Current Events > Abraham Lincoln on racial equality

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate4.htm

Discuss.
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Time to destroy all 5s and pennies! And tear down that fucking memorial!
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shnangyboos posted...

Time to destroy all 5s and pennies! And tear down that fucking memorial!

If you do that, every president would be worth the same as Lincoln. I have no interest in liberal babble like you do. I'm more interested in other responses.
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jeez louise, abe.
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I think it's simply true that Lincoln was a product of his time, but the positive effect of his actual actions outweigh the negativity of his intentions. And while it's true that other politicians or possible presidents could have done the same thing, others may not have. Thus, the fact that he's a racist does not change the fact that he's a racist who ended up being a pretty good president all things considered.
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Seemed to me like he tweaked his tone to suit his audience.
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Furthermore, and I suppose this is necessary to point out, but this is a public debate. You can't just say w/e the fuck you want, because you'll just lose.
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AdviceMan posted...

Furthermore, and I suppose this is necessary to point out, but this is a public debate. You can't just say w/e the fuck you want, because you'll just lose.

Well, this used to be the case before Trump.
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I find these responses to be dissatisfying because there were people from this time who had views quite similar to most of you, yet Lincoln gets a pass for something that's just a constant in American history.
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Anti-245 posted...

I find these responses to be dissatisfying because there were people from this time who had views quite similar to most of you, yet Lincoln gets a pass for something that's just a constant in American history.

I'm sure there were. Consider how the trends of support for gay marriage have change in the last 20 years. Yes, there were people who had always been in support for gay marriage, but every demographic "no" was the majority up until relatively recently. When I was a wee Catholic lad, I was like "Why can't they have civil unions and get all the benefits we have when we get married, if the whole marriage thing is a big deal." That was considered rather progressive. You can look back and say "That's not good enough." You'd be absolutely right. But my views didn't come from maliciousness or dislike from gay people, merely a misunderstanding of what constituted equality.

His views are not good views. But I am not so arrogant as to believe that I'd have been a trailblazer had I been in his position, nor is there any way to prove or tell if I would be. You can say you would be, but that would be equally unconvincing. After all, anyone can say in hindsight that they WOULD have been on the right side of history when there are no sacrifices to be made. Furthermore, I'm not even sure what you mean by "a pass". Lincoln is generally not favored at this point because of views, rather his actions. Even though those were romanticized as well, they were, for the most part, reasonable and net positives.

I'm simply not sure what the end game of this topic is. To dispel the myth that most educated people do not believe in the first place? To educate?
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So is this topic just an attempt to compare Lincoln to confederate generals who have statues in danger of being removed?
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Crimson_Angel posted...

So is this topic just an attempt to compare Lincoln to confederate generals who have statues in danger of being removed?

Maybe not that aim specifically, but it's likely concern trolling.
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There really aren't very many white people in this country that would support a public leader who quite literally gave a speech about how whites and blacks aren't equal
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Anti-245 posted...

I find these responses to be dissatisfying because there were people from this time who had views quite similar to most of you, yet Lincoln gets a pass for something that's just a constant in American history.

If some of these racist users on this dying videogame message board freed a race of people from bondage then they'd get a pass too.
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AdviceMan posted...

Anti-245 posted...

I find these responses to be dissatisfying because there were people from this time who had views quite similar to most of you, yet Lincoln gets a pass for something that's just a constant in American history.

I'm sure there were. Consider how the trends of support for gay marriage have change in the last 20 years. Yes, there were people who had always been in support for gay marriage, but every demographic "no" was the majority up until relatively recently. When I was a wee Catholic lad, I was like "Why can't they have civil unions and get all the benefits we have when we get married, if the whole marriage thing is a big deal." That was considered rather progressive. You can look back and say "That's not good enough." You'd be absolutely right. But my views didn't come from maliciousness or dislike from gay people, merely a misunderstanding of what constituted equality.

His views are not good views. But I am not so arrogant as to believe that I'd have been a trailblazer had I been in his position, nor is there any way to prove or tell if I would be. You can say you would be, but that would be equally unconvincing. After all, anyone can say in hindsight that they WOULD have been on the right side of history when there are no sacrifices to be made. Furthermore, I'm not even sure what you mean by "a pass". Lincoln is generally not favored at this point because of views, rather his actions. Even though those were romanticized as well, they were, for the most part, reasonable and net positives.

I'm simply not sure what the end game of this topic is. To dispel the myth that most educated people do not believe in the first place? To educate?

That racism white supremacy is a constant in American history and always will be. Lincoln's goal with keeping his union together had no slaves in his plans. He wanted to send us back to Africa immediately after the war. The slaves simply took advantage of a war between two snakes.
I believe gay marriage and chattel slavery are not comparable at all. Perhaps you should try something more like prison slavery abolition.
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A_Good_Boy posted...

Anti-245 posted...

I find these responses to be dissatisfying because there were people from this time who had views quite similar to most of you, yet Lincoln gets a pass for something that's just a constant in American history.

If some of these racist users on this dying videogame message board freed a race of people from bondage then they'd get a pass too.

Yup.

Perascamin posted...

There really aren't very many white people in this country that would support a public leader who quite literally gave a speech about how whites and blacks aren't equal

No, but when the speech uses dog whistles as opposed to literal statements, a startling amount of people absorb it.
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Perascamin posted...

There really aren't very many white people in this country that would support a public leader who quite literally gave a speech about how whites and blacks aren't equal

They dress it up in language about economics and culture but the result is the same
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You're on CE, people here will post contrarian nonsense just for the hell of it. Yes, Lincoln was a racist. This has been known literally since he was alive. But he wasn't an angry racist who wanted blacks enslaved or killed, he was more of a separatist (not the "we want a white nation" type we have nowadays.) As he sad during one debate with Douglas, "Because I do not want a black woman for a slave, I must necessarily want her for a wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone."

He didn't want to do anything that would make Southerners antsy about his intentions toward slavery (that didn't work), and even after the Civil War began, he didn't try to do anything about slavery until he needed to (the timing of the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't an accident; he knew it would prevent England or France from 'coming to the rescue' of the Confederacy). But still, he didn't do anything just because he wanted blacks to have equal rights, he did it because he felt slavery was an unnecessary evil and a negative to America's international prestige.
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DiScOrD tHe LuNaTiC posted...

You're on CE, people here will post contrarian nonsense just for the hell of it. Yes, Lincoln was a racist. This has been known literally since he was alive. But he wasn't an angry racist who wanted blacks enslaved or killed, he was more of a separatist (not the "we want a white nation" type we have nowadays.) As he sad during one debate with Douglas, "Because I do not want a black woman for a slave, I must necessarily want her for a wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone."

He didn't want to do anything that would make Southerners antsy about his intentions toward slavery (that didn't work), and even after the Civil War began, he didn't try to do anything about slavery until he needed to (the timing of the Emancipation Proclamation wasn't an accident; he knew it would prevent England or France from 'coming to the rescue' of the Confederacy). But still, he didn't do anything just because he wanted blacks to have equal rights, he did it because he felt slavery was an unnecessary evil and a negative to America's international prestige.

Sounds like a certain politician these days.
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Who'd have guessed a guy born in a log cabin 200 years ago would have different social views than most of us today
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shnangyboos posted...

Time to destroy all 5s and pennies! And tear down that fucking memorial!

Put Harriet Tubman on all of the money!
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Literally everyone knows Lincoln didn't care one way or the other about freeing the slaves.
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Typical Republican. He is dead to me.
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While I was at the hotel to-day, an elderly gentleman called upon me to know whether I was really in favor of producing a perfect equality between the negroes and white people. [Great Laughter.] While I had not proposed to myself on this occasion to say much on that subject, yet as the question was asked me I thought I would occupy perhaps five minutes in saying something in regard to it. I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, [applause]-

The audience reaction


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pres_madagascar posted...

Literally everyone knows Lincoln didn't care one way or the other about freeing the slaves.

The Emancipation Proclamation was issued after the battle of Antietam, a tactical Union victory. At that point in the war many in the north wanted a treaty. Lincoln, wanting to preserve the union, made a decision to free slaves in states in rebellion only (so if you were a slave in Maryland at the time, sorry) thinking they would rebel and disrupt the south's economy, possibly turning on their masters in great numbers.

shockthemonkey posted...

It took until the mid 90s for the majority of the country to be ok with interracial marriage, so Im not all that mad that the dude who freed the slaves was against it. He wouldnt have had the power to do anything if he hadnt been a sack of crap.

That's just saying that country is extremely racist.
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Anti-245 posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

It took until the mid 90s for the majority of the country to be ok with interracial marriage, so Im not all that mad that the dude who freed the slaves was against it. He wouldnt have had the power to do anything if he hadnt been a sack of crap.

That's just saying that country is extremely racist.

Well it is the country that went to war with itself to preserve slavery, then turned around and said those slavers were heroes after the war was over.
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It sounds like Robert E. Lee was more progressive than Lincoln!
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

It sounds like Robert E. Lee was more progressive than Lincoln!

Maybe in speech, sure. But one freed the slaves and the other fought for the creation of a nation where slavery was entrenched in its constitution.

So not really.
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EndOfDiscOne posted...

It sounds like Robert E. Lee was more progressive than Lincoln!

At the end of the day, one fought to preserve slavery and the other fought to abolish the institution.
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Lincoln was an astute speaker who understood his audience and knew the volatility of the situation. There are a lot of things Lincoln would not have done were he really a serious racist, like, you know, bringing Frederick Douglass to the white house and insisting on him being intelligent, an equal, and a friend.

Regardless, most people of the time were victims of the literature and popular understanding in the same way we're still filled with implicit biases today.
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Middle hope posted...

shnangyboos posted...

Time to destroy all 5s and pennies! And tear down that fucking memorial!

Put Harriet Tubman on all of the money!

I liked the pic that said "the best thing about Harriet Tubman being on the $20 bill is that when you open your wallet, she's going to be staring at you like 'You don't need that shit'."
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I don't really understand what it is TC is trying to say here. A large number of people, and for a long time the majority of people, in this country and around the world were racist throughout history. They were also sexist, against everything lgbtq related, and bigoted about other issues that we today are still blind to.

It's hard to judge people outside the context of their time. Society has a major impact on what we value.
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shockthemonkey posted...

And yet, at pretty much any time, there have been people smart enough to say no, thats just fucked up.

And? If 10 people grow up in single parent homes in abject poverty, and 9 of them end up poor or in jail as adults but one of them becomes a millionaire are you going to tell the 9 that their current misfortune is entirely their own doing?
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Didnt the biggest mass execution in US history occur by Lincoln's orders? And of Native Americans no less. And people give Jackson shit for preventing Southerners for massacring them
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Brilliant retort 10/10
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K next time don't bother quoting me if you're just going to shitpost.
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funny how its moddable to post trumans racist letters.

almost as if america wants to hide the fact he was a white supremacist that dropped nukes on asians.
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The reason people are less racist now than 150 years ago is because we are just better people than they were
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