Board 8 > Mercenaries 5 Preseason Topic 2: That's The Name Of The Game

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KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 3:58:58 AM
201
After that ungraceful stomp (so sorry guys), I feel like we need a palate cleanser. Lemme know what you think of this one, everyone:

The RED Team are as they appear in Team Fortress 2 and its cinematics & comics. Each member has their standard equipment, replacing the appropriate pieces for the following items: Force-A-Nature for Scout, Buff Banner for Soldier, Thermal Thruster for Pyro, Natascha for Heavy, Pomson 6000 for Engineer, Crusader's Crossbow for Medic, Sydney Sleeper for Sniper, and Cloak & Dagger for Spy. Only one of each of the Engineers buildings may be constructed at a time. No taunt is an instant kill, though the Spys backstab will kill instantly and the enemy team is aware of this.

~VS~

Class 7 is as it appears in Trails of Cold Steel II, including all of its members (even Millium) except for Rean Schwarzer and Sara Valestein. No guest characters or special characters are present, and each classmate has access to all orbal arts belonging to the elements that match their elemental slots, plus all of their crafts and S-Crafts. They are at max level, equipped with their ultimate equipment, and optimal Master Quartz for each member. They may benefit from the effects of Battle Links with each other as appropriate.

Terrain: Realm of Terror - The domain of Diablo in the Burning Hells, complete with lava aplenty and obfuscating fog, as seen in Diablo 2, covering the River of Flame and Chaos Sanctuary, with a portal at the center of the Sanctuary leading to the hellish arena seen during the shadow section of Diablo's Diablo 3 fight. Attackers will start at the entryway to the River of Flame, with defenders starting at the heart of the Sanctuary. No demons are present.

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Paging @greengravy294 to doublecheck the Class 7 writeup in case I missed anything important. If anyone else has any comments here, lemme know as well.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
ZeeksFire
02/11/19 9:13:03 AM
202
Out of interest and curiosity Kanzaris, Demi-Fiend vs Id. Because while seeing the Raiden vs Demifiend fight up, I was thinking that Id would have been a more reasonable data point, with Raiden and Demifiend having no real points of comparison due to the differences shown in the games.

I don't know too much about the TF2 vs class 7 but it should be interesting.
DeathChicken
02/11/19 10:00:40 AM
203
But does Spy have to mostly insert his knife into an opponent to kill them
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
Kamekguy
02/11/19 12:30:54 PM
204
DeathChicken posted...
But does Spy have to mostly insert his knife into an opponent to kill them

No, that only causes a fatal wound that cannot be healed. A Backstab will kill, though.

Would define that Engine has infinite metal to work with so he's not "make a Level 2 Sentry and then cry" and that Spy can disguise as the enemy team.
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KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 12:34:20 PM
205
ZeeksFire posted...
Out of interest and curiosity Kanzaris, Demi-Fiend vs Id. Because while seeing the Raiden vs Demifiend fight up, I was thinking that Id would have been a more reasonable data point, with Raiden and Demifiend having no real points of comparison due to the differences shown in the games.

I don't know too much about the TF2 vs class 7 but it should be interesting.


Do you guys feel like it'd be a close match if demifiend doesnt have DDS outings? Feels like he'd stomp Id if he could beat RIden but I have no idea on demifiend's floor.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Mewtwo59
02/11/19 1:11:08 PM
206
I feel like the Spy is too good there. The Cloak and Dagger on a low visibility terrain with an insta-kill backstab feels like it'll dominate there.
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""Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope." HK-47
KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 1:15:57 PM
207
How about everyone else? Do you agree with that?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Kamekguy
02/11/19 1:22:01 PM
208
I am re-reading TF2 comics for research purposes.

During mid-conversation with the Scout and while he was eating a tiny cornish game hen, Spy successfully noticed a prisoner sneaking up behind him and killed him with the pointy end of a toothbrush through his back.

He might be good.

Soldier has also killed a bear twice his size with his bare hands while naked and covered in honey in the middle of Siberia.
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Gatarix
02/11/19 2:09:28 PM
209
I am pretty unfamiliar with SMT lore. Can someone explain the Demi-fiend hype? A lot of people were super bullish on him but didn't really explain why.

Misc tidbits I'm aware of:
- I played and enjoyed SMT4 but don't recall much in terms of plot/cutscene feats. But apparently DDS is where the big hype comes from anyway?
- The main argument I remember from MPFC is "He beats God" which I've always thought is pretty silly. Any 3/week RPG character can beat God. The Chrono Trigger cast beats a planet-destroying entity and nobody particularly respects them (maybe we should?)
- Cielo from DDS flies faster than a jet plane and then dies but the point is, he fast
- Heat got a ton of respect in M3 because he had Null Phys. This is fair. I'm totally willing to respect gameplay gimmickry. But I feel like the Demi-fiend respect is largely plot hype?
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Kamekguy
02/11/19 2:55:44 PM
210
The God that Demi-Fiend beats is specifically the Hebrew Creator-God, using full power of creation and world manipulation. It's a step up from "godly being" to "slight reality warper". So it's on the Giygas side of the scale rather than the Lavos side. Only instead of praying the evil away, he just punches it and hits it with spells.

In DDS, Demi-Fiend is a bonus boss. The 'normal encounter' theme plays during this fight. Cielo, from DDS who flies faster than a jet plane, can easily be one-shotted by him.

Oh also DMC1 Dante, like literally DMC1 Dante, is a mid-game encounter for him and he wins.

It's less "there's stuff to hype" and more "the floor that he walks on is so much higher than everyone else's ceiling".
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KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 7:59:49 PM
211
DMC2 Dante actually IIRC

I don't put TONS of stock into that because in the ultimate version of SMT3 Dante is replaced with Raidou Kuzunoha (who in game mechanic terms is stronger than Dante due to getting a skill that lets him hurt the bonus boss)...but on the other hand, Raidou's actions singlehandedly create the Persona timeline so I mean, dude is legit anyway.

What really makes the Demifiend respectable though is just what he accomplished. When you kill the final boss, you break time. Not like in a vague way - you killed the avatar of the Abrahamic God which makes it so the cycle of death and rebirth of all things is permanently over and nothing can be born again and the game says as much explicitly. There is no plotkai boosting you to do that either - you simply beat the crap out of said avatar until it dies and takes the world and time with it. Then you fight Lucifer to prove you can kill the Abrahamic God himself by beating him, and do, and then the game ends with you leading the hosts of hell to fight the Almighty God. You know how Zidane and friends beat Necron who is an abstract concept of death in an allegorical battle in FF9? Imagine that if it was completely non-allegorical or abstract or dreamy and simply ended with them killing death, permanently, for good. That's basically what the Demifiend accomplishes.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
greengravy294
02/11/19 8:14:00 PM
212
Demi fiend is legit

Write up seems good just make it class vii and not 7 gotta be ACCURATE
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redrocket
02/11/19 9:12:23 PM
213
KanzarisKelshen posted...
DMC2 Dante actually IIRC

I don't put TONS of stock into that because in the ultimate version of SMT3 Dante is replaced with Raidou Kuzunoha (who in game mechanic terms is stronger than Dante due to getting a skill that lets him hurt the bonus boss)...but on the other hand, Raidou's actions singlehandedly create the Persona timeline so I mean, dude is legit anyway.

What really makes the Demifiend respectable though is just what he accomplished. When you kill the final boss, you break time. Not like in a vague way - you killed the avatar of the Abrahamic God which makes it so the cycle of death and rebirth of all things is permanently over and nothing can be born again and the game says as much explicitly. There is no plotkai boosting you to do that either - you simply beat the crap out of said avatar until it dies and takes the world and time with it. Then you fight Lucifer to prove you can kill the Abrahamic God himself by beating him, and do, and then the game ends with you leading the hosts of hell to fight the Almighty God. You know how Zidane and friends beat Necron who is an abstract concept of death in an allegorical battle in FF9? Imagine that if it was completely non-allegorical or abstract or dreamy and simply ended with them killing death, permanently, for good. That's basically what the Demifiend accomplishes.


So uh, this guy sounds like he would be questionable for MPFC, let alone mercs.
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KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 9:29:50 PM
214
Part of what makes him fair is that a team of 5/weeks beats him in his strongest version (DDS, Imagine is JP only so doesn't count). His ceiling and floor are a bit weird but it's possible to fit him in the mercs curve, probably.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Johnbobb
02/11/19 9:45:31 PM
215
so finished Kingdom Hearts

I think Sora is pretty unarguably a 6 at this point

Xehanort almost definitely a 7 too but some of his abilities probably need nerfed. I still like my Ansem/Xemnas/Xehanort/Terra-Xehanort/Young-Xehanort build
though
http://mercsce.pbworks.com/w/page/113467864/Xehanort
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Drakeryn
02/11/19 9:51:47 PM
216
KanzarisKelshen posted...
You know how Zidane and friends beat Necron who is an abstract concept of death in an allegorical battle in FF9?

That was allegorical? I guess I need to brush up on my Necron lore.

In general, I don't put much stock in cameo bosses. Like Gilgamesh is an 8-man raid in FFXIV, but I would not take that as evidence that the FFXIV universe has a lower power level than the FFV universe.

Also I <3 ALEK solid 7/week.

Based on this discussion I am leaning Demi-Fiend should be banned, not because he's too powerful, but because he's too vague.

A: My merc is so powerful, look at his durability and strength *posts cutscene*
B: My merc is so powerful, look at his sweet sword moves and speed *posts gameplay footage*
C: Yeah well, my merc defeated the Abrahamic God

It doesn't really give you a meaningful point of comparison? Like, you could argue B > A because B is too fast for A to land a solid blow, or something. But C is just kinda out there. You will have some people coming in to vote ABRAHAMIC GOD RESPEK and others saying "cutscene showings tho?" and getting no response and leaving without voting.
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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
X_Dante_X
02/11/19 9:58:53 PM
217
ffxiv warrior of light 20/week
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boring and mundane signature
Now with more bold! Less Italics due to bold
X_Dante_X
02/11/19 9:59:26 PM
218
or 1/week
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boring and mundane signature
Now with more bold! Less Italics due to bold
Drakeryn
02/11/19 9:59:57 PM
219
cutscene showings tho?
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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
KanzarisKelshen
02/11/19 10:05:50 PM
220
Necron is definitely allegorical. Zidane and co. all die to Kuja and fight off the death that comes to claim them in the afterlife to get back. He's called 'Darkness of Eternity' in JP to better convey the idea that he's not really a normal boss like the dude you just beat but more of a concept. It's why such a wonky boss comes outta nowhere with 0 plot relevance (that and Sakaguchi wanted a throwback to other wonky-ass NES/SNES final bosses like Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus and so on, according to interviews).
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
DeathChicken
02/13/19 4:43:58 AM
221
I'd rather see Squad 7 from Valkyria Chronicles
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
Luis_Sera89
02/13/19 8:02:30 AM
222
For reference, Demifiend was considered but never released as a combat merc in M4 for the same reason Morrigan Aensland wasn't. When the potential bar is that high, you have to produce some compelling reasoning/evidence that releasing the merc isn't going to break the game (all of this was before week 41 clearly), and no-one could.

Like, he was on the docket for a potential release for weeks, with a build and everything, and even bearing in mind we needed every high tier merc we could get, he still wasn't released.
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KanzarisKelshen
02/13/19 10:52:36 AM
223
Luis_Sera89 posted...
For reference, Demifiend was considered but never released as a combat merc in M4 for the same reason Morrigan Aensland wasn't. When the potential bar is that high, you have to produce some compelling reasoning/evidence that releasing the merc isn't going to break the game (all of this was before week 41 clearly), and no-one could.

Like, he was on the docket for a potential release for weeks, with a build and everything, and even bearing in mind we needed every high tier merc we could get, he still wasn't released.


Yeah, the match he had bears that out, at least in part. His post-Nocturne showings only giving him more hype is kind of unhelpful in that sense.

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(On a different note, I will post the Team vs Team match tonight. Sorry for the delays everyone, was pretty busy for a bit.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
KanzarisKelshen
02/13/19 7:54:54 PM
224
Match is up! Let's have some fun everyone: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77480753
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
DeathChicken
02/15/19 10:57:29 AM
225
...
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
Kamekguy
02/15/19 5:02:24 PM
226
https://thedaytonight.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Final-Fantasy-Tactics-Advance-Screenshot-1.jpg

Three-person TF2 group in mid tier came up as an option and sounds decent, though. A retooling wouldn't be all that difficult with that in mind.

But yes, "less groups". Got it. Noted. Done.
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Gatarix
02/15/19 5:48:32 PM
227
Yeah I'm not opposed to TF2 guys in principle. Spy is a lot of fun and I don't really know the others well enough to say. But they likely get more focus/interest solo (and if some are not interesting enough to be a solo merc, those probably shouldn't be in).
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You put your RESOLVE HAT back on, which conveniently is the same hat as your NORMAL HAT.
{Drakeryn}
KanzarisKelshen
02/15/19 6:33:01 PM
228
The tf2 guys kinda work better in some kinda team in general. Like...Medic alone is a bad release even though he does nice things, but Medic + Heavy is a lot more interesting than the sum of its parts if that makes any sense? A full team is prolly too much tho.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Lopen
02/15/19 6:36:37 PM
229
I think group mercs are only really useful in high tier to flesh it out a bit. Depending on whether you're going to retool the tier system or whatever they may or may not serve much purpose.

Doing some sorta weird Killer7esque ability for the TF2 guys where you could pick one or multiples to send out might be cool though.
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No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
KanzarisKelshen
02/15/19 7:18:23 PM
230
Yeah the theory atm is like a 'Meet The Team' custom where you pick two dudes to send out every peacetime

maybe three with a char upgrade and possibly an upkeep hike from 4 to 5/week

Seems like an OK way to capture their flavor? Hopefully two or three dudes isn't too much to handle
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Drakeryn
02/15/19 8:35:48 PM
231
KanzarisKelshen posted...
Like...Medic alone is a bad release even though he does nice things, but Medic + Heavy is a lot more interesting than the sum of its parts if that makes any sense? A full team is prolly too much tho.

You think so? I feel like Medic is a pretty versatile standalone guy. (Invulnerable Sonic and Vivi! Ike and MMX with auto-crits!) His downside is low durability and inability to heal himself, but that just means he needs a tank, not necessarily a TF2 tank.

edit: Unless you mean "a dedicated healer is not worth a whole roster spot" which may be right. He'd make a great assist merc though!!
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another place and time, without a great divide, and we could be flying deadly high
KanzarisKelshen
02/15/19 9:08:48 PM
232
Yeah I meant 'not worth a whole slot'. It's why pairing him with someone else makes more sense since then you get Value (TM) without feeling like you lose firepower
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
DeathChicken
02/15/19 9:14:30 PM
233
I dunno, I'd place him above most dedicated healers just because he does not need to cast. Essentially he's making whoever he decides to hang around twice as annoying to kill unless he's specifically singled out and murdered (I imagine him healbotting Armstrong and giggle)
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
Lopen
02/16/19 12:17:36 AM
234
I still think healing is more worth a slot than people think if the heal bot has actual good heal options. I basically had healbot Yu Narukami clutch out a match more than once in the draft edition. People just don't try it because people have historically been dumb about rostering them wisely. Medic could definitely be worth a slot with a good team composition though.
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KanzarisKelshen
02/16/19 1:15:51 AM
235
Lopen posted...
I still think healing is more worth a slot than people think if the heal bot has actual good heal options. I basically had healbot Yu Narukami clutch out a match more than once in the draft edition. People just don't try it because people have historically been dumb about rostering them wisely. Medic could definitely be worth a slot with a good team composition though.


Part of the problem is most healers suck because of 'balance'

Yu is a strong healer cause he packs a lot of buffs and stuff and his heals are super fast maxouts

Somebody who can do nothing BUT heal is...well, Garnet from FF9 or Aerith and we saw how that panned out.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Tom Bombadil
02/16/19 7:48:50 AM
236
Granted it was before slots were a thing, but one of my best decisions in the first few Mercses was bringing in Banon to healbot for cheap.
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DeathChicken
02/16/19 8:42:54 AM
237
Difference being A) Garnet and Aerith have to stop and cast spells to do their thing, so they're prone to interruption and B) they're both horribly fragile. Anyone who's played TF2 knows Medic is surprisingly annoying to kill. He has automatic regen, he has slightly more HP than you'd think he would, in an emergency he's fast enough to hoof it away from anyone not named Scout
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable
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