Current Events > C/D: Lawyers who KNOWINGLY defend guilty clients should be punished too.

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NotWhiteNinja
12/13/18 7:20:35 PM
#1:


C or D? - Results (65 votes)
C
4.62% (3 votes)
3
D
95.38% (62 votes)
62
C, including even if they didn't know
0% (0 votes)
0
Keyword here is "knowingly". I don't think they should be punished if they can show they weren't aware of their client's guilt and abandoned the defence as soon as they became aware of it.

To anyone who says D, what's your response to the question in post #3?
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ChainedRedone
12/13/18 7:21:06 PM
#2:


That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.
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NotWhiteNinja
12/13/18 7:21:44 PM
#3:


ChainedRedone posted...
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.


Do you believe that if the criminal has an accomplice who helps cover up the crime, they should be held responsible?

If not, why are lawyers any different? They're doing the same thing, just in a different way. Furthermore, whereas the accomplice is likely doing it just as "part of the team" or "to help their mate", the lawyer is doing it purely for financial gain - arguably making it even worse.
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HylianFox
12/13/18 7:22:13 PM
#4:


I'm honestly not sure how it works when the lawyer KNOWS 100% that their client is guilty
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Ambience
12/13/18 7:22:20 PM
#5:


Everyone is entitled to a defense though. Even scum who rape children or other horrible crimes. It's a pillar of our country's justice system.
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Vertania
12/13/18 7:22:58 PM
#6:


ChainedRedone posted...
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.
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glitteringfairy
12/13/18 7:23:15 PM
#7:


HylianFox posted...
I'm honestly not sure how it works when the lawyer KNOWS 100% that their client is guilty

Attorney client privilege so it's irrelevant
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Neoconkers
12/13/18 7:23:47 PM
#8:


ChainedRedone posted...
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.

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Frolex
12/13/18 7:24:10 PM
#9:


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Freddie_Mercury
12/13/18 7:24:10 PM
#10:


User Since: Nov 2015
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Active Posts: 131
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Ambience
12/13/18 7:24:24 PM
#11:


Frolex posted...
who alt this is

It's DarkTransient
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ChainedRedone
12/13/18 7:24:28 PM
#12:


NotWhiteNinja posted...
If not, why are lawyers any different? They're doing the same thing, just in a different way. Furthermore, whereas the accomplice is likely doing it just as "part of the team" or "to help their mate", the lawyer is doing it purely for financial gain - arguably making it even worse.


That's literally their job. The whole point of the justice system.
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thronedfire2
12/13/18 7:24:37 PM
#13:


A defense lawyers job is also to make sure his clients rights arent violated in any way, its not just to try to prove someone innocent
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Frolex
12/13/18 7:24:55 PM
#14:


Ambience posted...
Frolex posted...
who alt this is

It's DarkTransient


sounds about right
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Jeff AKA Snoopy
12/13/18 7:25:12 PM
#15:


ChainedRedone posted...
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.

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Wetterdew
12/13/18 7:25:51 PM
#16:


D. That is a dumb opinion.

Defense attorneys aren't there just to prevent people from getting ruled guilty. That's not the only reason we need them.

We also need them even when we know somebody is guilty, to make sure the justice system works properly and that the guilty party gets a fair punishment.
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NotWhiteNinja
12/13/18 7:26:21 PM
#17:


ChainedRedone posted...
NotWhiteNinja posted...
If not, why are lawyers any different? They're doing the same thing, just in a different way. Furthermore, whereas the accomplice is likely doing it just as "part of the team" or "to help their mate", the lawyer is doing it purely for financial gain - arguably making it even worse.


That's literally their job. The whole point of the justice system.


If the accomplice helping cover it up is paid to do so, at that point the coverup becomes *their* job. At this point should they no longer be held responsible?

And if not, once again - why is a lawyer any different?
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Dash_Harber
12/13/18 7:26:45 PM
#18:


Big fucking Deny. that is not how the legal system works. They are not there to help them win, they are there to make sure their rights are protected and that the trial is fair. What you are proposing shows a complete ignorance of how the whole system works.

Even if we pretend that the entire system is wrong, then you have to actually prove that someone knowingly did it, which is even more ridiculous.
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edededdy
12/13/18 7:27:29 PM
#19:


this is literally the plot of Ace Attorney spirit of justice
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NotWhiteNinja
12/13/18 7:29:05 PM
#20:


edededdy posted...
this is literally the plot of Ace Attorney spirit of justice


I've played that, and while I loved the game, I entirely disagree with that point - although I will note a huge difference in my stance, specifically that Kh'urain's law does not include a "knowingly" requirement.

I'm in much more agreement with the point made in the final case of AA2, and to a lesser extent (although with the roles reversed) in the third case of AA1, that the truth is the goal, not blindly defending your client no matter what. Limiting such a law to "knowingly" allows for that.
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DarkRoast
12/13/18 7:29:26 PM
#21:


D obviously

An attorney serving your best interests is the most fundamental of legal rights.
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Dash_Harber
12/13/18 7:30:29 PM
#22:


NotWhiteNinja posted...

I'm in much more agreement with the point made in the final case of AA2, that the truth is the goal, not blindly defending your client no matter what.


But, again, neither of those are the point. The point is ensure a fair trial and protect the rights of the accused.
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Cornmuffins
12/13/18 7:32:20 PM
#23:


lmao
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Tyranthraxus
12/13/18 7:32:20 PM
#24:


Criminals are entitled to due process and lawyers shouldn't be punished for providing it.
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industrializeit
12/13/18 7:32:44 PM
#25:


It's necessary evil. The whole world could think you did a crime, but you really did not. Would you not deserve a lawyer?
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TrevorBlack79
12/13/18 7:32:56 PM
#26:


This is an incredibly fucking stupid topic.
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DarkRoast
12/13/18 7:33:09 PM
#27:


Lawyers can choose to have themselves replaced by another if they feel they cannot morally allow themselves to defend a client, but only if the court allows it.
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MC_BatCommander
12/13/18 7:33:16 PM
#28:


The constitution guarantees due process and legal counsel, punishing lawyers for defending criminals would be a travesty.
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Forlorn_Ass
12/13/18 7:33:18 PM
#29:


TrevorBlack79 posted...
This is an incredibly fucking stupid topic.

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Tyranthraxus
12/13/18 7:33:40 PM
#30:


Dash_Harber posted...
NotWhiteNinja posted...

I'm in much more agreement with the point made in the final case of AA2, that the truth is the goal, not blindly defending your client no matter what.


But, again, neither of those are the point. The point is ensure a fair trial and protect the rights of the accused.

Prosecutors actually cannot legally pursue a verdict they know to be false, so the truth matters but so does fair treatment of perpetrators.
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Bananana
12/13/18 7:34:04 PM
#31:


That sets a very, very slippery slope
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industrializeit
12/13/18 7:34:15 PM
#32:


All the people that spent decades in prison, then were proven innocent when DNA evidence became a thing. The lawyers likely thought there client was guilty.
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andel
12/13/18 7:34:41 PM
#33:


everyone is entitled to a defense in the united states
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Dash_Harber
12/13/18 7:35:46 PM
#34:


Tyranthraxus posted...
Dash_Harber posted...
NotWhiteNinja posted...

I'm in much more agreement with the point made in the final case of AA2, that the truth is the goal, not blindly defending your client no matter what.


But, again, neither of those are the point. The point is ensure a fair trial and protect the rights of the accused.

Prosecutors actually cannot legally pursue a verdict they know to be false, so the truth matters but so does fair treatment of perpetrators.

Yeah, I was only talking about the defendant's attorney. Of course truth and justice is important, but without rights and due process to protect citizen's rights, truth and justice melt away really, really fucking fast. Case in point, The Terror.
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_Near_
12/13/18 7:36:42 PM
#35:


There is no "100% guilty. There's a litany of different charges that people can be indicted with and various defenses to all of them. Furthermore, there's a process that law enforcement must abide by to successfully apprehend a suspect in order to not violate their rights. The defense attorney assesses all of these.

A defense lawyer's job isn't to judge guilt or innocence, that's the job of the jury. A defense lawyer is there to make sure that their client gets the best representation, whether they have done something wrong or not. And just because they do something wrong, it doesn't mean that they are guilty of the crime that they are being charged with. A defense lawyer makes this distinction.

Sending someone to prison or death row is a very harsh punishment and thus, it would be unfair to have the full weight of the government come down on the individual without someone there to make sure that the prosecution meets their burden of proof. A defense lawyer ensures this.
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Dragon239
12/13/18 7:40:03 PM
#36:


Eh, I can see where the TC is coming from.

In the case of a lawyer knowing that his client is guilty, is a fair trial and judicial process really mutually exclusive with a situation where the evidence of their guilt comes from the defender's lawyer, given the proof is otherwise sufficient?

If an officer were to find and submit a recorded confession absent of duress by the accused, that'd generally be enough to convict.
Why is it that if the accused admits to the lawyer he did it and is recording saying as much, submitting that recording somehow makes it any less of a fair situation with proper due process?
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OctilIery
12/13/18 7:40:04 PM
#37:


Everyone deserves equal representation, guilty or not.

As long as the lawyer doesn't hide evidence or violate the law in other ways, he shouldn't be punished.
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MC_BatCommander
12/13/18 7:51:42 PM
#38:


Dragon239 posted...
Eh, I can see where the TC is coming from.

In the case of a lawyer knowing that his client is guilty, is a fair trial and judicial process really mutually exclusive with a situation where the evidence of their guilt comes from the defender's lawyer, given the proof is otherwise sufficient?

If an officer were to find and submit a recorded confession absent of duress by the accused, that'd generally be enough to convict.
Why is it that if the accused admits to the lawyer he did it and is recording saying as much, submitting that recording somehow makes it any less of a fair situation with proper due process?


There are still a number of ways the lawyer can help the accused, such as working out a deal to reduce jail time or making sure none of their rights were violated in the arrest and subsequent confession.

Defense isn't just going "hey my client ain't guilty!"
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ChainedRedone
12/13/18 7:55:10 PM
#39:


OctilIery posted...
Everyone deserves equal representation, guilty or not.

As long as the lawyer doesn't hide evidence or violate the law in other ways, he shouldn't be punished.


Hide evidence? Lmao what? Why would a lawyer ever admit to inculpatory evidence? So many armchair lawyers on CE.
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MC_BatCommander
12/13/18 7:56:05 PM
#40:


ChainedRedone posted...
OctilIery posted...
Everyone deserves equal representation, guilty or not.

As long as the lawyer doesn't hide evidence or violate the law in other ways, he shouldn't be punished.


Hide evidence? Lmao what? Why would a lawyer ever admit to inculpatory evidence? So many armchair lawyers on CE.


why are you always so antagonistic, chill out man
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FL81
12/13/18 7:56:46 PM
#41:


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Dragon239
12/13/18 7:57:00 PM
#42:


MC_BatCommander posted...
There are still a number of ways the lawyer can help the accused, such as working out a deal to reduce jail time or making sure none of their rights were violated in the arrest and subsequent confession.

Yes. That would be the part where they ensure a fair process.
But why does informing law enforcement that your client literally admitted to the crime and you have it on record suddenly break that? Why does the justice system suddenly turn a blind eye to this situation and in fact consider it injustice if the lawyer were to inform anybody of the fact that his client literally admitted to it?
There's more justice in letting a guilty person go free than go to jail, simply because the process lacked information that the defense knew, or the prosecution was incompetent?
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Solar_Crimson
12/13/18 7:57:48 PM
#43:


Ambience posted...
Everyone is entitled to a defense though. Even scum who rape children or other horrible crimes. It's a pillar of our country's justice system.

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MC_BatCommander
12/13/18 8:06:42 PM
#44:


Dragon239 posted...
MC_BatCommander posted...
There are still a number of ways the lawyer can help the accused, such as working out a deal to reduce jail time or making sure none of their rights were violated in the arrest and subsequent confession.

Yes. That would be the part where they ensure a fair process.
But why does informing law enforcement that your client literally admitted to the crime and you have it on record suddenly break that? Why does the justice system suddenly turn a blind eye to this situation and in fact consider it injustice if the lawyer were to inform anybody of the fact that his client literally admitted to it?
There's more justice in letting a guilty person go free than go to jail, simply because the process lacked information that the defense knew, or the prosecution was incompetent?


Oh I see what you mean, I misunderstood your last post.

That's a pretty highly specific situation. I'd imagine if an attorney had a client's taped confession it would be for no other purpose than entering a guilty plea deal. I can't imagine any right-minded attorney would get a taped confession then try to argue not-guilty, lol.
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ChainedRedone
12/13/18 8:10:35 PM
#45:


MC_BatCommander posted...
ChainedRedone posted...
OctilIery posted...
Everyone deserves equal representation, guilty or not.

As long as the lawyer doesn't hide evidence or violate the law in other ways, he shouldn't be punished.


Hide evidence? Lmao what? Why would a lawyer ever admit to inculpatory evidence? So many armchair lawyers on CE.


why are you always so antagonistic, chill out man


Look at who I'm responding to.
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Dragon239
12/13/18 8:11:53 PM
#46:


I mean, an admission is basically the only way how a lawyer would "knowingly" know his client is guilty.
It being taped was just to highlight how it'd be similar to any confession put forth as evidence. Even if it were unrecorded and he just whispered it in his lawyer's ear, the lawyer would "know" his client is guilty.

It's also the only way we'd know the lawyer knew, excepting like, the lawyer writing somewhere he got an admission, then defended them anyways, and people found that out.
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Kineth
12/13/18 8:12:06 PM
#47:


Vertania posted...
ChainedRedone posted...
That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.

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OctilIery
12/13/18 9:38:21 PM
#48:


ChainedRedone posted...
MC_BatCommander posted...
ChainedRedone posted...
OctilIery posted...
Everyone deserves equal representation, guilty or not.

As long as the lawyer doesn't hide evidence or violate the law in other ways, he shouldn't be punished.


Hide evidence? Lmao what? Why would a lawyer ever admit to inculpatory evidence? So many armchair lawyers on CE.


why are you always so antagonistic, chill out man


Look at who I'm responding to.

Someone correct.
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catboy0_0
12/13/18 10:34:44 PM
#49:


it's not up to them to be able to make that judgement. that's what the justice system is for, so no
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