Board 8 > Umineko Playthrough Topic Part 3

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02/11/19 1:07:24 PM
page 2:

Dels posted...
does this chick ever open her eyes

i'm sorry i asked
02/11/19 3:33:14 PM
02/12/19 6:33:58 AM
daily bump
02/13/19 9:42:26 AM
Raka_Putra posted...
Yeah, I personally agree with that view.

Also looking forward to your end-of-episode assessments. I predict we'll have quite a lot of shuffling around (compared to post-EP2 anyway).

You should also consider putting the magical people on the ranking.

I made my list. I'll post it later. Not sure if I'm ready to keep playing. Not much major shuffling, I'm not sure what gave the impression there might be? But there's a few shifts up and down that, despite being only a couple spots, are significant.
02/14/19 6:35:46 AM
Good morning
02/14/19 11:04:26 PM
Fuhlt nicht durch dich Sarastro Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr-- eeeeeeeeeeeeeeehr.
02/15/19 7:57:47 AM
Good morning!

Maybe I'll finally be ready to dive back in over the weekend.
02/16/19 1:21:08 AM
Fuhlt nicht durch dich Sarastro Todesschmerzen,
So bist du meine Tochter nimmermehr-- eeeeeeeeeeeeeeehr.
02/16/19 12:35:43 PM
Okay. I don't feel particularly great about adding the magical characters to the ranking. For a lot of them, they've simply been plot characters without any real development, just existing to further the magical scenes dialogue and ideas without really having their own arc. Or they are so minor that it's hard to rank them compared to larger characters.

But I went ahead and added them, because why not. But it's very much like comparing apples to oranges in some cases.

I wasn't sure how to judge when a character was "important enough" to get added, so the only fair thing was to decide: Every character with an entry on the bios page by the end of the chapter gets added.
02/16/19 12:44:36 PM
Disclaimer: Characters moved up or down X spots number represents how much they moved compared to those they were previously ranked against (i.e. the original 18, not the new 28)
02/16/19 12:58:16 PM
Character Rankings (Post Chapter 3)

1) Kyrie (Up 1 spot)
I finally gave in and gave Kyrie the top spot like she deserves for being a badass mystery-solving goddess. It was inevitable, really.

2) Eva (Up 2 spots)
I guess I'm pretty easily swayed by recency bias, but what can I say, chapter 3 was her "centric" chapter and I'm a sucker for character development, particularly from the "I'm a bitch but secretly vulnerable" character type.

3) Natsuhi (Down 2 spots)
Drops by default due to less relevance. Still a sweet innocent cinnamon roll.

4) Hideyoshi (Up 1 spot)
I still don't know why I like but him he's nice.

5) Rosa (Down 2 spots)
Drops by default since others went up. She's definitely become more interesting once her more assertive side showed up though. She's sort of bland but still strangely compelling.

6) Beatrice (New Entry)
Yeah, I don't know where to rank Beatrice. I mean, where do you even begin? She is such an enigma. That said, she gets a high spot because her design is lovely and her personality is always compelling. I don't know how to rank pouty-Beatrice from her redemption arc. She gets pouty in the scenes with Lamda/Bern too and it's still cute, so I don't think that part of her personality was entirely fake. It's not like I can extol the virtue's of Beatrice's character here, she's still just pure evil 75% of the time with no redeeming factors and apparently (?) no depth (?) beyond that, but whatever.

7) Battler (No change)
No comment. Still not a character I'd particularly like but as long as he's protagonist-y and says smart things and shares my thoughts, he's cool with me.

8) Rudolf (Up 2 spots)
Rudolf takes his well-deserved boost for having a badass fight scene. What else can I say?

9) Gohda (Up 3 spots)
This was as high up as I could possibly put Gohda despite the fact that he still hasn't done anything. But you know what, I wouldn't have it any other way. Hope he continues to be amusingly useless.

10) Ange (New Entry)
If you were wondering "How much does a character have to do to enter the top half of rankings in this game?", the answer is apparently: "Not much" Her design is really nice and she immediately seems to have depth and complexity, and she seems smart, mature, not annoying, and not gimmicky. And that's all it takes. I'm down for it.

11) Kumasawa (Up 1 spot)
She just sort of stumbles around in the middle of the list by default. Still likable. Still hasn't done anything.

12) Ronove (New Entry)
This serves as basically a dividing line, where everyone above him is someone I clearly like, and everyone below him is someone I don't care about much either way. Ronove is a good dividing line because I like him but I have no reason to care about him. There's no development here, but he's cool.

13) Krauss (Up 4 spots)
Krauss apparently... did what he needed to do to finally rise some spots, which was: a) Survive and b) Not be totally boring. Still an asshole but a slightly more interesting one, barely.

14) Bernkastel (New Entry)
Forms the dividing line along with Ronove, basically. Same thing: She seems vaguely likable, but has no real development. So, whatever.
02/16/19 1:11:01 PM
Character Rankings Continued

15) Shannon (Down 4 spots)
I ranked Shannon highly after chapter 2 since she was one of the main focuses and recency bias. She drops now that that's over. I don't actively dislike her "growth arc" the way I do with the others, I can acknowledge it is fair stuff, but I don't care too much. She's alright.

16) Maria (No change)
I dunno. Like I said, I've gotten more used to her and she's sort of funny/cute.

17) Evatrice (New entry)
Where do you rank a character who has good design and works well as a villain, but that you don't actually care about or think is particularly interesting beyond that? I liked her determination when she was just a kid. Then she became a witch and now she's just pure evil. But whatever. Like the others, this is another sort of "dividing line" where everyone above it is someone with positives and everyone below her is someone I don't like.

18) Kanon (Up 4 spots)
Kanon goes up a bit because he has magically transcended his previous whininess, as if his development from chapter 2 somehow stuck with him into chapter 3 even though he has no memory of it. He's still dumb though.

19) Kinzo (Down 1 spot)
I guess the fact that his chapter focused on his sexism and then he died means he wasn't gonna fare very well. He's still interesting-ish but unlikable and unrelateable really.

20) Jessica (No change)
She didn't do anything this chapter, until the very end, but none of it changes how I feel about her.

21) Genji (Down 8 spots)
Apparently I was really not liking Genji when I did these rankings. I think I just finally started to reflect on how much of a pushover he is. I'm getting a bit tired of the "I'm just furniture, so if you want to murder all my friends and sacrifice me, go ahead. I don't care if it's painful. Drive a stake into me, it's my job, I'll just bleed out and enjoy it" shit. I did feel bad when he helped kill Shannon and Kanon peacefully, but after thinking about it, he's just sort of pathetic. Grow a spine, dude. Even in chapter 2's ending he just stands by as goat demons torture all his friends to death. I get it, you're loyal, but come on. Kanon and Shannon have figured it out. Now it's your turn.

22) Virgilia (New Entry)
What's there to say? She's not very interesting, her personality is to just be sort of serene and nice. And then it was all fake and she's evil I guess. Whatever.

23) George (Down 1 spot)
George sux

24) Nanjo (No change)
Managed to survive the entire chapter and still not do a single thing.

25) Lambdadelta (New Entry)
Evil loli witch with no development beyond that she's cruel. Whatever. I guess some people like this character type Not my thing.

26) Chiester Sisters (New Entry)
Cliche anime soldier bunnies. One is dominant and one submissive. I'm sure there's a word for it. Moe or something. Idk. Don't care.

27) All of the Goats (New Entry)
They have a slot on the character bios page, so as per the new rules, they make the list. Baa.

28) Seven Sisters of Purgatory (New Entry)
I get insanely bored every time these characters on screen. I don't give a shit about their bickering or their sexual innuendos. They talk waaaay too much and I am never going to care about them.
02/16/19 1:12:30 PM
02/16/19 1:22:23 PM
Mastermind Likelihood Thoughts

Going off the list I had last time...

George and Hideyoshi still have good chance, but I have to admit George's is going down after that scene of reviving Shannon. That would be weird if it was fake. Even I have to admit his emotions seem genuine... Hideyoshi's treatment of Eva makes him seem like a genuinely good person who really does want to help her become a better person. But apparently he let her sneak out of her room to go murder people???? I'm still a bit confused on this. There's gotta be more to it.

Kumasawa and Nanjo have continued to do nothing, so their chances are... like, it's not a very compelling choice for either of them to be the mastermind at this point, but whatever, it's not ruled out.

Krauss, like I said, by surviving this long (because no one actually dies in this story, all 18 are always in play) has increasing chances because it's a potential way to make his character satisfying ultimately. He got a bit of development though so we'll see if they keep doing that.

Eva's likelihood has gone way down. If she really is the murderer here, then it doesn't make sense to be the mastermind, and the ??? future chapter implies she likely wasn't some genius, since the events haunt her.

Gohda still could be I guess but lol whatever.

Battler seems pretty unlikely. Not gonna think too hard about the possibility of some insane twist atm.

Rudolf and Kyrie seem very, very unlikely after their furthered development this chapter. Their relationship plot really doesn't seem like the sort of thing that's leading into the mastermind's motivations.

No new comments on Shannon, Kanon, Jessica. They have character arcs that have nothing to do with being the mastermind. Kinzo and Genji still don't make sense, though Genji's chance has gone slightly up.

Natsuhi, Maria, and Rosa all still ruled out because they couldn't hide something like that from us.
02/16/19 1:29:29 PM
I dunno, I don't wanna get caught ruling someone out when I shouldn't. I still think Shannon has a chance, honestly. Her wisdom about life and love really came very quickly. It's a bit suspicious. Her character arc could somehow play into a motive for being the mastermind.
02/16/19 3:27:18 PM
Beginning chapter 4.

Will probably multitask and/or play on and off throughout the day, unless I get super drawn in. We'll see.
02/16/19 3:32:42 PM
I guess I will say, Ange's existence does offer the possibility of Battler being the mastermind, since she could take over as protagonist. I'm not sure how that'd work, but it's not out of the question.
02/16/19 3:34:02 PM
Ange wants to solve the mystery of what happened on the day of the incident. If this was Answer Arcs, I'd say "you go girl!", but she's got at least one chapter of abject failure before we can get there. Sorry Ange.
02/16/19 3:36:49 PM
Oh, coooooooool!

I got a new opening for episode 4!

Is this because I had selected the "no spoilery openings" option from the patch?

If I hadn't selected that, would this opening have shown for all 4 episodes?! Because that really is spoilery, it shows all the characters!

This one is so much cooler though, it's gotten me kind of hyped.
02/16/19 3:40:42 PM
Are we just doing a repeat of chapter 3...? Beatrice feels bad for lying to Battler... so now she's sad about it and wants to make him feel better?

Isn't that exactly what we already did, and it was fake?

So does Beatrice actually have empathy and care about Battler?

Or not...?

I'm still not sure how much of chapter 3 was real and how much was fake. That's not the denial speaking, it's just we're still seeing some of Beatrice's friendlier character traits even after chapter 3 ended, and Ronove is sort of reinforcing the idea that Beatrice really is sort of childish and naive herself.
02/16/19 3:49:39 PM
Ange accuses Battler for "drinking tea and chatting with a witch for all eternity" while saying he's not taking it seriously.

I do note the use of "eternity" here.

Is it hyberbole?

Because it's only been 3 episodes, and Battler was only here at the tea party for 2 and a half of them.

I still think the best place to insert a twist would be with the timelines of the island and the tea party. Are they really happening in sync? Is it really as simple as Battler from episode 1 ending up at the tea party right when episode 1 ends, and him just being here for a couple of days?

Maybe it really has been an eternity, and we only think it's been a few days. Does the concept of time even exist here, really?
02/16/19 3:53:28 PM
nothing has made me suspend my disbelief more than the idea that ange would even know what a "menger sponge" is and be able to cite it in a random conversation

i mean what even
02/16/19 3:59:05 PM
For some reason, Maria's profile is in the magical section already.
02/16/19 4:01:11 PM
ANGE's profile says "To understand witches, and yet deny them. Only this contradictory power gives her the blade with which to fell witches."

This feels sort of related to what I was saying about how... the magical stuff clearly does 'exist'. We're far past the point of me being able to say "it's all fake, the narrator is lying", because it's... well, it's nearly 50% of the game at this point, maybe even more.

So clearly it is real. Witches do 'exist'. In some way. Even if Beatrice is bad, there are good witches who are on our side.

And yet we still need to win by denying them.

It's a contradiction at this point, and the game seems to understand that. This profile is telling me that my thoughts are all going according to plan.
02/16/19 4:18:31 PM
Like, in retrospect you can say "Beatrice is a witch, of course she wouldn't have been helping Battler win when his goal is to deny witches, and therefore erase them"

But that's what Bernkastel is doing

So ?????????????
02/16/19 4:33:19 PM



nice one, localizers.

i mean, you did your best.
02/16/19 5:06:11 PM
well i never would've thought this chapter was going to show us more maria/rosa flashbacks via future-ange talking to maria's ghost

but i've been trained to expect the unexpected so i suppose it's not too weird
02/16/19 5:12:50 PM
young Maria's flashback gets this music which is a more childish-happy mash up of the main piano theme AND the "golden room" theme
02/16/19 5:13:13 PM
i really am impressed that the new music tracks have just never stopped coming
02/16/19 5:18:55 PM
1) Sakutaro (New Entry)
02/16/19 5:23:03 PM
We have some new themes coming up this chapter.

Ange talks about how bullies always exist, and humanity should be wiped out.

So we're maybe going to have a theme of debating if humanity is good or bad?

Maria talks about how the legend says that if one kid becomes the "bullied one", the others can be spared. So she's okay with being bullied since it saves others. Self-sacrifice. Unselfishness. And also, practicality?

If an action hurts 1 person to save 39 others, is it morally okay? The greater good. Etc.
02/16/19 5:25:45 PM
It also furthers our theme of how society always needs to create tiers between people, and have some higher than others. Even in a place where everyone is supposed to be "high tier", it still happens.
02/16/19 5:28:42 PM
Sakutaro being a stuffed animal and yet having a personality and being loved and it being "okay" for Maria to care about him

Is the same as how all the witches are totally fake, fictional, but maybe it's okay to care about them anyway?
02/16/19 5:45:11 PM
I think something this game is trying to say is that coming up with fantasies is what makes life worthwhile, and it's what makes us human

If you see all the magical stuff as a sort of layer on top of "normal life", it's kind of about how we humans find ways to make the mundane seem magical. We take basic things and we make stories out of them, we add rules, we come up with entire systems of how things work.

That's what Kinzo spent his life doing by pretending his magic was real. But it was a fantasy. But is that so bad?
02/16/19 5:53:45 PM
Dels posted...
nothing has made me suspend my disbelief more than the idea that ange would even know what a "menger sponge" is and be able to cite it in a random conversation

i mean what even

I find menger sponges really appealing for some reason. I dunno >_>
JeffRaze, for all your random spellcasting needs
02/16/19 6:07:42 PM
i refuse to believe anyone has even heard of the term "menger sponge" before playing this game
02/16/19 6:12:16 PM
In other words:

If something is real to you, then it's real.

George fell in love with you because you smashed a mirror.


Can this apply to our own thoughts?

"I am bullied because that way, everyone else can be spared"
"I am bullied because I am weak and deserve it"

You choose which to believe and shape your own reality.

02/16/19 6:13:24 PM
Ultimately, this game comes down to more than just "Witches are fake" or "Witches are real".

Chapter 3 wasn't quite getting us there like I thought, but I still believe what I said is true: The ultimate ending should not be to deny all witches, or to accept them as fully real. Like Ange's bio says, it is a contradiction. This game's ending will account for that.
02/16/19 6:23:05 PM
oh, we have another new character.

silly me, i thought that opening meant we'd seen them all.
02/16/19 6:25:39 PM
geesh, we're actually following ange after the point where she jumps off the roof?

how could this have any relevance to the plot????????
02/16/19 6:54:52 PM
New dude says that Eva didn't kill everyone, because she wouldn't kill her family

Well, I agree with him.

But we saw Eva confess and murder Battler.

Or did we?

I still don't know what to think of it.
02/16/19 6:57:42 PM

Lots of animes or games take place in weird universes where the characters are all strangely obsessed with certain concepts.

Like Layton games take place in a world where everyone loves puzzles.

And Yu-gi-oh takes place in a world where everyone cares about a children's card game.

Well, Umineko takes place in a world where everyone is obsessed with Devil's Proofs.
02/16/19 6:59:05 PM
So now it's actually directly relevant to the game if I believe that Eva actually cared about George or not.
02/16/19 7:01:15 PM
New dude is basically getting at the idea that humans have emotional reactions and then come up with logic to support them, rather than the other way around.

I've basically observed this to be true ever since I first had it explained to me, so it's interesting that the game is going here.

Something about different perspectives of the same situation leading to different truths based on whose side you are on. Hm.
02/16/19 7:08:13 PM
"...I hate Aunt Eva, so I'll probably deny any information beneficial to her..and interpret any neutral information in a negative way."

Are you trying to say that this is what I do with George?!

I feel attacked.
02/16/19 7:08:56 PM
"...In other words, the truth is already decided inside me.
So just what in the world is this 'truth' that I'm still searching for, unsatisfied...?"

got it, i'll just trust that i'm right about george being evil and stop wasting my time thinking about anything else
02/16/19 7:10:45 PM
"After all, no matter what kind of new information or proof you find, Ange-chan, it won't change your stance that Eva-san is the culprit, right? So it's pointless to investigate anything more. Because the truth inside of you is already decided."

lmao shit this guy gets it.

what truths have i been missing because i've just assumed it's george...?!

(the answer is i haven't really been letting my suspicion of george sway me that much, so i'm just being overdramatic here)
02/16/19 7:17:00 PM
for some reason, in the old artstyle, the new dude's sprite is just a picture instead

02/16/19 7:19:18 PM
so ange is going to be investigating the crime 12 years later, in parallel to us experiencing (another version of) it in the past.

this is real ange, not the totally fake witch one at the tea party.

they are officially seperate.

does this mean ange was the one who was... god, i don't even remember what it was anymore, reading some sort of letter at the end of chapter 1?
02/16/19 7:19:54 PM
i mean, this future world is a direct consequence of the end of episode 3

but that was just one parallel world. what we witness in episode 4 likely won't be a "fragment" where eva is the sole survivor again, so these are two different timelines
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