Board 8 > Breath of the Wild is so good.

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pjbasis
07/23/18 11:14:54 PM
#51:


I think I fall towards A based on my gaming history, but BotW taught me to try to enjoy a game from that B side.

In fact I think when I played Ocarina of Time the first time it was more from that B side, but growing up pushed me into a more objective based style.
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TheGoddamnSanta
07/23/18 11:19:45 PM
#52:


foolm0r0n posted...
That's the key thing that makes this game way different than any other game, and that's why lots of people like it. A kid on a supervised playground is gonna have way more fun than a kid thrown in the middle of a forest. People say they want a big world where they can do anything, but what they really want is a small manageable set of designed toys to play with, and an authority figure watching them in case they do something wrong. It's the most childlike form of play, an illusion of freedom.


I disagree heartily with this analysis, and I heavily reject that this game is more structured and restrictive than Just Cause. There are tons of things you can do in BotW that the developers didn't set up to be that way.

My favorite example was in the camel dungeon I couldn't find the second electric metal ball, so I emptied my entire inventory of metal items and painstakingly created a current to the other electric switch. The fact that that worked but lightning arrows and chuchus didn't kinda points to the fact the developers didn't even think of it, the whole game is filled with tiny things like that.
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Jakyl25
07/23/18 11:23:36 PM
#53:


Xiahou Shake posted...
The actual perfect video game would be one that can fully satisfy both sides, but I'd be super hard pressed to think of anything that comes close.


Super Mario Odyssey
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pjbasis
07/23/18 11:26:25 PM
#54:


I do think BotW got pretty repetitive after a while, but kind of in that Assassin's Creed way that I find it relaxing to have a set of tasks I complete again and again.

And the loop of repetition is a lot longer.
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foolm0r0n
07/23/18 11:39:20 PM
#55:


TheGoddamnSanta posted...
There are tons of things you can do in BotW that the developers didn't set up to be that way.

A tiny number of things at best, but most importantly those are all considered bugs/exploits by the designers. That electric example is pretty fun but you can tell it's a bug because they specifically disallowed lightning arrows from doing the job. In other places lightning arrows work as a substitute for electricity, because they wanted you to be able discover that option. But here they wanted you to use the electric ball. Although they might have even left that in on purpose since it's so much more tedious than the actual solution.

The point is, you're wrong if you think there's a lot in the game the designers didn't think about.
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Shonen_Bat
07/23/18 11:42:14 PM
#56:


wondering now if the designers ever considered the "fly to ganon in 5 minutes with a tree" thing
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ninkendo
07/23/18 11:45:34 PM
#57:


Jakyl25 posted...
Xiahou Shake posted...
The actual perfect video game would be one that can fully satisfy both sides, but I'd be super hard pressed to think of anything that comes close.


Super Mario Odyssey


The #1 game of 2017!
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Epyo
07/23/18 11:45:46 PM
#58:


Thanks for the kind comments! There's so much to say about botw...

foolm0r0n posted...
Epyo posted...
It can't be that both sides are wrong, it must a player personality thing

You're off here

(more stuff)


Yeah, I think I agree, BotW is not as emergent as its designers probably hoped it would be. The tiny hand-crafted interactions all over the place are the key. It's like they covered the world in a thin sprinkling of content, and I look in every direction and get overwhelmed at all the tiny cookies to consume everywhere, I get distracted by tiny cookies to eat on my way to eat other tiny cookies. And I bet a lot of players are the type that just don't care about that stuff, they want meaty stuff, a meal over here, a meal over there, big tasty stuff.

It might have to do with attention spans, I mean for me, for example, I can't stand being locked into a "plot" of that Type A personality stuff. I absolutely hate being in a dungeon, after a few minutes I wanna leave and do something fresh. I loathe any story/dialog/cutscene stuff in a game.
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Leafeon13N
07/23/18 11:46:33 PM
#59:


Breath of the Wild has some flaws but i know i read an article forever ago that explained what makes it great pretty well: The game never tells you no. It gives you all these abilities and they always interact the way you might think they do. You'll look at a puzzle, see something that doesn't look like the intended solution but think it should work anyway. Guess what, it will.

There is almost no way any two people who played the game blind completed it in the same way.

The game doesn't limit you, stuff works because its there.
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foolm0r0n
07/23/18 11:57:18 PM
#60:


Epyo posted...
BotW is not as emergent as its designers probably hoped it would be

No it's exactly as emergent as they wanted. They spent an insane amount of effort to make it this way.
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foolm0r0n
07/24/18 12:03:18 AM
#61:


Leafeon13N posted...
The game never tells you no

It definitely does a lot. That's a big part of what's unique about it. The game actually has an opinion of what you are doing and isn't afraid to say it. Most open world games try to stay as neutral as possible to the player's actions.
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_SecretSquirrel
07/24/18 12:03:36 AM
#62:


Breath of the Wild would be a great game if it weren't for the stupid weapon degradation mechanic. But unfortunately, it's there and it just so felt limiting at every stage of the game. Even when you get the Master Sword, it still had a needless charging mechanic. Get that shit out of Zelda.
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Epyo
07/24/18 12:07:42 AM
#63:


foolm0r0n posted...

No it's exactly as emergent as they wanted. They spent an insane amount of effort to make it this way.


Eh, I guess I don't know. From the looks of that 2d prototype and some of their GDC talks, it really seemed like emergent gameplay was the original goal. All that "multiplicative gameplay" stuff. And yeah I don't think that's what we got, like when you see that camp of dudes and a boulder on the cliff above them, that's not emergent, that's just being sure to provide many options...

So my idea of what happened is, maybe later they realized players are not actually that creative enough to use all that "multiplicative gameplay" concepts that much, or it's too hard to make; and they really just need to give players lots of options at all times, which is IMO what we ended up getting (and I kinda like it better anyway 'cause I'm not creative anyway)... but yeah, that's just my understanding of what happened, maybe not the case.
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foolm0r0n
07/24/18 12:19:22 AM
#64:


Epyo posted...
Eh, I guess I don't know. From the looks of that 2d prototype and some of their GDC talks, it really seemed like emergent gameplay was the original goal. All that "multiplicative gameplay" stuff. And yeah I don't think that's what we got, like when you see that camp of dudes and a boulder on the cliff above them, that's not emergent, that's just being sure to provide many options...

Their GDC talk explained it really well. Emergent gameplay is exponential. Multiplicative is different. It means if there are 10 mechanics, then there are 10*10 = 100 interactions. Emergent systems can create 100 interactions from just like 3 mechanics. But they specifically didn't want that. They wanted only the interactions that they liked and polished to end up in the game. And that took a ton of work but apparently it worked for a lot of people.

It's the difference between guitar and Guitar Hero. One is an overwhelmingly complicated tool of creation and innovation, and the other is a toy that was painstakingly limited in the most fun way. Most open world designers wrongly believe players want the former, while most toy-like game designers don't put in the effort to have those multiplicative mechanics. That's the balance BOTW achieved. I just wish the toy was more fun.
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Epyo
07/24/18 12:23:59 AM
#65:


Ahh, that sounds right.
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Epyo
07/24/18 12:48:11 AM
#66:


Leafeon13N posted...
Breath of the Wild has some flaws but i know i read an article forever ago that explained what makes it great pretty well: The game never tells you no. It gives you all these abilities and they always interact the way you might think they do. You'll look at a puzzle, see something that doesn't look like the intended solution but think it should work anyway. Guess what, it will.

There is almost no way any two people who played the game blind completed it in the same way.

The game doesn't limit you, stuff works because its there.


I agree with this!! This is probably why it's my #2 of all time, I watch someone else play and every route they take, every solution they find, is so different than mine. It's cool! It really felt like my own adventure through hyrule... As a millenial, everything has to be about me.

(My other long post was just thinking about why some ppl like botw's open world and some people don't, separate issue)
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VintageGin
07/24/18 12:50:40 AM
#67:


I really don't think this game (in my time playing it so far) is more restrictive than Just Cause or Minecraft or somehow "less emergent" than either. They have different restrictions that are just a function of their game/engine limitations, but that's it.

I like Just Cause 2 for a lot of the same reasons that I like Breath of the Wild.
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Tokoyami
07/24/18 1:00:05 AM
#68:


I will agree on the "game lets you play as you want even away from intended solutions", I've done some DUMB FUCKIN SHIT in shrines that technically worked because I was too fuckin stubborn to do it another way and I was committed.
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CelesMyUserName
07/24/18 1:05:55 AM
#69:


Tokoyami posted...
I will agree on the "game lets you play as you want even away from intended solutions", I've done some DUMB FUCKIN SHIT in shrines that technically worked because I was too fuckin stubborn to do it another way and I was committed.

I love this stuff, I was doing it all throughout Odyssey too
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VintageGin
07/25/18 2:52:56 AM
#70:


CelesMyUserName posted...
Tokoyami posted...
I will agree on the "game lets you play as you want even away from intended solutions", I've done some DUMB FUCKIN SHIT in shrines that technically worked because I was too fuckin stubborn to do it another way and I was committed.

I love this stuff, I was doing it all throughout Odyssey too


Looking forward to seeing some of this in Odyssey as I just started playing that too
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