Current Events > Border Patrol makes case for expanding border barrier.

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GregShmedley
01/11/19 1:35:41 PM
1
Senior Border Patrol officials are taking up President Trump's call for more miles of border barrier, pushing back against congressional Democrats who say additional fencing is unnecessary.

During a ride-along with the Border Patrol on Wednesday in its San Diego sector, agents made it clear that the fence deters illegal crossers.

"I started in the San Diego sector in 1992 and it didn't matter how many agents we lined up," said Chief Patrol Agent Rodney Scott. "We could not make a measurable impact on the flow [of undocumented immigrants] across the border. It wasn't until we installed barriers along the border that gave us the upper hand that we started to get control."

Forty-six of the 60 miles of border in the San Diego sector are currently protected by some type of barrier. Scott says in the places where he has two levels of fencing he achieves 90 percent operational control.

Scott was interviewed in a clearing at the base of the San Ysidro Mountains, a rugged sierra in southern San Diego County. For years, agents have considered the harsh terrain here to be a natural deterrent to illegal crossers. It is mainly Bureau of Land Management land with rocky inclines covered in cactus and juniper.

Even though the traffic here is at relatively low levels, the San Diego sector is now seeking 5 miles of additional fencing across this mountainous ground to stop the illegal movement of humans and drugs.

"Every night people come through this canyon," said Supervisory Border Patrol Agent Michael Scappechio. "If we put in a border barrier, we can utilize the [agent] manpower elsewhere."

He added that a steel fence is a smarter border defense than having agents in ATVs or on foot chasing people crossing illegally through remote and rocky ravines, which is dangerous for the pursuer and the pursued.


https://www.npr.org/2019/01/11/684037990/border-patrol-makes-its-case-for-an-expanded-border-barrier

Have we even heard much from BP about this? Trump screams one thing, opposers say another. But how vocal have those that are actually working the border been about this and what is the general consensus?

If the Border Patrol said that additional barriers and updating existing infrastructure was crucial and would actually be beneficial, would you support it?
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RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 1:47:04 PM
2
The Border Patrol are agents of the state. Like any public sector employee, if they feel they can gain something for their own benefit that will provide them more to work with (regardless if the work is even needed) at the expense of the private sector taxpayer, they will preach about how much they need insert item here. Theyre not concerned with actually solving the problem, just making sure theyll have money thrown at them to continue their job dependent on taxpayer funding and ignore why there is a demand for illegal immigration into the United States in the first place.
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Funbazooka
01/11/19 1:51:32 PM
3
RoadsterUFO posted...
The Border Patrol are agents of the state. Like any public sector employee, if they feel they can gain something for their own benefit that will provide them more to work with (regardless if the work is even needed) at the expense of the private sector taxpayer, they will preach about how much they need insert item here. Theyre not concerned with actually solving the problem, just making sure theyll have money thrown at them to continue their job dependent on taxpayer funding and ignore why there is a demand for illegal immigration into the United States in the first place.

Ooof
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MAGA
King_Hutton
01/11/19 1:55:05 PM
4
So youre saying we need basic fences and not expensive walls

That sounds fine
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 1:55:31 PM
5
RoadsterUFO posted...
The Border Patrol are agents of the state. Like any public sector employee, if they feel they can gain something for their own benefit that will provide them more to work with (regardless if the work is even needed) at the expense of the private sector taxpayer, they will preach about how much they need insert item here.


Where should the line be drawn if this is the case? And isnt one of the main reasons behind combating illegal immigration is the burden of Joe and Jane Taxpayer as it is? Yes, illegal immigrants do pay taxes but last I checked, those dont offset the costs of states and local taxes being allocated to house or support them.

RoadsterUFO posted...
Theyre not concerned with actually solving the problem, just making sure theyll have money thrown at them to continue their job dependent on taxpayer funding and ignore why there is a demand for illegal immigration into the United States in the first place.


One could argue that the decrease in illegal immigration would result in a cut to personnel as well as less use of traditional tools.

Also, Im confused by the last part. What do you mean by a demand for illegal immigration?
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 1:57:10 PM
6
King_Hutton posted...
So youre saying we need basic fences and not expensive walls

That sounds fine


Do we consider the steel barrier thats being proposed as a fence or a wall?
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eston
01/11/19 1:59:54 PM
7
Sounds like he's explaining why we dont need an additional $30B wall. The current system has been reducing the number of illegal border crossings steadily for the past 15 years
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King_Hutton
01/11/19 2:00:17 PM
8
GregShmedley posted...
RoadsterUFO posted...
The Border Patrol are agents of the state. Like any public sector employee, if they feel they can gain something for their own benefit that will provide them more to work with (regardless if the work is even needed) at the expense of the private sector taxpayer, they will preach about how much they need insert item here.


Where should the line be drawn if this is the case? And isnt one of the main reasons behind combating illegal immigration is the burden of Joe and Jane Taxpayer as it is? Yes, illegal immigrants do pay taxes but last I checked, those dont offset the costs of states and local taxes being allocated to house or support them.

[citation needed]

GregShmedley posted...
King_Hutton posted...
So youre saying we need basic fences and not expensive walls

That sounds fine


Do we consider the steel barrier thats being proposed as a fence or a wall?

Do you think what is being proposed is the same as what is currently on the San Diego border?
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RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 2:06:15 PM
9
Theres a demand for illegal immigration into this country for a few reasons: The federal welfare state, the war on drugs, employment opportunities.

With the welfare state in tact, theres a demand for people from other countries to come into the United States and utilize it. Be it healthcare services (you cant deny service!), a parent having their kid in public school, etc. If you could simply make it so there was a 100% denial of entitments to illegal status immigrants this would go a long way. Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.

The war on drugs creates a demand for drugs to travel into the United States. Theres a demand for drugs from a number of American residents, and a supply will be provided from other countries as there is a demand for it and money to be made. End the war on drugs, abolish existing federal drug laws, and leave drug policy to the states and youll see leaps of improvement.

Another demand for illegal immigration is employment. It is in a way admirable that many immigrants will leave their old country and come here illegally because there was something better offered to them. Working min wage or under the table for below min wage to pick crops and do other labor American citizens dont want to do is beneficial to everyone. Ex: The farmer gets the cheap labor, the immigrant gets more money than they wouldve otherwise gotten in their home country, and the consumer gets lower priced goods (Ex: the lettuce for our delicious hamburgers). The American resident also gets better employment opportunities as the bottom of the barrel labor is being done by the immigrant.

Our immigration system should be based on Ellis Island protocol. A background check, a disease check, and a complete denial of welfare benefits/abolition of the federal welfare state.
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Up the hammers & down the nails! https://rateyourmusic.com/~RoadsterUFO
monkmith
01/11/19 2:15:33 PM
10
RoadsterUFO posted...
Theres a demand for illegal immigration into this country for a few reasons: The federal welfare state, the war on drugs, employment opportunities.

With the welfare state in tact, theres a demand for people from other countries to come into the United States and utilize it. Be it healthcare services (you cant deny service!), a parent having their kid in public school, etc. If you could simply make it so there was a 100% denial of entitments to illegal status immigrants this would go a long way. Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.

The war on drugs creates a demand for drugs to travel into the United States. Theres a demand for drugs from a number of American residents, and a supply will be provided from other countries as there is a demand for it and money to be made. End the war on drugs, abolish existing federal drug laws, and leave drug policy to the states and youll see leaps of improvement.

Another demand for illegal immigration is employment. It is in a way admirable that many immigrants will leave their old country and come here illegally because there was something better offered to them. Working min wage or under the table for below min wage to pick crops and do other labor American citizens dont want to do is beneficial to everyone. Ex: The farmer gets the cheap labor, the immigrant gets more money than they wouldve otherwise gotten in their home country, and the consumer gets lower priced goods (Ex: the lettuce for our delicious hamburgers). The American resident also gets better employment opportunities as the bottom of the barrel labor is being done by the immigrant.

Our immigration system should be based on Ellis Island protocol. A background check, a disease check, and a complete denial of welfare benefits.

welfare state welfare state welfare state, you realize you cant get any of the welfare state benefits without legal residence and a social security number right?
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 2:18:20 PM
11
King_Hutton posted...
[citation needed


I read it a long time ago so this is the best I could find.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

A 2007 review of the academic literature by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office found that "over the past two decades, most efforts to estimate the fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrantsboth legal and unauthorizedexceed the cost of the services they use." While the overall fiscal impact on the US is beneficial, unauthorized immigrants have an adverse impact on the budgets of state and local governments. While cautioning that the reports are not a suitable basis for developing an aggregate national effect across all states, they concluded that:[8]

"The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants"; and
"Federal aid programs offer resources to state and local governments that provide services to unauthorized immigrants, but those funds do not fully cover the costs incurred by those governments."


Yes, I recognize it is from twelve years ago and am totally willing to accept Im incorrect if this is no longer the case.

King_Hutton posted...
Do you think what is being proposed is the same as what is currently on the San Diego border?


No, but what is being proposed is more inline with being a strong fence than it is a wall.
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RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 2:19:34 PM
12
monkmith posted...
RoadsterUFO posted...
Theres a demand for illegal immigration into this country for a few reasons: The federal welfare state, the war on drugs, employment opportunities.

With the welfare state in tact, theres a demand for people from other countries to come into the United States and utilize it. Be it healthcare services (you cant deny service!), a parent having their kid in public school, etc. If you could simply make it so there was a 100% denial of entitments to illegal status immigrants this would go a long way. Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.

The war on drugs creates a demand for drugs to travel into the United States. Theres a demand for drugs from a number of American residents, and a supply will be provided from other countries as there is a demand for it and money to be made. End the war on drugs, abolish existing federal drug laws, and leave drug policy to the states and youll see leaps of improvement.

Another demand for illegal immigration is employment. It is in a way admirable that many immigrants will leave their old country and come here illegally because there was something better offered to them. Working min wage or under the table for below min wage to pick crops and do other labor American citizens dont want to do is beneficial to everyone. Ex: The farmer gets the cheap labor, the immigrant gets more money than they wouldve otherwise gotten in their home country, and the consumer gets lower priced goods (Ex: the lettuce for our delicious hamburgers). The American resident also gets better employment opportunities as the bottom of the barrel labor is being done by the immigrant.

Our immigration system should be based on Ellis Island protocol. A background check, a disease check, and a complete denial of welfare benefits.

welfare state welfare state welfare state, you realize you cant get any of the welfare state benefits without legal residence and a social security number right?


Thats false, as it is a catch-22. Plenty of immigrants with undocumented status utilize the welfare state. The paradox is that immigrants (legal and illegal) also pay heavily into taxes, thus propping up the system to continue to last longer than what it should. The immigrants people hate so much make it so this debt piling system lasts (at the moment) for liberals that believe in a safety net for all and conservatives that believe in a safety net for MURICAN BORN CITIZENS!.
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King_Hutton
01/11/19 2:26:22 PM
13
fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrantsboth legal and unauthorizedexceed the cost of the services they use.




And what is being proposed is an excessively expensive clusterfuck. So no, its not nearly the same as heres where people cross, we put up a fence and it helped.
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 2:33:13 PM
14
RoadsterUFO posted...
Theres a demand for illegal immigration into this country for a few reasons: The federal welfare state, the war on drugs, employment opportunities.

With the welfare state in tact, theres a demand for people from other countries to come into the United States and utilize it. Be it healthcare services (you cant deny service!), a parent having their kid in public school, etc. If you could simply make it so there was a 100% denial of entitments to illegal status immigrants this would go a long way. Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.

The war on drugs creates a demand for drugs to travel into the United States. Theres a demand for drugs from a number of American residents, and a supply will be provided from other countries as there is a demand for it and money to be made. End the war on drugs, abolish existing federal drug laws, and leave drug policy to the states and youll see leaps of improvement.

Another demand for illegal immigration is employment. It is in a way admirable that many immigrants will leave their old country and come here illegally because there was something better offered to them. Working min wage or under the table for below min wage to pick crops and do other labor American citizens dont want to do is beneficial to everyone. Ex: The farmer gets the cheap labor, the immigrant gets more money than they wouldve otherwise gotten in their home country, and the consumer gets lower priced goods (Ex: the lettuce for our delicious hamburgers). The American resident also gets better employment opportunities as the bottom of the barrel labor is being done by the immigrant.

Our immigration system should be based on Ellis Island protocol. A background check, a disease check, and a complete denial of welfare benefits/abolition of the federal welfare state.


The issue here is even if we made these changes, America would still be less dangerous and more opportunistic for any immigrant south of our border.

King_Hutton posted...
fiscal impact of immigration in the United States have concluded that, in aggregate and over the long term, tax revenues of all types generated by immigrantsboth legal and unauthorizedexceed the cost of the services they use.




And what is being proposed is an excessively expensive clusterfuck. So no, its not nearly the same as heres where people cross, we put up a fence and it helped.


That really isnt a good excerpt to go by because it doesnt differentiate legal or illegal. And it doesnt really disprove my point. Just because the overall tax contribution in the US exceeds the costs of services used, that doesnt negate the fact that there is a burden on stage and local taxes.

And the bottom line is, additional barriers and updating barriers is whats being requested. Whats being proposed has changed over the past two and a half years and could change even more

So it is clear, Im not arguing for or against this. I am just having a discussion.
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RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 2:37:10 PM
15
America would be less dangerous based on what? You didnt state any specific dangers.
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King_Hutton
01/11/19 2:37:21 PM
16
The Democrats approved money for more fencing and additional border security. Trump said no. The bottom line is you have to be incredibly disingenuous to pretend that hes asking for more of what is effective in San Diego.
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P4wn4g3
01/11/19 2:39:15 PM
17
Also border patrol: please pay us

I never trusted those fuckers when they were working and I sure as shit won't now.
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 2:43:52 PM
18
RoadsterUFO posted...
America would be less dangerous based on what? You didnt state any specific dangers.


Violent crime mainly but in addition to that, quality of water, food, and medicine.

King_Hutton posted...
The Democrats approved money for more fencing and additional border security. Trump said no. The bottom line is you have to be incredibly disingenuous to pretend that hes asking for more of what is effective in San Diego.


Im not. Though the current steel wall that is being proposed really looks identical to some of the current fencing in San Diego.
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Highway was jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive.
RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 2:50:04 PM
19
Violent crime mainly but in addition to that, quality of water, food, and medicine.

Based on what evidence? Youre not backing any of your claims up, youre using fearmongerig rhetoric that is line with anti-immigrantation advocates from a century ago.
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 3:00:40 PM
20
RoadsterUFO posted...
Violent crime mainly but in addition to that, quality of water, food, and medicine.

Based on what evidence? Youre not backing any of your claims up, youre using fearmongerig rhetoric that is line with anti-immigrantation advocates from a century ago.


Um...what? Im pretty sure one the most pro-immigration stances taken is how bad said immigrants have it in their countries compared to the US; the lack of job opportunity, corrupt political climates, high murder rates, and lack of safe or stable resources, including water, food, and medicine.

Why would anti-immigration folks use that?
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Highway was jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive.
EliteLevel
01/11/19 3:07:15 PM
21
A bunch of people who want to keep their jobs say their jobs are necessary. Hmmm.
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RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 3:09:47 PM
22
GregShmedley posted...
RoadsterUFO posted...
Violent crime mainly but in addition to that, quality of water, food, and medicine.

Based on what evidence? Youre not backing any of your claims up, youre using fearmongerig rhetoric that is line with anti-immigrantation advocates from a century ago.


Um...what? Im pretty sure one the most pro-immigration stances taken is how bad said immigrants have it in their countries compared to the US; the lack of job opportunity, corrupt political climates, high murder rates, and lack of safe or stable resources, including water, food, and medicine.

Why would anti-immigration folks use that?


My mistake, I did a little misreading. Ill take that L. You did say America would be less dangerous and provide more opportunity for immigrants. How is that a bad thing? You cannot force other countries to adopt policies that equate to more freedom, what you can do is make it beneficial for others to want to come here for the right reasons, such as employment and a higher quality of life. We as Americans get the cheap labor, the immigrant gets the opportunity that they would otherwise not receive in their home country, and the consumer gets lower priced goods.
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TrevorBlack79
01/11/19 3:15:33 PM
23
RoadsterUFO posted...
Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.


That would be because those conservatives aren't fucking morons, recognize the "welfare state" rhetoric is absurd, and that some level of social safety nets are necessary for a stable economy and reducing crimes of desperation.
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Giant_Aspirin
01/11/19 3:17:09 PM
24
Democrats have repeatedly said they are willing to fund additional physical barriers where they make sense.
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GregShmedley
01/11/19 3:18:25 PM
25
RoadsterUFO posted...
My mistake, I did a little misreading.


No worries. I appreciate you acknowledging it.

RoadsterUFO posted...
How is that a bad thing? You cannot force other countries to adopt policies that equate to more freedom, what you can do is make it beneficial for others to want to come here for the right reasons, such as employment and a higher quality of life.


Oh it isnt a bad thing. I was just saying that it is still a driving factor for immigrants, legally and illegally.

Though I think I misunderstood your point. You werent proposing those changes to lesson the reasons to come in, right?
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Funbazooka
01/11/19 3:35:03 PM
26
EliteLevel posted...
A bunch of people who want to keep their jobs say their jobs are necessary. Hmmm.

It absolutely is necessary to have people patrolling and guarding the border to defend the country from illegal incursions. This is basic stuff.
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MAGA
GregShmedley
01/11/19 3:58:08 PM
27
Giant_Aspirin posted...
Democrats have repeatedly said they are willing to fund additional physical barriers where they make sense.


No disagreement here.

He probably could get his wayor close to itif he had some decorum and willingness to play ball. But instead, its his way or the highway.
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Highway was jammed with broken heroes on a last chance power drive.
RoadsterUFO
01/11/19 4:14:49 PM
28
TrevorBlack79 posted...
RoadsterUFO posted...
Id prefer to end the welfare state entirely, but a bunch of so called conservatives are to my left on this.


That would be because those conservatives aren't fucking morons, recognize the "welfare state" rhetoric is absurd, and that some level of social safety nets are necessary for a stable economy and reducing crimes of desperation.


The federal welfare state has the country onto a inevitable collapse lol. We fund it by taxing the productive American resident and the immigrant, and that still isnt enough to pay for it. Additional funding comes from taxing and borrowing the assets of the unborn through the Federal Reserve.

There is no necessary of any safety net, and it sure as hell doesnt add to the economy as any (and all) taxation equates to the person that is being taxed with overall less money, spending power, buying power. Youre not noble by extorting the productive and the unborn and adding them into debt in order to give the unproductive and or the disabled bailouts that come at the costs of putting the country further in the hole. Were $21 trillion+ in debt. Math, debt, and collapses work the same way universally and do not change based on the idiots in charge spending away. The United States isnt immune to the collapse Greece had and the collapse Venezuela is currently experiencing. These idiots in D.C. cant even balance their own budgets. Politicians pay no price for their choices that have severe consequences.
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Up the hammers & down the nails! https://rateyourmusic.com/~RoadsterUFO
ultimate reaver
01/11/19 4:20:49 PM
29
They're asking for additional fencing and not an implausible massive concrete-and-steel structure that's going to cost billions to build and billions more to maintain. At least, from what I'm gathering for that.

What was offered to him was fine. He could have taken that and built some fences and moved on. But he absolutely positively has to have his big stupid symbol built so that he can put his name on it and feel like he accomplished anything this presidency
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butts
Giant_Aspirin
01/11/19 4:36:26 PM
30
GregShmedley posted...
Giant_Aspirin posted...
Democrats have repeatedly said they are willing to fund additional physical barriers where they make sense.


No disagreement here.

He probably could get his wayor close to itif he had some decorum and willingness to play ball. But instead, its his way or the highway.


his entire life has been handed to him on a silver platter with people bending over backwards to accommodate him because of his father's wealth. he is the poster child of a spoiled brat who doesn't understand the meaning of "compromise". so, yeah, spot on.
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TrevorBlack79
01/11/19 4:49:47 PM
31
RoadsterUFO posted...
rant


See, this just proves my point. Those conservatives you speak of are actual conservatives, rather than raving loons.
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"a minority is someone who you can tell off the bat they are black/hispanic/colored. LGBT isn't a minority" - Blakkheim1
GregShmedley
01/11/19 5:13:06 PM
32
Giant_Aspirin posted...
GregShmedley posted...
Giant_Aspirin posted...
Democrats have repeatedly said they are willing to fund additional physical barriers where they make sense.


No disagreement here.

He probably could get his wayor close to itif he had some decorum and willingness to play ball. But instead, its his way or the highway.


his entire life has been handed to him on a silver platter with people bending over backwards to accommodate him because of his father's wealth. he is the poster child of a spoiled brat who doesn't understand the meaning of "compromise". so, yeah, spot on.


Yeeeup.

Blows my mind when people say he cares about them. Hes incapable of understanding what life is like for those beneath him.
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