Current Events > Masculinity

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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:23:43 AM
#1:


Why do we need it?
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 1:24:55 AM
#2:


I don't think it's a question of "need."
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:27:13 AM
#3:


Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.
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ThyCorndog
12/17/18 1:27:55 AM
#4:


it's attractive to a lot of women
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Vita_Aeterna
12/17/18 1:28:14 AM
#5:


We need masculinity and femininity both.
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ehhwhatever
12/17/18 1:28:14 AM
#6:


you are either headed for it or away from it
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EnragedSlith
12/17/18 1:30:27 AM
#7:


Because thats how babies are made. At the heart of masculinity is competition, namely, why one set of genes are passed on over another. The strongest persist and the population benefits.

Sexual selection is super complicated, though, and so theres room for a whole spectrum of participants.
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Mareen
12/17/18 1:34:08 AM
#8:


Both masculinity and femininity are just characteristics, both physical and social.

We don't really need the terms and tbh I don't really care about them but they exist and while certain things about them might change (largely the more social aspects), I don't see them going away at any point, especially considering the physical, biological aspects.
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 1:34:24 AM
#9:


Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:36:38 AM
#10:


Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:37:23 AM
#11:


Mareen posted...
Both masculinity and femininity are just characteristics, both physical and social.

We don't really need the terms and tbh I don't really care about them but they exist and while certain things about them might change (largely the more social aspects), I don't see them going away at any point, especially considering the physical, biological aspects.

Physicality is not the issue at hand.
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 1:40:45 AM
#12:


Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.

That doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity or femininity won't emerge as concepts. While we may not need to rely on gender roles as a means of conveying social responsibility and expectation anymore, but they didn't emerge in a vaccuum.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:44:24 AM
#13:


Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.

That doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity or femininity won't emerge as concepts. While we may not need to rely on gender roles as a means of conveying social responsibility and expectation anymore, but they didn't emerge in a vaccuum.

What is your definition of masculinity?
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Ultima Dragon
12/17/18 1:46:21 AM
#14:


We should just abolish all emotion, language, physical expression, etc.. and communicate using only a series of beeps and boops.
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CiIantro
12/17/18 1:46:39 AM
#15:


Vita_Aeterna posted...
We need masculinity and femininity both.

Hardly. The concepts of masculinity and femininity vary across cultures, and some cultures have different classifications altogether. They are nothing more than social constructs. Vestigial remnants from the past.
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scar the 1
12/17/18 1:46:51 AM
#16:


EnragedSlith posted...
Because thats how babies are made.

I don't wanna be all ad hominemmy, but you make it sound like you don't know a lot about sex
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:48:30 AM
#17:


Ultima Dragon posted...
We should just abolish all emotion, language, physical expression, etc.. and communicate using only a series of beeps and boops.

Abandoning masculinity would actually encourage more emotions and expressions rather than what we have now.
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 1:48:44 AM
#18:


Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.

That doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity or femininity won't emerge as concepts. While we may not need to rely on gender roles as a means of conveying social responsibility and expectation anymore, but they didn't emerge in a vaccuum.

What is your definition of masculinity?

A term used to describe behavior commonly associated with men.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 1:51:41 AM
#19:


Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.

That doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity or femininity won't emerge as concepts. While we may not need to rely on gender roles as a means of conveying social responsibility and expectation anymore, but they didn't emerge in a vaccuum.

What is your definition of masculinity?

A term used to describe behavior commonly associated with men.

That's not mine. So we're talking about two different things.
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 1:52:38 AM
#20:


Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Well, then we can dispose of it since it serves us no inherent value at the moment.

As long as those of a certain gender exhibit any degree of behavioral trends, and as long as we are able as a society to discern these trends, masculinity will always have a place in our language.

Well, we can get rid of gender roles then. They are of no service.

That doesn't necessarily mean that masculinity or femininity won't emerge as concepts. While we may not need to rely on gender roles as a means of conveying social responsibility and expectation anymore, but they didn't emerge in a vaccuum.

What is your definition of masculinity?

A term used to describe behavior commonly associated with men.

That's not mine. So we're talking about two different things.

So what's your definition?
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GreatEvilEmpire
12/17/18 1:57:31 AM
#21:


Masculinity and femininity are not social constructs. It's part of nature. It's everywhere in nature.

As long as human continues to reproduce, there will always be masculinity and femininity. No amount of political correctness will change that. Men are attracted to feminine qualities and women are attracted to masculine qualities.
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CiIantro
12/17/18 1:58:57 AM
#22:


GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Masculinity and femininity are not social constructs.

Explain to me why some cultures (particularly tribal indigenous) didn't have it? Biological sex is part of nature--the way the sexes are expected to act is made up by society. There is nothing "natural" about pink being a "feminine" color.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:01:57 AM
#23:


Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.
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teepan95
12/17/18 2:04:06 AM
#24:


Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's...not masculinity

It's a concept, and an unnecessary one at that

But it sure ain't masculinity
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CiIantro
12/17/18 2:04:14 AM
#25:


Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

Correct. Women were historically treated as property and expected to serve men. Attributes associated with that role came to be known as "feminine".
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GreatEvilEmpire
12/17/18 2:06:10 AM
#26:


CiIantro posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Masculinity and femininity are not social constructs.

Explain to me why some cultures (particularly tribal indigenous) didn't have it? Biological sex is part of nature--the way the sexes are expected to act is made up by society. There is nothing "natural" about pink being a "feminine" color.


Show me research where it says that there are no concept of masculinity in indigenous tribes.

And about the color pink. There are plenty of research where female babies and toddlers, who are not socially brainwashed instinctively choose the color pink while boys prefer blue.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:06:48 AM
#27:


teepan95 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's...not masculinity

It's a concept, and an unnecessary one at that

But it sure ain't masculinity

You just have a different concept in mind. Maybe you're thinking of "maleness" and equating it with masculinity.
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CiIantro
12/17/18 2:08:28 AM
#28:


GreatEvilEmpire posted...
CiIantro posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Masculinity and femininity are not social constructs.

Explain to me why some cultures (particularly tribal indigenous) didn't have it? Biological sex is part of nature--the way the sexes are expected to act is made up by society. There is nothing "natural" about pink being a "feminine" color.


Show me research where it says that there are no concept of masculinity in indigenous tribes.

And about the color pink. There are plenty of research where female babies and toddlers, who are not socially brainwashed instinctively choose the color pink while boys prefer blue.


#1. That was easy:
http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/article/third-gender-native-american-tribes

#2. Pink was considered "masculine" in the early 1900s. Nice try though.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/
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teepan95
12/17/18 2:08:59 AM
#29:


Anti-245 posted...
teepan95 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's...not masculinity

It's a concept, and an unnecessary one at that

But it sure ain't masculinity

You just have a different concept in mind. Maybe you're thinking of "maleness" and equating it with masculinity.

Definition of masculinity in English:

masculinity

NOUN

mass noun

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.

handsome, muscled, and driven, he's a prime example of masculinity


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:15:23 AM
#30:


teepan95 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
teepan95 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's...not masculinity

It's a concept, and an unnecessary one at that

But it sure ain't masculinity

You just have a different concept in mind. Maybe you're thinking of "maleness" and equating it with masculinity.

Definition of masculinity in English:

masculinity

NOUN

mass noun

Qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of men.

handsome, muscled, and driven, he's a prime example of masculinity


https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/masculinity

So, you just agree with a dictionary without actual research into the matter?
Here's a few dictionary definitions that I don't agree with:
Definition of atheism in English:

atheism
NOUN

mass noun
Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

White
NOUN

2Belonging to or denoting a human group having light-coloured skin (chiefly used of peoples of European extraction)
a white farming community
More example sentencesSynonyms
2.1 Relating to white people.
white Australian culture
More example sentences
2.2South African historical Reserved by law for those classified as white.

Definition of science in English:

science
NOUN

mass noun
1The intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.
the world of science and technology
More example sentencesSynonyms
1.1 A particular area of science.
veterinary science
count noun the agricultural sciences
More example sentences
1.2 A systematically organized body of knowledge on a particular subject.
the science of criminology
More example sentences
1.3archaic Knowledge of any kind.
his rare science and his practical skill

Now, I have objections to all three but that's what the dictionary says.
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:17:31 AM
#31:


Wait, which if those definitions are you disagreeing with
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cmiller4642
12/17/18 2:17:34 AM
#32:


Outdated practices from cavemen that people clung onto until the 1990s
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 2:18:38 AM
#33:


Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's an odd definition. Most people refer to that as "the patriarchy," iirc. What lead you to defining it that way? And if I may ask, what word do you use to describe behavior commonly associated with men?
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:18:44 AM
#34:


rikasa posted...
Wait, which if those definitions are you disagreeing with

All three of them, more or less.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:19:35 AM
#35:


Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's an odd definition. Most people refer to that as "the patriarchy," iirc. What lead you to defining it that way? And if I may ask, what word do you use to describe behavior commonly associated with men?

Those are just gender roles, usually socially enforced by society at large.
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:19:55 AM
#36:


Can you explain it or just a feeling you have
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GreatEvilEmpire
12/17/18 2:20:27 AM
#37:


CiIantro posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
CiIantro posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Masculinity and femininity are not social constructs.

Explain to me why some cultures (particularly tribal indigenous) didn't have it? Biological sex is part of nature--the way the sexes are expected to act is made up by society. There is nothing "natural" about pink being a "feminine" color.


Show me research where it says that there are no concept of masculinity in indigenous tribes.

And about the color pink. There are plenty of research where female babies and toddlers, who are not socially brainwashed instinctively choose the color pink while boys prefer blue.


#1. That was easy:
http://www.soc.ucsb.edu/sexinfo/article/third-gender-native-american-tribes

#2. Pink was considered "masculine" in the early 1900s. Nice try though.
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/10/pink-used-common-color-boys-blue-girls/


Are you kidding? The Zuni are a bunch of fetishists. It's in their religion to have a "middle gender". It's no different than Christians' belief in the concept of heaven and hell. It's still just religion and it's religion that dictated their actions. And they're an exception, not the rule. Masculinity and femininity are natural no matter how much you deny it.

And just because pink was part of a trend doesn't make it fact. What is with you using edge cases to deny fact? Here's some real research about how babies as young as 9 months old understanding gender preferences:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160715114739.htm
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:21:47 AM
#38:


Would you guys argue that masculine traits are associated with increased testosterone, like a bigger body, hairy, deep voice, and violence?
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cmiller4642
12/17/18 2:23:16 AM
#39:


rikasa posted...
Would you guys argue that masculine traits are associated with increased testosterone, like a bigger body, hairy, deep voice, and violence?


Most people who are proud to be masculine are very very insecure about themselves and are big alt right Trump supporters
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Dragonblade01
12/17/18 2:23:53 AM
#40:


Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's an odd definition. Most people refer to that as "the patriarchy," iirc. What lead you to defining it that way? And if I may ask, what word do you use to describe behavior commonly associated with men?

Those are just gender roles, usually socially enforced by society at large.

And? That doesn't preclude masculinity from referring to behaviors (and traits, I forgot to mention that originally) that some society commonly associates with men. I'm still curious how you arrived at your definition, because that's a very uncommon usage.
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:23:56 AM
#41:


not sure how that relates to hormones
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CiIantro
12/17/18 2:25:26 AM
#42:


GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Are you kidding? The Zuni are a bunch of fetishists.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Here's some real research about how babies as young as 9 months old understanding gender preferences:

Yeah, a 9 month old boy has an evolutionary predisposition to play with a toy car (something invented less than 100 years ago lmao). Find me something that replicates these results, because they make zero logical sense.
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teepan95
12/17/18 2:27:07 AM
#43:


Anti-245 posted...
So, you just agree with a dictionary without actual research into the matter?
Here's a few dictionary definitions that I don't agree with:

Cool, but doesn't refute what I posted.

Feel free to back up your definition(s) with actual sources. Until then, I'll assume you're merely pulling a UR
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:28:15 AM
#44:


Atheism, to me, refers just to a lack of conviction to God, but these days it encompasses much more than that. It's become somewhat of a reactionary movement within society against certain religious extremism. It usually goes hand in hand with imperial beliefs about the United States and disdain for marginalized communities.

White is much more than a skin color. It's an ideology that usually reinforces itself through social pressure among european Americans. It too acts as a justification of atrocities at home and abroad when it comes to non-whites. It's companion, in my opinion, would be blackness with which society grants those that it seems as ills racially.

Science is, to me, an effort to improve knowledge of the natural world but I would caution against using terms like observation and experimentation strictly. Plenty of scientific ideas remain theoretical at the moment but they're just as important as the experiments and observations.
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:28:27 AM
#45:


I'm still waiting to hear how atheism isn't "Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods"
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rikasa
12/17/18 2:29:03 AM
#46:


Anti-245 posted...
It's become somewhat of a reactionary movement within society against certain religious extremism. It usually goes hand in hand with imperial beliefs about the United States and disdain for marginalized communities.

this is such a steaming pile of subjective bullshit that can only come from the fingers of someone who doesn't go outside
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:31:18 AM
#47:


Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Dragonblade01 posted...
Anti-245 posted...
Masculinity is an ideology of patriarchal societies that generally justifies the advantages that men have over non-men systemically. It maintains its power through constant propaganda throughout the society similarly, but not exactly, to whiteness with race.

That's an odd definition. Most people refer to that as "the patriarchy," iirc. What lead you to defining it that way? And if I may ask, what word do you use to describe behavior commonly associated with men?

Those are just gender roles, usually socially enforced by society at large.

And? That doesn't preclude masculinity from referring to behaviors (and traits, I forgot to mention that originally) that some society commonly associates with men. I'm still curious how you arrived at your definition, because that's a very uncommon usage.

I suppose you could use whatever terms you want to to describe behaviors but I feel you are looking into this society as if it remains neutral, which is I believe you agree with masculinity being as simple as just gender roles.
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Anti-245
12/17/18 2:32:54 AM
#48:


rikasa posted...
Anti-245 posted...
It's become somewhat of a reactionary movement within society against certain religious extremism. It usually goes hand in hand with imperial beliefs about the United States and disdain for marginalized communities.

this is such a steaming pile of subjective bullshit that can only come from the fingers of someone who doesn't go outside

Just an observation of atheists within the west. You don't have to take my word for it just look up some of the famous authors and their work after 9/11.
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teepan95
12/17/18 2:33:58 AM
#49:


Anti-245 posted...
Atheism, to me, refers just to a lack of conviction to God, but these days it encompasses much more than that. It's become somewhat of a reactionary movement within society against certain religious extremism. It usually goes hand in hand with imperial beliefs about the United States and disdain for marginalized communities.

We have a phrase for that: militant atheism

Anti-245 posted...
White is much more than a skin color. It's an ideology that usually reinforces itself through social pressure among european Americans. It too acts as a justification of atrocities at home and abroad when it comes to non-whites. It's companion, in my opinion, would be blackness with which society grants those that it seems as ills racially.

So white exceptionalism?

Anti-245 posted...
Science is, to me, an effort to improve knowledge of the natural world but I would caution against using terms like observation and experimentation strictly. Plenty of scientific ideas remain theoretical at the moment but they're just as important as the experiments and observations.

The scientific method is based around falsifiability. Hypotheses have to be able to make predictions through experiments and observations in order to become theories.

As much as you ridiculed me for going to the dictionary, I'd recommend opening one once in a while. You'll find it easier to express your ideas if you have the vocabulary necessary to do so
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GreatEvilEmpire
12/17/18 2:34:02 AM
#50:


CiIantro posted...
GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Are you kidding? The Zuni are a bunch of fetishists.

No true Scotsman fallacy.

GreatEvilEmpire posted...
Here's some real research about how babies as young as 9 months old understanding gender preferences:

Yeah, a 9 month old boy has an evolutionary predisposition to play with a toy car (something invented less than 100 years ago lmao). Find me something that replicates these results, because they make zero logical sense.


A car is nothing more than an object. It didn't matter if it was a car or a wagon or toy sword. The car was used as an example. Boys and girls gravitated toward different objects naturally.

You've already made up your mind. Clearly a lot of self-brainwashing going on for obvious reasons. No matter how much you deny the laws of nature, it will continue to apply itself for centuries to come.
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