Current Events > Apparently Kingdom Hearts core fans hates new players to the series.

(+) Yeah! (+)

CyricZ posted...

The other day I learned that the story contained time travel.

Yes, it's also an absolutely terrible implementation of time travel. Also, if you bring that up on a KH board, some smartass will reference Timeless River in KH2, which still involves time travel, but with a less ridiculous and terribly written way.
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DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.
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Nah. If you jump into kingdom hearts and don't know shit and don't say anything, the kh community cannot be toxic because you're not interacting with them.

The problem is people come into kh communities, not knowing shit, acting like the know shit, and then shitting on the story. And then, when people act annoyed, they play the victim card.

Which i've noticed is a pattern among internet communities. People are assholes and share their unsolicited opinions to people who like said thing, and then wonder why the people aren't friendly. This behavior would not make sense in any other context. Go to a bunch of people talking about the bachelor and tell them how dumb that shit is. You'll get a fuck off.
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The time travel aspect of the plot is almost completely harmless. Its not confusing, and it only effects a few things of any significance. For some reason its a meme that the series jumped the shark there, and while it was unexpected and weird at the time, its not nearly as bad as people make it out to be,
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Lol i remember on the KH boards there was a topic that asked to describe thr KH series with one word. I was the first to post so i said "convoluted" and almost everyone attacked me saying its not convoluted and that my IQ must be low for not getting the story. It was funny seeing people meltdown over one word.
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masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

You have no point when the director of the series considers BBS and DDS to be just as important as the numbered entries and not just side games.
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masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

But that excuse doesn't fly anymore what with 1.5 and 2.5. Come up with something original and correct.
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The_Scarecrow posted...

masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

You have no point when the director of the series considers BBS and DDS to be just as important as the numbered entries and not just side games.

Somehow it's not surprising that the guy who got KH's plot into the mess it's in also wants to make up his own rules about what do and do not constitute spinoffs.
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masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

You have no point when the director of the series considers BBS and DDS to be just as important as the numbered entries and not just side games.

Somehow it's not surprising that the guy who got KH's plot into the mess it's in also wants to make up his own rules about what do and do not constitute spinoffs.

They objectively aren't spin-offs.

dave_is_slick posted...

Come up with something original and correct.

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Most of the hate stems from the fact every question asked by new players was asked hundreds of times already, and if new players don't have their questions answered they proceed to attack the core fans and call them elitist assholes.

Back when KH2 released is when it really blew up. People asking multiple questions from 1 and CoM. Basically it all came down to core fans were apparently obligated to answer any and all questions or get attacked and insulted, but new players for some reason felt no obligation to play them.

Eventually the KH fanbase said "fuck it, we're not catering to you anymore and we shouldn't have to. You want answers? It's on you, not us."
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Kingdom Hearts 2 was the only time I can remember being embarrassed to play a video game. I was only in high school but I was like Im way too old for these edgy anime guys in raincoats reading off soliloquies about darkness and hearts. It completely put me off of everything to do with KH, which is sad because I do think the first one is a neat little game when it isnt preoccupied with original characters delivering embarrassing dialogue
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KillerSlaw posted...

I don't blame them

I hate almost everyone I meet in the MGS community who started with MGS 4 or V and talk like they know what they are talking about but know absolutely fuck all.

I dont know. When MGS came out there was a vocal minority that didnt like people who hadnt played the originals.
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dave_is_slick posted...

They objectively aren't spin-offs.

Are you one of those people that doesn't realize that Scrubs: Med School (aka 'Season 9' after it flopped and they had to try and push the DVD sales) was a spinoff?

When you have a different core cast, different plot, and different setting / timetable than the main series, it's a spinoff, and is not something that should contain plot information vital to the main series. So I'll ask you a few questions. Do the two games you mentioned star Sora, Donald, and Goofy? Do they take place as direct successors timetable-wise to KH2? Are the plots direct continuations of the events of KH2?

Perhaps you can provide examples of other venerated series where such vital information is handled by series entries that are not designated as part of the main series? Will I suddenly find myself lost in A Song of Ice and Fire if I haven't read Dunk and Egg? How about Harry Potter if I have read Fantastic Beasts? Some examples of other series that do this would be nice, wouldn't want to think that Nomura is just making up his own damn rules of story structure or anything.
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I've only played KH1, 2, and CoM and honestly, after hearing how convoluted the plot became with the later games (with CoM already making the water muddy) I just gave up on the series.
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There was a handy google doc file that i think did a good job explaining all the convoluted mess in the KH story. I just cant seem to find it anymore.
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masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

They objectively aren't spin-offs.

Are you one of those people that doesn't realize that Scrubs: Med School (aka 'Season 9' after it flopped and they had to try and push the DVD sales) was a spinoff?

When you have a different core cast, different plot, and different setting / timetable than the main series, it's a spinoff, and is not something that should contain plot information vital to the main series. So I'll ask you a few questions. Do the two games you mentioned star Sora, Donald, and Goofy? Do they take place as direct successors timetable-wise to KH2? Are the plots direct continuations of the events of KH2?

Perhaps you can provide examples of other venerated series where such vital information is handled by series entries that are not designated as part of the main series? Will I suddenly find myself lost in A Song of Ice and Fire if I haven't read Dunk and Egg? How about Harry Potter if I have read Fantastic Beasts? Some examples of other series that do this would be nice, wouldn't want to think that Nomura is just making up his own damn rules of story structure or anything.

I mean the fact that the games include vital information for the next mainline game sorta already implies they aren't spinoffs like youve listed.
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Basically to avoid people like angry joe who played uncharted 4 but no other games in the series. He says he will be playing kingdom hearts 3 even tho he hasnt played any of the others.

Inferno Dive Dragoon posted...

I've only played KH1, 2, and CoM and honestly, after hearing how convoluted the plot became with the later games (with CoM already making the water muddy) I just gave up on the series.

Same (minus CoM, tried playing it twice and couldn't get into it, I hate card-battle games). The more I heard about the series post-KH2, the less interested I became. There was a time that I nearly bought a PS3 under the assumption that Final Fantasy 15 and KH3 would make the system must-buys. There was a big KH3 reveal at E3 some years back that just looked like recycled PS2 footage, and it was at that point that my interest in the continuation of the series bottomed out completely.

Apart from the diehard fanbase (the size of which I honestly have no idea), the Disney worlds angle is the only thing that's going to sell this game to anyone on the fence. I know this is obvious at face-value, but honestly, this was one of KH2's weaker areas over 1. The PotC section was particularly glaring - the graphics were tremendously impressive for the time, but other than that, it was largely shot-for-shot rehashes of the movies with bargain-bin voice acting and little or no music. They're really gonna have to step up the charm of the Disney sections of the game imo.

I'm not sure why I have such an interest in this topic, because I have no intention of buying KH3. I guess I'm just lamenting over a series I used to love.
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masterpug53 posted...

When you have a different core cast, different plot, and different setting / timetable than the main series, it's a spinoff, and is not something that should contain plot information vital to the main series. So I'll ask you a few questions. Do the two games you mentioned star Sora, Donald, and Goofy? Do they take place as direct successors timetable-wise to KH2? Are the plots direct continuations of the events of KH2?

DDD is a sequel to KH2 and stars Sora and Riku and sets the stage for KH3.
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PerseusRad posted...

masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

They objectively aren't spin-offs.

Are you one of those people that doesn't realize that Scrubs: Med School (aka 'Season 9' after it flopped and they had to try and push the DVD sales) was a spinoff?

When you have a different core cast, different plot, and different setting / timetable than the main series, it's a spinoff, and is not something that should contain plot information vital to the main series. So I'll ask you a few questions. Do the two games you mentioned star Sora, Donald, and Goofy? Do they take place as direct successors timetable-wise to KH2? Are the plots direct continuations of the events of KH2?

Perhaps you can provide examples of other venerated series where such vital information is handled by series entries that are not designated as part of the main series? Will I suddenly find myself lost in A Song of Ice and Fire if I haven't read Dunk and Egg? How about Harry Potter if I have read Fantastic Beasts? Some examples of other series that do this would be nice, wouldn't want to think that Nomura is just making up his own damn rules of story structure or anything.

I mean the fact that the games include vital information for the next mainline game sorta already implies they aren't spinoffs like youve listed.

But therein lies the flaw: if the writers were competent, this information would have been in the main series games. It paints a very clear picture that they're just making shit up as they go when vital plot information is scattered over several games outside of the main series, and is why KH's plot has rightfully become a punchline in the gaming community.
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I am still of the belief the plot isnt particularly convoluted as long as you play the games, which is what KH fans want you to do. It sounds weird when trying to summarize it, but it is generally dispersed in easy to understand ways throughout the games.

Also masterpug, the collections are there so everything you need to know is in one place. All the games are easily available on PS4, except two being cutscene movies pretty much. So why is it still such a sin if its easily accessible?
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The only KH game that you really don't need to play or watch is Coded. It has minimal plot relevance to the overall story. It mostly hints to the data implanted in Sora having some significance, everything else is basically irrelevant.

BBS introduces us to the Primary antagonist, Xehanort, and details his goals, as well as introduces us to Terra, Aqua, and Ven which are important to the series as a whole, considering Xehanort possessed Terra, and eventually getting amnesia, later becoming Ansem SoD and Xemnas. Aqua getting lost in the Realm of Darkness, and Vens heart residing within Sora, as well as TAV being instrumental for Sora, Riku, and Kairi being able to wield keyblades.

358/2 days gives us detailed events involving Roxas time in the Organization and introduces us to Organization XIII. It also shows the events leading to Roxas betraying the Organization.

Dream Drop Distance takes place immediately after KH2 where Sora and Riku are being tested to become Keyblade Masters, and explains the true goal of Organization XIII, which leads directly to KH3.

They all have information relevant to the overall plot and characters. It's only convulted because people only think the necessary games are 1, 2, and 3.
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masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

They objectively aren't spin-offs.

Are you one of those people that doesn't realize that Scrubs: Med School (aka 'Season 9' after it flopped and they had to try and push the DVD sales) was a spinoff?

When you have a different core cast, different plot, and different setting / timetable than the main series, it's a spinoff, and is not something that should contain plot information vital to the main series. So I'll ask you a few questions. Do the two games you mentioned star Sora, Donald, and Goofy? Do they take place as direct successors timetable-wise to KH2? Are the plots direct continuations of the events of KH2?

Perhaps you can provide examples of other venerated series where such vital information is handled by series entries that are not designated as part of the main series? Will I suddenly find myself lost in A Song of Ice and Fire if I haven't read Dunk and Egg? How about Harry Potter if I have read Fantastic Beasts? Some examples of other series that do this would be nice, wouldn't want to think that Nomura is just making up his own damn rules of story structure or anything.

That's a lot of words for being wrong.
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PerseusRad posted...

So why is it still such a sin if its easily accessible?

I brought this up earlier and it was conveniently ignored...
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dave_is_slick posted...

That's a lot of words for being wrong.

About the rebuttal I'd expect from someone who misuses the word 'objectively.'
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Megaman50100 posted...

ImAMarvel posted...

I need to get caught up on the games but the plot went to absolute shit after Chain of Memories anyway so I'm not sure what the big deal is.

This. The plot is convoluted and unimportant to enjoy the series. Anyone who says the plot doesn't make sense is wrong and simply didn't play the games, but anyone who says the plot is worth the effort is also a liar.

This is pretty accurate
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masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

That's a lot of words for being wrong.

About the rebuttal I'd expect from someone who misuses the word 'objectively.'

I didn't. You are factually wrong. This isn't up for debate. I know you want to maintain your delusion but facts are facts.
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The game's story is convoluted, regardless of whether you're able to take events at face value. Remember, this is the series that made an entire game just to explain a character's betrayal, and did so using a clone, a psychic link with the original, and a weird pseudo-masturbatory love interest. The same series that can't even do time travel without adding a layer of dreams to it. The same series that gave a blank journal a heart just so they could go inside the digital representation of it, all to explain how the main character "got his memory back." The same series that thought it was a good idea to name "a" weapon and "the" weapon in such a way that they're pronounced exactly the same.

It doesn't matter how well the events can be followed at face value. It is absolutely convoluted.

Still fun though, imo

dave_is_slick posted...

masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

That's a lot of words for being wrong.

About the rebuttal I'd expect from someone who misuses the word 'objectively.'

I didn't. You are factually wrong. This isn't up for debate. I know you want to maintain your delusion but facts are facts.

So a game series that increasingly sounds like it was written by a 15-year-old is being defended by a person who argues like a 15-year-old. Seems to add up.
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I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.
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There's gotta only be like 37 people that give a shit about this.

Someone at my wife's college actually did some report on the plot of Kingdom Hearts in one of her classes and she said it was the most fucked up story she'd ever heard and she thought something was wrong with the guy until I told her that no he's probably just telling the truth and I hesrd the story was convoluted.
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masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

masterpug53 posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

That's a lot of words for being wrong.

About the rebuttal I'd expect from someone who misuses the word 'objectively.'

I didn't. You are factually wrong. This isn't up for debate. I know you want to maintain your delusion but facts are facts.

So a game series that increasingly sounds like it was written by a 15-year-old is being defended by a person who argues like a 15-year-old. Seems to add up.

I don't get why the fact that you're wrong is so earth-shattering to you. To the point where you ignored the fact that your other complaint about them being all over the place is also wrong. Did these games somehow physically hurt you?
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masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

You have no point when the director of the series considers BBS and DDS to be just as important as the numbered entries and not just side games.

Somehow it's not surprising that the guy who got KH's plot into the mess it's in also wants to make up his own rules about what do and do not constitute spinoffs.

Theyre not spinoffs. Some of these spinoffs star main characters from the first game and will lead up to the events of KH3. If youre going to apply this logic to Kingdom Hearts, then youll have to apply it to other series as well. If you decided to apply this to Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker, then your logic is flawed because PW is important to the events of MGSV. And like others have said, these spinoffs are in the collections for the PS4 and are part of the official story recap so theyre obviously just as important as the numbered entries.
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The_Scarecrow posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

masterpug53 posted...

DarkChozoGhost posted...

masterpug53 posted...

The_Scarecrow posted...

A YouTube reviewer called Angry Joe will be starting with KH3 and has said that if he doesnt understand the story, he will hold that as a negative against the game.

As well he should. Spinoff games, movies, novels, etc are meant for side stories that, while they may enhance the plot and understanding of the main series, should not be essential to said overall plot. If I go straight from Two Towers into Return of the King and am suddenly lost plot-wise because I didn't watch two straight-to-home-video side movies and listen to an exclusive audio book and play a video game tie-in released on the Atari Lynx, I would be rightfully pissed off and lose interest.

So as far as I know from playing the main entries in the series, Xehanort / Xemnas as they appear in KH 2 are the true main antagonists of the series. If this particular plot point goes any deeper than this without being first revealed in KH 3 (spoiler alert: I already know it does.), then the series has quite simply failed to properly deliver this aspect of the narrative.

Birth By Sleep and DDD aren't side stories though. BBS is KH0. The're just as important as 1 and 2.

That doesn't refute my point, it actually helps it. They should have been main series entries if they're so important, or they should have had their stories woven in as part of a main series title, like Roxas' intro in KH2 (another format option would have been FF 8's Laguna flashbacks). If they're too complex to fit into a main series game, then the creator / writers need to learn how to edit the fluff.

There's really no excusing shuffling vital overarching plot points into side games to the point where numbered entry-only players will be lost, and if I'm being perfectly honest, I hope KH3 gets critically eviscerated for it.

You have no point when the director of the series considers BBS and DDS to be just as important as the numbered entries and not just side games.

Somehow it's not surprising that the guy who got KH's plot into the mess it's in also wants to make up his own rules about what do and do not constitute spinoffs.

Theyre not spinoffs. Some of these spinoffs star main characters from the first game and will lead up to the events of KH3. If youre going to apply this logic to Kingdom Hearts, then youll have to apply it to other series as well. If you decided to apply this to Metal Gear Solid Peace Walker, then your logic is flawed because PW is important to the events of MGSV. And like others have said, these spinoffs are in the collections for the PS4 and are part of the official story recap so theyre obviously just as important as the numbered entries.

Here's the the thing though, they might not be spinoffs but they should be. If a series is numbered 1-2-3 you should reasonably expect a coherent story that only requires 1-2-3 to understand. The 4-5 games that come between shouldn't be required to pay, especially considering theyre exclusives on like 4 different handhelds in their original release.
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I do wonder how well Kingdom Hearts 3 will review and sell.

I never got into it and it doesn't sound like it's worth playing a bunch of old ass PS2 and handheld games for hundreds of hours to get into it so I doubt I will.

The thing that's unique to Kingdom Hearts are all of the Disney characters. If this has any mainstream appeal at all it's because of that. Of course a whole bunch of new people are going to start with KH3. It's a AAA JRPG with Disney characters. It's going to happen.

If this was some other long running JRPG series with original characters you would not see nearly as many new people asking questions about it. People are curious because of Disney. Disney is a franchise with an extremely broad appeal with casuals but yet you need a hardcore level of knowledge from a series that spans 3 generations of video games. It's at odds with itself.
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Darmik posted...

I never got into it and it doesn't sound like it's worth playing a bunch of old ass PS2 and handheld games for hundreds of hours to get into it so I doubt I will.

You won't have to. It's apparently going to have a video that catches people up.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

I never got into it and it doesn't sound like it's worth playing a bunch of old ass PS2 and handheld games for hundreds of hours to get into it so I doubt I will.

You won't have to. It's apparently going to have a video that catches people up.

Good luck with that. I watched a recap on YouTube the other day and even keeping it to the facts the story is bar shit insane.
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codey posted...

I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.

They aren't spin-offs because they hold absolutely vital information. Your argument that they are not aptly named holds merit, however, that is irrelevant to the fact that they are not spinoffs.
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AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.

They aren't spin-offs because they hold absolutely vital information. Your argument that they are not aptly named holds merit, however, that is irrelevant to the fact that they are not spinoffs.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that they SHOULD be spinoffs, and in any other series they WOULD be (except MGS, which caused me to be lost in V). Sure, they put the vital bitsnin the rereleases, but if I played 1 and 2 over a decade ago I should be able to play 3 without missing any vital info.

Basically, they're named like spinoffs, put on different handhelds like spinoffs, have different gameplay like spinoffs, but the story isn't treated like spinoffs. They way they're handled absolutely makes them look like spinoffs to newcomers of the series.
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codey posted...

AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.

They aren't spin-offs because they hold absolutely vital information. Your argument that they are not aptly named holds merit, however, that is irrelevant to the fact that they are not spinoffs.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that they SHOULD be spinoffs, and in any other series they WOULD be (except MGS, which caused me to be lost in V). Sure, they put the vital bitsnin the rereleases, but if I played 1 and 2 over a decade ago I should be able to play 3 without missing any vital info.

Basically, they're named like spinoffs, put on different handhelds like spinoffs, have different gameplay like spinoffs, but the story isn't treated like spinoffs. They way they're handled absolutely makes them look like spinoffs to newcomers of the series.

That's fair.
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AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.

They aren't spin-offs because they hold absolutely vital information. Your argument that they are not aptly named holds merit, however, that is irrelevant to the fact that they are not spinoffs.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that they SHOULD be spinoffs, and in any other series they WOULD be (except MGS, which caused me to be lost in V). Sure, they put the vital bitsnin the rereleases, but if I played 1 and 2 over a decade ago I should be able to play 3 without missing any vital info.

Basically, they're named like spinoffs, put on different handhelds like spinoffs, have different gameplay like spinoffs, but the story isn't treated like spinoffs. They way they're handled absolutely makes them look like spinoffs to newcomers of the series.

That's fair.

At the same time, it's not like I really have a dog in the fight. I tried playing the rereleases but hates the gameplay and put them away lol
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codey posted...

AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

AdviceMan posted...

codey posted...

I'm kind of with the guy that called all the handheld games spin offs. The big issue is that they're calling the new one #3, when there's been like 4 or 5 (I really don't know) games between 2 and 3. If you number a series 1-2-3, I should be able to play 1-2-3 and get all the story info in a way that's complete and makes sense. All of the other games should only enhance that main story. They shouldn't have plot info that's absolutely vital, especially if they're all on a different random handheld system that's hard to get a hold of.

They aren't spin-offs because they hold absolutely vital information. Your argument that they are not aptly named holds merit, however, that is irrelevant to the fact that they are not spinoffs.

Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that they SHOULD be spinoffs, and in any other series they WOULD be (except MGS, which caused me to be lost in V). Sure, they put the vital bitsnin the rereleases, but if I played 1 and 2 over a decade ago I should be able to play 3 without missing any vital info.

Basically, they're named like spinoffs, put on different handhelds like spinoffs, have different gameplay like spinoffs, but the story isn't treated like spinoffs. They way they're handled absolutely makes them look like spinoffs to newcomers of the series.

That's fair.

At the same time, it's not like I really have a dog in the fight. I tried playing the rereleases but hates the gameplay and put them away lol

My problem is this mentality.

"This story makes no sense!"
"Then play the games."
"No."
"Then shut the fuck up."
"Omg why is this fanbase so toxic".

Sure, you can argue that KH isn't an accessible franchise historically (it is now), and you can even argue that you don't care about the story, but nobody wants to hear the opinion of someone who does not have all the information through willing negligence comment on the story.

That being said, the story is convoluted.
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In my experience most video game fandoms are toxic, so I don't know why anyone would ever complain about that. It's definitely not exclusive to Kingdom Hearts (maybe they're particularly bad, though. I dunno). Personally, I don't get it. Like, Fire Emblem fans despise the new games and players that have only played them, but I sincerely doubt they'd be getting Fire Emblem games at the rate they are without Awakening.

Gatekeeping with something as widely accessable as video games is just weird.
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codey posted...

Basically, they're named like spinoffs, put on different handhelds like spinoffs, have different gameplay like spinoffs, but the story isn't treated like spinoffs. They way they're handled absolutely makes them look like spinoffs to newcomers of the series

This only happened because the Tokyo (main) team got stuck working on Final Fantasy vs XIII so the B (Osaka) team were tasked to keep the franchise going by making the handheld titles.
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For those who wanted to know the plot, a friend of mine found this once.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-9wgOSEG0sqWl9ZQjFrQXpXaEU/view

It's 42 pages LOL.
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