Poll of the Day > why do 95% of all indie games have to be difficult as fuck?

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Aculo
12/06/18 3:21:24 PM
1
so, basically, unless you're a walking simulator, being "indie" is just a another label for "low budget and hard as fuck", ok?

so, i can respect that. if you want to present a stiff challenge based on the faux pretense of just being a "low-budget" game... fine, good, enjoy, ok?

but then, i get shit from my friends, and the indie community in general stating (in many different ways) that the idiot general public only wants big budget "AAA" games and never want to give the indie scene a chance, ok?

the one indie game i really get into, shovel knight, people shit on constantly for being "too easy", and the devs have already said they plan on ramping up the difficulty for the second. oh wonderful, ok?

so, i'm a guy in his mid-30's, and i have a job, a wife and a kid, and i just don't have the time to devote to your hard as fuck game. at least with a larger budget game, i know i'll be able to get through it. but what do i get for buying the AAA, company game? a bunch of shit stating that i'm the death of the indie industry, and that it's people like me who ruin it for younger, hard-working creators, ok?

i'd be more than happy to buy your smaller game you slaved on for the last 4 years while eating nothing buy carpet shavings and leaves, but you made it it too fucking difficult for me to enjoy, ok?

/rant, please feel free to post "git gud" below, ok?
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ok?
MICHALECOLE
12/06/18 3:23:45 PM
2
Maybe its because when they make one thats not as hard people call them walking simulators
TallTamryu
12/06/18 3:24:26 PM
3
Most indie games aren't super hard though? There's a select few that are, but most are just right I'd say. Not too simple, not exactly difficult either.
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ernieforss
12/06/18 3:25:16 PM
4
I just hate that most have to be procedural generated. I can't really practice the level because it keeps changing. I feel like I'm just wasting my time
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Aculo
12/06/18 3:27:14 PM
5
TallTamryu posted...
Most indie games aren't super hard though? There's a select few that are, but most are just right I'd say. Not too simple, not exactly difficult either.

most people who have the time and/or natural skill say this. yes, they are, ok?

the last indie i was playing was hollow knight, which a buddy said was absolutely do-able for me. about 4 hours in, it is very clear that i cannot go any further, unless i put in some serious time to "git gud", ok?
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ok?
Oops_All_Berrys
12/06/18 3:28:47 PM
6
It's a way to artificially increase game length like how old NES games were super hard cuz otherwise you can beat them in an hour.
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Lokarin
12/06/18 3:30:08 PM
7
they're not hard - get good
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PKMNsony
12/06/18 3:36:09 PM
8
TallTamryu posted...
Most indie games aren't super hard though? There's a select few that are, but most are just right I'd say. Not too simple, not exactly difficult either.

I feel this as well. I think people are just too used to how easy and simple triple A games are nowadays.
Aculo
12/06/18 3:43:57 PM
9
Lokarin posted...
they're not hard - get good

Aculo posted...
i like you, lok, but you are f***ing clueless when it comes to anything video game related, ok?

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ok?
Pus_N_Pecans
12/06/18 3:49:05 PM
10
I dont think most indies are that hard and they certainly dont take anywhere near as long these to beat as the average AAA game. Unless the only indie games you play are roguelikes, I just dont agree.

I didnt think a vast majority of Hollow Knight was too hard, but I guess I would still consider the difficulty slightly above average
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Lokarin
12/06/18 3:58:47 PM
11
Aculo posted...
Lokarin posted...
they're not hard - get good

Aculo posted...
i like you, lok, but you are f***ing clueless when it comes to anything video game related, ok?


Do you see the games I eat for breakfast?
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Aculo
12/06/18 4:10:20 PM
12
i don't know what that means, ok?
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ok?
Lokarin
12/06/18 4:10:52 PM
13
Aculo posted...
i don't know what that means, ok?


I play a lot of "supposedly" hard indie games... only a rare few are hard enough for me to need a little time.
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Chewster
12/06/18 4:12:03 PM
14
I don't know if that many (popular) indie games are really that hard, but I will say that I think Super Meat Boy is garbage. I also have yet to really find the appeal in roguelikes
Lokarin
12/06/18 4:15:54 PM
15
Chewster posted...
I don't know if that many (popular) indie games are really that hard, but I will say that I think Super Meat Boy is garbage. I also have yet to really find the appeal in roguelikes


Super Meat Boy? What is this, 2010?
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Chewster
12/06/18 4:18:48 PM
16
I don't know what the newest difficulty-wanking indie game is, so it's the best example I could think of. I guess Hollow Knight is hard according to this topic but at least it doesn't seem like being hard is the whole point of the game like SMB
Lokarin
12/06/18 4:24:49 PM
17
Chewster posted...
I don't know what the newest difficulty-wanking indie game is, so it's the best example I could think of. I guess Hollow Knight is hard according to this topic but at least it doesn't seem like being hard is the whole point of the game like SMB


Well, there's Cloudberry Kingdom, Super Hexagon, Zenzizenzic, Electronic Super Joy, and "supposedly" Titan's Souls (it's not though)
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Chewster
12/06/18 4:27:54 PM
18
Most of those games you listed might as well be as old as SMB. What's wrong with me bringing it up because it's old? People still praise it, even though indies have exploded since 2010 and there are way more interesting and better games out there
BlackScythe0
12/06/18 4:31:24 PM
19
A lot of indie games are call backs to older games. Some consist of dated mechanics that really don't need to be brought back some times. I don't know that I would call it 95% though but I also play a limited variety of genres.
TheWorstPoster
12/06/18 4:44:09 PM
20
Git gud
xjayguyx
12/06/18 4:57:02 PM
21
Dead cells?
Lokarin
12/06/18 5:11:54 PM
22
Chewster posted...
Most of those games you listed might as well be as old as SMB. What's wrong with me bringing it up because it's old? People still praise it, even though indies have exploded since 2010 and there are way more interesting and better games out there


I was just teasing about the SMB; certainly Aculo can provide some examples?
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GanonsSpirit
12/06/18 5:22:33 PM
23
Yeah, that's gonna be a "git gud" from me dawg.
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_AdjI_
12/06/18 5:23:42 PM
24
95% is definitely exaggerating, but I'd guess most of it is in opposition to the mainstream industry trying to cater to broader audiences and moving away from difficult games as a result (see: Monster Hunter World being heavily dumbed down from prior MH games, yet becoming Capcom's best-selling game ever). People look to indie games because that's the only place they can find challenges, so indie developers make challenging games. Having lower budgets also means they can afford to end up with a smaller audience, so catering to a niche market isn't as unappealing as it is for bigger studios.
keyblader1985
12/06/18 5:27:27 PM
25
Aculo posted...
please feel free to post "git gud" below, ok?

You leave me little recourse.
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DPsx7
12/06/18 7:22:03 PM
26
If you played NES then indies aren't that bad. Really, so many complain that modern games hold your hand too much. Indies are filling holes left by modern games - 2D platformers or shooters. I love 'em. Gungeon, Furi, Nex Machina, Rabi Ribi... Plenty more on the backlog.
GanglyKhan
12/06/18 7:49:24 PM
27
Lokarin posted...
Chewster posted...
I don't know if that many (popular) indie games are really that hard, but I will say that I think Super Meat Boy is garbage. I also have yet to really find the appeal in roguelikes


Super Meat Boy? What is this, 2010?

They're still re-re-releasing it with new content. But I agree, it's not a good game. Dustforce and N+ did Super Meat Boy way better. I think N+ actually predates it by a good year or two in its Flash roots
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Mead
12/06/18 7:51:52 PM
28
I just started playing Getting Over It
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TallTamryu
12/06/18 7:55:52 PM
29
Pus_N_Pecans posted...
I didnt think a vast majority of Hollow Knight was too hard, but I guess I would still consider the difficulty slightly above average

That's what I figured. Most don't ever say it's too hard at all, just a bit challenging sometimes. But that's what makes the whole thing fun. Overall, the game isn't hard though, vast majority of the game isn't.
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Red_Frog
12/06/18 7:56:45 PM
30
@knightoffire55 could teach you how to play on easy mode.
Sahuagin
12/06/18 8:23:08 PM
31
"indie" isn't even a genre, it's more like a platform (it's basically the modern incarnation of PC games).

and there are all kinds of them. probably the ones you're looking at are rogue-likes or something, where being super hard is part of the game.

but not all of them are hard, it just depends which ones you're playing.

Crashlands for example is relatively easy.

Death Road to Canada is medium and only really gets hard if you play the more hardcore modes.

Zachtronics games ARE frickin hard, but one exception is Opus Magnum which is definitely the easiest one. Infinifactory doesn't seem all that hard either, but I haven't finished it.

Knuckle-Cracker games are medium. There are probably extra maps that are insanely hard, but the main campaigns are just medium.

Amplitude games are as easy or hard as you want to make them.

Shovel-Knight was medium/easy.

Hotline Miami was medium/easy (as long as you have patience, if you have zero patience it would be hard I guess).

those are about all I know of. the only truly hard ones are Zachtronics games (some of them, the guy has mathematically proven it's possible to beat, but never bothered to actually try.)
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Mead
12/06/18 8:28:30 PM
32
I think a lot of them are very challenging because they have smaller dev teams and making a game difficult can pad the game time

Look at a game like Donut County, its a lot of fun but not challenging so the whole thing is done in just a few hours. Then you have a game like Dead Cells which is pretty light on content but by making the game challenging and adding replay mechanics the game can be enjoyed for many hours.
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If they drag you through the mud, it doesnt change whats in your blood
Chewster
12/06/18 8:32:52 PM
33
Mead posted...
I think a lot of them are very challenging because they have smaller dev teams and making a game difficult can pad the game time


Not to mention probably a lack of separate playtesters. I don't know how true it is, but I read that older games were so hard in part because they'd often be played by the people who made it, so they didn't have a good concept of difficulty for the average player. I can imagine the same thing might happen on some indies though of course they're probably much more cognizant of the need for QA/testing
Sahuagin
12/06/18 8:35:20 PM
34
Mead posted...
I think a lot of them are very challenging because they have smaller dev teams and making a game difficult can pad the game time

I don't think I really agree with this idea. games can't just arbitrarily be made difficult. difficulty shines a spotlight on the quality of a game's design. only a really well-designed game can be made very difficult without ruining it. (open to counter-examples.)
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Dikitain
12/06/18 8:38:54 PM
35
If you are willing to look, there are some easier Indy games out there (usually the puzzle based ones). I mean part of it could be that I love puzzle games, but I don't have a lot of trouble with most of them.

But yea, a lot of the 2D action games are basically all about the difficulty because they are an homage to the arcade style quarter eating games.
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Pus_N_Pecans
12/06/18 8:40:31 PM
36
Sahuagin posted...
Hotline Miami was medium/easy (as long as you have patience, if you have zero patience it would be hard I guess).

I agree with you on everything but this one. Hotline Miami is definitely hard, and the sequel is crazy hard. The first one is beatable with a bit of patience, but I don't blame anyone who complains that 2 is too hard, because it really is.
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Sahuagin
12/06/18 8:50:29 PM
37
Pus_N_Pecans posted...
I agree with you on everything but this one. Hotline Miami is definitely hard, and the sequel is crazy hard. The first one is beatable with a bit of patience, but I don't blame anyone who complains that 2 is too hard, because it really is.

I was almost going to write "Hotline Miami games", but I haven't finished the second one so I don't know.

But the first one... I guess it's not a good example, because you could argue it as anywhere from easy to hard and I could agree. Patience is key, because if you assume that you can do it without failing a lot, then yeah, you'll think it's hard. Or if you understand that it's just a matter of learning, repetition and memorization, then it's not really hard, it just takes patience.

On the other hand, Zachtronics games for example, I'm not even sure if I am actually capable of completing them. Opus Magnum is the only one where I haven't eventually smacked straight into a brick wall. In most others, I've made it only so far, until it became impossible for me to continue.
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Mead
12/06/18 8:53:10 PM
38
Sahuagin posted...
Mead posted...
I think a lot of them are very challenging because they have smaller dev teams and making a game difficult can pad the game time

I don't think I really agree with this idea. games can't just arbitrarily be made difficult. difficulty shines a spotlight on the quality of a game's design. only a really well-designed game can be made very difficult without ruining it. (open to counter-examples.)


I see what youre saying but pretty much all pre-16 bit games were made difficult due to technical limitations of the time. If the games werent hard they all would have been like five minutes long
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If they drag you through the mud, it doesnt change whats in your blood
DPsx7
12/06/18 9:22:23 PM
39
Pus_N_Pecans posted...
Sahuagin posted...
Hotline Miami was medium/easy (as long as you have patience, if you have zero patience it would be hard I guess).

I agree with you on everything but this one. Hotline Miami is definitely hard, and the sequel is crazy hard. The first one is beatable with a bit of patience, but I don't blame anyone who complains that 2 is too hard, because it really is.


Hard? Try terrible. Worst top down shooter I've ever seen, quit by level 5 and wished I got my money back. All you did was make noise and hope you had enough ammo as things funnel through a door. One of the very few stinkers I couldn't be bothered to finish. Tried on Vita in case that matters.
Dikitain
12/06/18 10:12:16 PM
40
DPsx7 posted...
Hard? Try terrible. Worst top down shooter I've ever seen


Well that explains why you are terrible at it...

It's not a top down shooter, more of a puzzle/stealth/strategy game. If you go in guns a-blazing it is going to whip your ass 12 ways to Sunday. If you try to plan out your moves and avoid alerting the enemies while trying to kill them systematically then it plays a lot more appropriate. Most times you want to avoid the guns and go for melee weapons.

The game plays more like a fast paced Metal Gear then Smash TV.
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Mead
12/06/18 10:14:30 PM
41
DPsx7 posted...
Pus_N_Pecans posted...
Sahuagin posted...
Hotline Miami was medium/easy (as long as you have patience, if you have zero patience it would be hard I guess).

I agree with you on everything but this one. Hotline Miami is definitely hard, and the sequel is crazy hard. The first one is beatable with a bit of patience, but I don't blame anyone who complains that 2 is too hard, because it really is.


Hard? Try terrible. Worst top down shooter I've ever seen, quit by level 5 and wished I got my money back. All you did was make noise and hope you had enough ammo as things funnel through a door. One of the very few stinkers I couldn't be bothered to finish. Tried on Vita in case that matters.


King of Toilet Opinions
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If they drag you through the mud, it doesnt change whats in your blood
Kyuubi4269
12/06/18 10:17:36 PM
42
ernieforss posted...
I just hate that most have to be procedural generated. I can't really practice the level because it keeps changing. I feel like I'm just wasting my time

You're wasting your time if you're just memorising the levels, yes. What you're supposed to do is learn the mechanics so you're at home anywhere.
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SunWuKung420
12/06/18 10:41:04 PM
43
Git gud!
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Help is coming
Aculo
12/07/18 10:03:29 AM
44
SunWuKung420 posted...
Git gud!

lol despite my issues, i know i'm better than this old man, ok?
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ok?
coinstarcad
12/07/18 10:08:12 AM
45
Use a speedhack to slow shovel knight down by 10%.
Aculo
12/07/18 10:08:32 AM
46
so, as requested, here's a short list of the games i'm interested in playing, but have a feeling won't have the time to "get gud" enough to see them to their end, ok?

DEAD CELLS
ENTER THE GUNGEON
HYPER LIGHT DRIFTER
CELESTE
THE MESSENGER
BATTLE CHEF BRIGADE
BLOSSOM TALES: THE SLEEPING KING
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ok?
Aculo
12/07/18 10:09:02 AM
47
coinstarcad posted...
Use a speedhack to slow shovel knight down by 10%.

i'm actually fine at shovel knight, ok?
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ok?
PK_Spam
12/07/18 10:10:42 AM
48
Chewster posted...
I don't know what the newest difficulty-wanking indie game is, so it's the best example I could think of. I guess Hollow Knight is hard according to this topic but at least it doesn't seem like being hard is the whole point of the game like SMB

Hollow Knight is hard in the sense that you need to learn the boss fights, and the only way to do that is by throwing yourself at it again and again. Once you learn the ins and outs of each boss, and change your setup to match, its only a little above average in difficulty

except for the DLC content and final bosses
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coinstarcad
12/07/18 10:17:31 AM
49
Aculo posted...
coinstarcad posted...
Use a speedhack to slow shovel knight down by 10%.

i'm actually fine at shovel knight, ok?

No offense! I had no qualms doing that with Ghost 1.0 to get past the bullshit parts.
Miroku_of_Nite1
12/07/18 10:21:02 AM
50
Get good, ok?
Your gimmick is dumb, ok?
Ok, ok?
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