is less than 2000 years old, and even then is spoken by only a small handful of people that have specifically studied it. This is what English looked like just 1000 years ago:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Beowulf_Cotton_MS_Vitellius_A_XV_f._132r.jpg

That's not even recognizable as the modern language, and not just because the page is worn. There's no reason to believe that today's English will be recognizable in 10,000 years either, even if English is still ostensibly a living, widespread language.

Now, that said, worrying that people 10,000 years from now won't be able to read a warning sign we write today is ignoring the fact that somebody's going to be reading those signs at least every few years between now and then. It's not going to (at least, it shouldn't) be a matter of burying the stuff and then some hapless archeologist stumbling upon it 10,000 years later. These disposal sites can be administered, and that administration can periodically consider if the signage is still adequate to communicate the risk in the contemporary language. Realistically, the signage itself is going to wear out to the point of illegibility well before the language evolves beyond being able to comprehend it, so it should be kept sufficiently up to date to avoid poisoning our great^576 grandchildren.
CyborgSage00x0
02/10/19 2:56:40 PM
67
ParanoidObsessive posted...
Oops_All_Berrys posted...
The Earth is dying you fuckwad

The Earth will be perfectly fine no matter what humans do to it.

Neither of these these are true. Earth isn't dying in terms of "Will-it-look-like-Mars-and-all-life-will-perish-on-Earth" (at least for another 4-5B years) and humans TRYING to do that probably couldn't achieve that feat.

That said, it's not perfectly fine, either. Flora and fauna are being wiped out at an astonishing rate, the cause of which, and the result of which will make human life more miserable all around, is entirely man-made.
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LinkPizza
02/10/19 3:35:09 PM
68
Also, if were talking about scars, the Eartj has been pretty much scarred from the beginning, depending on what you mean by scarred and perfectly fine...
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Unbridled9
02/10/19 7:19:19 PM
69
Trump is withdrawing the US from the Paris Agreement as soon as legally possible. China's still in on it. So's India, for that matter. They've still go a long way to go, obviously, but they're at least moving forward instead of backwards.

China doesn't listen to the Paris Agreement anyways. Why do you think they have such a bad pollution problem that is *not* improving?

How does that differ from any other major global power?

The CCP is a political party which is accountable to no-one. Their rule is effectively absolute and they desire to keep it that way. As such they focus on hunting down anyone who could threaten that power in any way, shape, or form to 're-educate' them for 'crimes' as innocent as 'being religious'. The only time it would do something like, say, remove a corrupt official is when said official has their corruption exposed and it could threaten to expose others. But so long as that's not helping the CCP has only focused on increasing it's grip on absolute power as well as wielding said power to lock down the populace and increase the wealth and standing of it's political elite. The only reason they care about problems like pollution is because they have to breath the same air and want to look good on the world stage.

Imagine if Trump agreed to 'cut CO2 emissions' but only did so to impress the Queen of England and did so by banning most cars from Washington D.C. before broadcasting over the air how his efforts have made the world greener and reduced the amount of cars... all while he drives around a massive gas guzzler and does absolutely nothing to try and cut back on his CO2 emissions. That's what the CCP is like.


Do you know what English looked like 10,000 years ago? It didn't. Same with Latin. The Latin people still know is less than 2000 years old, and even then is spoken by only a small handful of people that have specifically studied it. This is what English looked like just 1000 years ago:


Fun fact; the reason we see so many scientific names of things like animals written in Latin is specifically because it's a dead language that no one speaks anymore. As such the meanings of the words never change with time. Also, considering that I'm pretty sure that English didn't exist in any form in 8,000 B.C. Same with Latin.
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I am the gentle hand who heals, the happy smile who shields, and the foot that will kick your ***! - White Mage
ClarkDuke
02/11/19 3:35:30 AM
70
Muscles posted...
LinkPizza posted...
Ozmose posted...
Lol, I don't get where people are getting this idea that nuclear is a clean energy. We currently have over 150,000 tons of nuclear waste in the US alone, with no real effective long term plan of what to do with it except to just bury it. The last I heard, they were trying to figure some kind of universal warning sign for whomever should wander across it in another 10,000 years, because they'll likely have no concept of our language. Seriously, we have to treat long term nuclear waste disposal as if we were communicating with aliens.

You could probably use pictures of dead people... maybe...

There will always be people that know english, people still know latin, and in the future they will have much easier time knowing about the past because of the internet, everything gets said, and everything gets saved

Plummeting insect numbers threaten collapse of nature https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/10/plummeting-insect-numbers-threaten-collapse-of-nature?

Read, please, ok?
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darkknight109
02/11/19 12:42:59 PM
71
Unbridled9 posted...
China doesn't listen to the Paris Agreement anyways. Why do you think they have such a bad pollution problem that is *not* improving?

In other news, China has reached its 2020 target of carbon intensity - a 46% drop over 2005 levels - three years early.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-climatechange-carbon/china-meets-2020-carbon-target-ahead-of-schedule-xinhua-idUSKBN1H312U

Other analyses suggest China's carbon emissions may have peaked altogether:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-02/china-s-carbon-emissions-may-have-peaked-as-climate-policy-bites

Not saying that China is perfect by any means, but they're actually addressing the problem on a national level, which is more than I can say about the US at the moment (and that's actually tremendously pathetic, when you think about it).

Unbridled9 posted...
Fun fact; the reason we see so many scientific names of things like animals written in Latin is specifically because it's a dead language that no one speaks anymore.

No, the reason we see so much Latin is because after the 11th century Norman invasion of England, English was considered the uncouth language of the peasantry - most of the nobility and upper classes, which included nearly all of the educated population, spoke either French or Latin. Hence, a lot of English scientists opted to name their terms in Latin, as opposed to English, and we just decided to keep going with it even after the language died out, for some dumb reason.

You can see this if you look at scientific terms in languages other than English. And I'm not even talking "high science" here - in English, what we would call an "optometrist" or "cardiologist" most languages would just call "eye doctor" or "heart doctor" respectively, which is so much simpler. Same thing with something like animals - where we stick things like "equine" or "canine" everywhere, most languages just use their words for "horse" or "dog' to not be so confusing.
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jramirez23
02/11/19 12:53:10 PM
72
Do you think that climate change itself can stop climate change? Like if it messes up our civilizations' ability to pollute and this ends up reversing some of the changes we've seen in the ocean, in the air, etc.?
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Beveren_Rabbit
02/11/19 1:37:24 PM
73
We never had an ice age with a bunch of nuclear waste and cities laying around before
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adjl
02/11/19 4:17:17 PM
74
darkknight109 posted...
You can see this if you look at scientific terms in languages other than English. And I'm not even talking "high science" here - in English, what we would call an "optometrist" or "cardiologist" most languages would just call "eye doctor" or "heart doctor" respectively, which is so much simpler. Same thing with something like animals - where we stick things like "equine" or "canine" everywhere, most languages just use their words for "horse" or "dog' to not be so confusing.


To be fair, a lot of those languages have more direct Latin derivatives in them than English does.
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darkknight109
02/11/19 5:00:14 PM
75
adjl posted...
To be fair, a lot of those languages have more direct Latin derivatives in them than English does.

I'm not even talking other Latin-based languages here - languages with no links to Latin follow this trend as well, because why wouldn't they?

In Japanese, for instance, your heart is your shinzou. How would you say "cardiac"? Shinzou-no (with the "no" being a marker of possession). Glasses are megane and an optician is a megane-ya (roughly "glasses store" or "glasses provider").
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HelIWithoutSin
02/13/19 10:12:08 PM
76
Points 9 & 10 are deeply concerning. What do you propose we do about them TC?
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CacciatoPart3
02/13/19 10:14:17 PM
77
Cacciato posted...
Cacciato posted...
Cacciato posted...
TheWorstPoster posted...
http://thefederalist.com/2019/02/07/ten-most-insane-requirements-green-new-deal/

Do you realize the irony in you posting that, due to point #9?

@TheWorstPoster please provide your opinion on the 9th part that I mentioned.

@TheWorstPoster I cant help but notice that you've visited since I've mentioned you. I hope you dont plan to abandon this topic because of your drastic lack of contribution to American society. Hopefully you can comment on the below portion of the article you provided:
Free money. The GND aims to provide, and I am not making this up, economic security for all who are unable or unwilling to work. Just to reiterate: if youre unwilling to work, the rest of us will have your back.


Obviously the bolded portion is my contribution. I'm just wondering how you, an uneducated and unemployed American citizen that leeches off the government he criticizes, can personally justify the attack against the program that willingly lives off of?

@TheWorstPoster NATHAN! Were curious!
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