Current Events > What particular statements by Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson make them alt righ

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Ic3Bullet
12/05/18 6:31:08 PM
1
t?
CornBarn
12/05/18 6:36:08 PM
3
n/a
MakoReizei
12/05/18 6:36:40 PM
4
Neither are alt-right, and you don't need to be to think identity politics are a thing
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MrToothHasYou
12/05/18 6:38:44 PM
5
They aren't really alt-right. They are just Cato Institute style bullshitters. Even if libertarianism is dumb it doesn't make it the same as nationalism.
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CloneTheHero
12/05/18 6:39:33 PM
6
i dont know much about shapiro other than he looks like a prepubescent boy.

JP is clearly a centrist tho. anyone with a brain should know this.
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Prestoff
12/05/18 6:40:16 PM
7
Dont know about Jordan Peterson, but Shapiro is not alt right. He is literally old school "muh bootstraps" and "fiscal responsiblity" conservative republican who is anti-trump. Not to mention he is deeply religious, something that greatly differentiates the right from the alt right.
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___b0xxY2J0sHBK
12/05/18 6:40:26 PM
8
Neither are. They just are constantly right and shut down opposing arguments with facts and since those are hard to refute, ad hominem arguments are easier.
darkphoenix181
12/05/18 6:41:22 PM
9
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.
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Paper_Okami
12/05/18 6:42:28 PM
10
these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beKLAuPhISM" data-time="

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AdviceMan
12/05/18 6:43:58 PM
11
I don't know where either of them fall, none of them will ever explicitly identify with the alt-right. But both of them put up nonsensical disingenuous or outright false arguments. Now because I assume they are all smart people, at least as smart as me I assume they are aware that they are wrong. So then looking at the pattern of where their arguments fall, it leads to a general smokescreen for alt-rights to cheer for you. The people that love you are often a great indicator of the type of person you are. You don't get hated by 95% of liberals in existence by being moderately conservative or centrist.
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MARKINGRAM22
12/05/18 6:48:29 PM
12
Prestoff posted...
Dont know about Jordan Peterson, but Shapiro is not alt right. He is literally old school "muh bootstraps" and "fiscal responsiblity" conservative republican who is anti-trump. Not to mention he is deeply religious, something that greatly differentiates the right from the alt right.


Shapiro is obviously not alt right, and is under constant attack by them. That said, Peterson is far more liberal than Shapiro, so it would be even more insane to call him alt right.
MARKINGRAM22
12/05/18 6:49:36 PM
13
AdviceMan posted...
I don't know where either of them fall, none of them will ever explicitly identify with the alt-right. But both of them put up nonsensical disingenuous or outright false arguments. Now because I assume they are all smart people, at least as smart as me I assume they are aware that they are wrong. So then looking at the pattern of where their arguments fall, it leads to a general smokescreen for alt-rights to cheer for you. The people that love you are often a great indicator of the type of person you are. You don't get hated by 95% of liberals in existence by being moderately conservative or centrist.


Their are riots by the left when liberals give speeches now.
MARKINGRAM22
12/05/18 6:52:50 PM
14
darkphoenix181 posted...
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.


This isn't true. He refuses to use compelled language by law, and will call a transman a man and vice versa. He said he is hesitant on the 2 million other genders, thinks it is mostly just leftist identity politics(pretty much is), but hasn't even run into that situation if I remember right.
COVxy
12/05/18 6:53:30 PM
15
Jordan Peterson most certainly is playing to his audience, though the main reason for this perception is the alt-right's clear support of him in lieu of any other authority figure.
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AdviceMan
12/05/18 6:57:59 PM
16
MARKINGRAM22 posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.


This isn't true. He refuses to use compelled language by law, and will call a transman a man and vice versa. He said he is hesitant on the 2 million other genders, thinks it is mostly just leftist identity politics(pretty much is), but hasn't even run into that situation if I remember right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WHxpF1Noe4" data-time="


lmao that's not true.
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PleaseClap
12/05/18 7:01:34 PM
17
AdviceMan posted...
MARKINGRAM22 posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.


This isn't true. He refuses to use compelled language by law, and will call a transman a man and vice versa. He said he is hesitant on the 2 million other genders, thinks it is mostly just leftist identity politics(pretty much is), but hasn't even run into that situation if I remember right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WHxpF1Noe4" data-time="


lmao that's not true.

Something something context something something lib

Just getting that inevitable response out of the way
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Holy_Pumpkin
12/05/18 7:04:10 PM
18
PleaseClap posted...
AdviceMan posted...
MARKINGRAM22 posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.


This isn't true. He refuses to use compelled language by law, and will call a transman a man and vice versa. He said he is hesitant on the 2 million other genders, thinks it is mostly just leftist identity politics(pretty much is), but hasn't even run into that situation if I remember right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WHxpF1Noe4" data-time="


lmao that's not true.

Something something context something something lib

Just getting that inevitable response out of the way

But this is under the context that it is FORCED language

ffs...
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darkphoenix181
12/05/18 7:07:21 PM
19
Anyways, point was, does not calling a trans person the preferred pronoun make you alt right automatically?
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AdviceMan
12/05/18 7:07:44 PM
20
Holy_Pumpkin posted...
PleaseClap posted...
AdviceMan posted...
MARKINGRAM22 posted...
darkphoenix181 posted...
I think Peterson said white privilege is not real.
Also he says women aren't discriminated in the job place they way feminists try to get you to believe.

I think just based on these two thoughts many call him a nazi.

Also he refuses to call trans people by their prrferred identity.


This isn't true. He refuses to use compelled language by law, and will call a transman a man and vice versa. He said he is hesitant on the 2 million other genders, thinks it is mostly just leftist identity politics(pretty much is), but hasn't even run into that situation if I remember right.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WHxpF1Noe4" data-time="


lmao that's not true.

Something something context something something lib

Just getting that inevitable response out of the way

But this is under the context that it is FORCED language

ffs...


There's the problem.

1. The law that he's famous for being so against ended up not doing what he was afraid it would do. AKA he started crying about nothing.

2. He detests the language, and therefore he has shown how he really feels.

3. Him being against the law is fine, even though he was wrong, but there's a difference between I'm not gonna be a mouthpiece for any language vs language I detest.
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Hop103
12/05/18 7:09:14 PM
21
None of them, Shapiro is probably hard L though, which even then is not extremist.
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Blue_Dream87
12/05/18 7:18:57 PM
22
They're not alt right, but they're at the start of the libertarian/skeptic > alt-right pipeline. They lather up some anti-sjw rhetoric with some conspiracy theories that the alt-right runs with.
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s0nicfan
12/05/18 7:22:19 PM
23
Peterson has a massive number, if not every, lecture of his posted online. He's challenged people to find a single instance of him mis-gendering a student of his in the past when they try to nail him for being bigoted, and nobody ever has, because he doesn't, because that isn't his issue. Outside of the relatively recent "cultural marxism is code for anti semitic" meme that people have been trying to push, he's pretty much center-left.

Shapiro being "alt-right" is even more baffling since he's a relatively orthodox Jewish never-trumper.

In both cases, it's a pretty clear the goal is "destroy their reputation so people don't listen to them".
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Antifar
12/05/18 7:27:33 PM
24
I don't think Peterson is himself some sort of alt-righter, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that folks with Maga hats might flock to him, given that so much of his shtick focuses on the importance of hierarchies and how "postmodern neomarxists" (read: SJWs) are undermining society by doing away with some of those hierarchies.

Shapiro is a racist of the sort you'd normally find in a YouTube comments section, but he's not an anti-Semite, so he has that going for him.
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MARKINGRAM22
12/05/18 7:31:16 PM
25
s0nicfan posted...
Peterson has a massive number, if not every, lecture of his posted online. He's challenged people to find a single instance of him mis-gendering a student of his in the past when they try to nail him for being bigoted, and nobody ever has, because he doesn't, because that isn't his issue. Outside of the relatively recent "cultural marxism is code for anti semitic" meme that people have been trying to push, he's pretty much center-left.

Shapiro being "alt-right" is even more baffling since he's a relatively orthodox Jewish never-trumper.

In both cases, it's a pretty clear the goal is "destroy their reputation so people don't listen to them".


Really the reason they get so much hate is that they are good at debating and most leftists can't go beyond emotional arguments and false labels. There are so many ridiculous and extreme people on the right that get a pass cause they are comical in their arguments and don't draw the people these two do. I disagree a lot with shapiro on social stuff, religion, and I'm more in the middle Israel/Palestine, but he is obviously a great debater.
hollow_shrine
12/05/18 7:42:32 PM
26
Neither is Alt. Right, but both of them advocate a traditionalist interpretation of gender that parallels the Alt. Right and both are vocally skeptical of the left's efforts to reorganize culture to suit a more diverse (gender, sex, sexuality, class) population.

Pete has a bad habit of not staying in his lane when it comes to academic disciplines outside of psychology, can be a bit of a diva, and does this really obnoxious thing where he lays out a bunch of observable truths about the world that lead audiences in a certain rhetorical direction, but then he leaves things there without synthesizing a conclusion for people to analyze and people naturally just gravitate to the simplest conclusion available often a hammer instead of a sickle.

Ultimately neither has a rock solid basis on which to dismiss their the left's push towards more inclusive policies/culture.
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hollow_shrine
12/05/18 7:58:56 PM
28
Godnorgosh posted...
But debate has almost nothing to do with who is right and almost everything to do with persuasion and the way in which you present your case, which is why it's traditionally been the domain of sophists and rhetoricians.

Very true. Look in the comment sections of these 'debates' and you'll realize culturally these are just two people arguing. No one leans anything there and even the debater's positions don't further mature or evolve in nuance. Because of that it's often more informative to read their perspectives and try to produce the best version of each sides arguments. Or watch a debate with more formally organized rules where the purpose is not to 'win' but to craft the best solution to a problem.
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Dash_Harber
12/05/18 8:01:29 PM
29
For Jordan Peterson; his reliance on labelling things as a conspiracy of 'Cultural Marxists' and his recent comments on Hitler, in particular, his horrible misunderstanding of the rise of the Nazis.
Grischnak
12/05/18 8:11:37 PM
30
Don't alt right sites tend to shit talk both of them? Like viciously so?
darkphoenix181
12/05/18 10:43:40 PM
31
Godnorgosh posted...
But debate has almost nothing to do with who is right and almost everything to do with persuasion and the way in which you present your case, which is why it's traditionally been the domain of sophists and rhetoricians.


Debate is about persuading people you are right. Because you don't usually debate indisputable facts since they are...you know indisputable.
By saying "debate has almost nothing to do with who is right" you are saying you already have been persuaded to a side in the debate and don't care that the guy arguing for your perspective cannot counter the points thrown at him.

That is ultimately what debate is about. You take a premise and you take it to test. If a guy is unskilled, sure he will likely fail to defend the premise.
However, if a skilled champion fails to defend the premise, perhaps the premise indeed is not right.
And yet if a person sees the premise being weak and easily shaken and they themselves can't counter the points but STILL thinks that premise is right...well that is not logical.
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PesticideDream
12/06/18 1:31:56 AM
33
I barely know anything about the guy, I've only heard him talk once on Joe Rogan's show. He clearly had some views that don't vibe with extreme left politics, and that usually puts you directly in the "alt-right" category because it's easier to do that than actually debate any of his views.

Edit: by "the guy", I mean JP. I don't know anything about Shapiro or care to know.
iClockwork
12/06/18 1:32:34 AM
34
Idgaf about them supposedly being "alt-right." They're both idiots regardless.

Ben Shapiro's entire schtick is seting up a false premise then acting smug when some first year college student doesn't identify it.

Jordan Peterson said that one time he drank a cup of apple cidar it caused a reaction that made him stay awake for one month. He's also spineless. He will setup all these arguments that point to a conclusion then when you ask him if <X> is the conclusion he'll back out and say, "i'm not saying that." He never allows himself to be pinned to a position so he can weasel his way out and leave it up to the imagination of his followers.
ultimate reaver
12/06/18 1:33:54 AM
35
Shapiro and Peterson are gateways into actual alt-right stuff, but as far as their actual political positions I wouldn't call them that. Shapiro is your quintessential racist homophobic kill the poor republican who has been around far longer than the current Tea Party-stemming kind. Peterson courts controversy for attention and possible money-making opportunities.
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Shadowplay
12/06/18 1:40:00 AM
36
Neither of them are alt-right. "Alt-right" is a term used by Neo-Nazis like Richard Spencer as a way of masking what they really are, allowing them to ease people into the ideology.
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Esrac
12/06/18 1:57:43 AM
37
Grischnak posted...
Don't alt right sites tend to shit talk both of them? Like viciously so?


Last I checked, yes. The alt-right doesn't tend to like either of them.

For example, last I read, Shapiro has gotten more anti-Semitic harassment than any other journalist. Most of which seems to come from the alt-right Trump supporters.

Saying they're gateways to the alt-right suggests that one is probably conflating the alt-right with typical conservatives and anti-sjw internet folks. Neither of which requires a positive position on white ethnic nationalism in the way being alt-right does.
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Alphamon
12/06/18 1:58:04 AM
38
JP isn't, but Ben probably is.

https://www.creators.com/read/ben-shapiro/07/10/obamas-race-war

here's a piece where he writes that Obama's leniency towards black and hispanic criminals would cause them to attack white people and start a race war.
ultimate reaver
12/06/18 2:11:35 AM
39
Alphamon posted...
JP isn't, but Ben probably is.

https://www.creators.com/read/ben-shapiro/07/10/obamas-race-war

here's a piece where he writes that Obama's leniency towards black and hispanic criminals would cause them to attack white people and start a race war.


He's also written about the MILITANT GAY AGENDA. Still, that's pretty run of the mill republican stuff.
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scar the 1
12/06/18 2:16:12 AM
40
Peterson had that one exchange where he made excuses for Hitler, and depicted the Nazis as "order" compared to the "chaos" that communism represented.
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Grischnak
12/06/18 2:26:37 PM
41
scar the 1 posted...
Peterson had that one exchange where he made excuses for Hitler, and depicted the Nazis as "order" compared to the "chaos" that communism represented.


I don't really get the issue with either point. Being "order" doesn't mean something is good. I mean, the Galactic Empire is "order". Still super evil though. As for Hitler, explaining his reasoning and why he did the things he did does imply support of his actions. It's like explaining how someone born into poverty and surround by gang culture feels like they have "no choice" to become a drug dealer. Obviously they do have a choice and their actions are wrong but that doesn't mean you can't try and see things from their perspective.
metralo
12/06/18 2:27:39 PM
42
peterson literally thinks women shouldn't be allowed to wear make up in the work place lmao
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scar the 1
12/06/18 3:16:06 PM
43
Grischnak posted...
scar the 1 posted...
Peterson had that one exchange where he made excuses for Hitler, and depicted the Nazis as "order" compared to the "chaos" that communism represented.


I don't really get the issue with either point. Being "order" doesn't mean something is good. I mean, the Galactic Empire is "order". Still super evil though. As for Hitler, explaining his reasoning and why he did the things he did does imply support of his actions. It's like explaining how someone born into poverty and surround by gang culture feels like they have "no choice" to become a drug dealer. Obviously they do have a choice and their actions are wrong but that doesn't mean you can't try and see things from their perspective.

The issue is that it's echoing literal Nazi apologia. It's the kind of obfuscation and rationalization that Hitler's proponents did back then. And since JBP "studied Hitler a lot", he knows this. So he knows exactly what he's doing and who he's appealing to when he's making those kinds of statements.
They might be misguided or well-intentioned if you ignore the context. The context is that JBP is well aware that he's an alt-right Messiah of sorts, and he's well aware of what he's saying and who he's saying it to.
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darkphoenix181
12/06/18 3:25:43 PM
44
metralo posted...
peterson literally thinks women shouldn't be allowed to wear make up in the work place lmao


I don't believe he said that.
He said instead that makeup promotes sexual arousal.

See, he does sometime have a point when he says "no that isn't what I am saying!"

You are literally too lazy to put what he said to a rational scrutiny and interpet "makeup is put on to promote sexual arousal" as it is bad and should never be done.

Literally lacking nuance.
What was his point? That could be debated. What I got from it was he suggested women who want to arouse men shoulsn't complain when hit on.

But instead you claim he literally says or thinks something that is contrary to fact.

https://www.quora.com/Do-you-agree-with-Jordan-Peterson-s-view-on-makeup

Nevertheless, your post showcases why these guys are often called and labeled alt right.

Reaching. A simple statement that could be true but even if it was or not is benign, becomes malicion of thought.

No longer is he a psychologist misguided in stating what he thinks is an evolutionary behavior but now he is a hater of women.
Why?
Because you can read his thoughts.
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metralo
12/06/18 3:30:07 PM
45
at least JP has his legions of cultists to decipher what he himself says because he's too chicken shit to explain it himself. jp always makes an incredibly ridiculous claim, and then says "no thats not what I meant" when someone refutes it. and thats the argument. and then his rabid cultists make up these weird long ass posts like yours to defend him at every waking turn

men do a lot of things in the workplace that is for sexual arousal too. but we don't talk about that because women are always the problem in your alt-right incel brains.
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darkphoenix181
12/06/18 3:43:28 PM
46
metralo posted...
at least JP has his legions of cultists to decipher what he himself says because he's too chicken shit to explain it himself. jp always makes an incredibly ridiculous claim, and then says "no thats not what I meant" when someone refutes it. and thats the argument. and then his rabid cultists make up these weird long ass posts like yours to defend him at every waking turn

men do a lot of things in the workplace that is for sexual arousal too. but we don't talk about that because women are always the problem in your alt-right incel brains.


I didn't defend what he said.

Saying women shouldn't complain when hit on because they put on makeup to promote sexual aousal is not a good thing to say.
It is sexist, but it is not saying women shouldn't wear makeup.

If you want to criticize him, you don't have to lie about what he said...
And yet people do.

That is why he says what he says about "that is not what I am saying" because it literally and logically is not what he is saying.

That is not hard to understand unless you are purposely trying to be malicious.

Btw as above I pointed out 3 things JP says that are unpopular and not politically correct that are fair game to criticism. He literally said those things.
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AlephZero
12/06/18 3:45:28 PM
47
jewish
gets labeled as alt right

:thinking:
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hollow_shrine
12/06/18 3:48:40 PM
48
At the same time that quote about makeup kind of showed his ass, because it kind of laid bare he doesn't really know anything about makeup or why woman (and men) have used it (including lipstick) for centuries.

Ditto with those comments about high heels improving posture and emphasizing one's hips and breasts. Were Peterson aware of the histories of fashion or makeup, he would realize that both of those inventions/fashion trends were male centric until very recently. High heeled boots made their debut in martial horsemanship in Western Europe and wearing them outside of military contexts was akin to men wearing camo or dogtags in casual contexts today. A low key boast of one's martial prowess.

Makeup too, was used much in the way women use it now, to hide skin blemishes, and emphasize certain facial features. Also for the theater, which is likely where most non-wealthy people would have seen it used. Of course it wasn't women who wore make up, but men. Women wearing makeup was provocative and pretty much only seen on prostitutes. Most forms of makeup didn't break into the scene as a cosmetic commodity for women until the 1950's. Then there's the reasons both men and women use make up, which has increasingly less to do with seducing men and more to do with hiding insecurities and cultivating and maintaining a certain self-image.

Peterson doesn't know any of that, or else he would have chosen a more nuanced example, or at least taken pains to avoid reducing the use of makeup in modern society as one of the 'feminine wiles' women wield use to seduce men towards moral peril. These are all things Peterson ought to have known before going down the path he chose, or at the very least he should have known he was on thin ice speculating. But he's not intellectually honest enough to stop himself from talking about things he knows nothing about or even to premise that he might be out of his depth. He's too much of a diva.
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darkphoenix181
12/06/18 3:57:24 PM
49
That is nice, never said he was correct.

The issue is equating his assertion with an unintended meaning like that he wants to ban makeup.

I find no evidence of that suggestion. Do you?

Like the quora guy did some work:

Peterson expressed his views on makeup in an interview with VICE magazine () which in summary form are:

Women wear makeup to simulate or accentuate the markers of sexual arousal e.g. make lips redder.

Makeup, therefore, has the effect of sexualizing the workplace.

This doesnt mean Peterson condones banning of makeup in the workplace; he prefers liberty vs. Maoist forced androgynous look.

Rather, makeup is an indicator that we havent carefully examined the spectrum of sexualized behavior in the workplace and clearly specified the rules of engagement between men and women.


But do you not see the issue with lazy analysis that claims he says things he doesn't, doubles down when called out with assertion of alt right like metralo above lmao, and then gives JP a point to say people maliciously take him out of context?
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hollow_shrine
12/06/18 5:47:58 PM
50
I don't need to put words in Peterson's mouth to find reasons to distrust him. In fact, it's in trying to force him to cop to these ties to reactionary politics that Peterson's detractors most commonly misstep because Peterson's signature rhetorical move is to avoid strong prescriptive claims about anything. So you'll never see him say anything as clear as 'sexual harassment is an inevitable consequence of a modern coed society.' He'll simply lay out a collection observable facts that lead you to that conclusion and then accuse you of being unfair or hysterical if you call him on it. You don't need to straw man Peterson to see a problem here.

I think our skepticism of Peterson should be informed by his dubious commitment to making sure the things he's telling his audience is right and the fact that he doesn't seem to mind that he's being co-opted by fringe conservative ideologies, including members of the Alt right, and getting pulled into their spheres of influence by people who find his arguments and most importantly his respectability useful for the purpose of laundering their own less savory ideas for general consumption. Peterson must know how his public image is changing, yet he does nothing to address those trends or assert that he is not an Alt. Right ally in their culture war against the left. Why?
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Anti-245
12/06/18 5:54:09 PM
51
Nothing in particular makes them alt right movement but their views could be counted(I do count them) as white supremacist since they have an obsession with protecting "the west" and whatever that entails on a given day. Sometimes they'll backtrack on things they said they like if it means protecting "the west"( see their hypocrisy on "free speech").
They are also staunch liberals in that they believe in private property, wage labor and all the works. When Liberialism breaks down, they, as most liberals do, flirt with fascism to protect it.
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darkjedilink
12/06/18 6:00:16 PM
52
AdviceMan posted...
I don't know where either of them fall, none of them will ever explicitly identify with the alt-right. But both of them put up nonsensical disingenuous or outright false arguments. Now because I assume they are all smart people, at least as smart as me I assume they are aware that they are wrong. So then looking at the pattern of where their arguments fall, it leads to a general smokescreen for alt-rights to cheer for you. The people that love you are often a great indicator of the type of person you are. You don't get hated by 95% of liberals in existence by being moderately conservative or centrist.

List them.
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'It's okay that those gangbangers stole all my personal belongings and cash at gunpoint, cuz they're building a rec center!' - OneTimeBen
darkjedilink
12/06/18 6:00:52 PM
53
Anti-245 posted...
Nothing in particular makes them alt right movement but their views could be counted(I do count them) as white supremacist since they have an obsession with protecting "the west" and whatever that entails on a given day. Sometimes they'll backtrack on things they said they like if it means protecting "the west"( see their hypocrisy on "free speech").
They are also staunch liberals in that they believe in private property, wage labor and all the works. When Liberialism breaks down, they, as most liberals do, flirt with fascism to protect it.

What 'hypocrisy on free speech?'
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'It's okay that those gangbangers stole all my personal belongings and cash at gunpoint, cuz they're building a rec center!' - OneTimeBen
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