Board 8 > Mafia discussion topic v2... with better arguments

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Suprak the Stud
06/19/18 10:26:22 PM
#101:


It was totally reasonable on your part to do so though since I responded to you there! If anything it was the better option than taking over Chris topic.

So yeah I shouldve just dropped it >_>
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RogueNoble
06/19/18 10:27:13 PM
#102:


https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/76731628

You know what's more fun than reasonable polite discussion about game theory?

A low stakes nonsense game while we wait for Gravy!
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ShatteredElysium
06/20/18 7:21:07 AM
#103:


Meow1000 posted...
turbopuns2 posted...
Meow1000 posted...
And you're still the only person in the entire topic acting like anyone other than you has brought up 2-2-1 during the day is an auto scum victory.

Like at this point you're only arguing with yourself.


You clearly didn't read the last topic because multiple people agreed with me.

SE and Nana, to name two.

And you aren't even refuting my logic.


You have never argued the same point. What you've argued is a separate matter entirely.

During the DAY. The game is not over. During the NIGHT, the day is. Your argument only focuses on crying "Why is the game over during the day!?"

You're not actually arguing against anyone, you're ignoring the actual argument while pretending to be involved.

You're making an argument to hear yourself argue with yourself. Give it a rest already.

During the day the game is alive. During the night the game is over. Stop crying about "Why is the game over if it's day?"

That isn't the question. The question is does Survivor win with scum immediately if it's 2-2-1 going into night, and it does.


Because all the discussion last topic was about the day phase not night phase. If it's 2-2-1 going into the night phase and there's nobody left to fuck over the night kill, obviously mafia win. But in the last topic, my understanding was people were ending the game at 2-2-1 entering the day phase which is exactly why I was arguing against it.
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neonreaper
06/20/18 10:36:53 AM
#104:


I would probably lean towards making mafia shoot at night because they don't technically control the lynch until they shoot, and yeah that could mean they shoot the survivor. It's an interesting discussion to me!
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 11:04:03 AM
#105:


I have this penchant for structuring my arguments in a way that causes people to completely misunderstand my point, and often even misunderstand what I'm talking about altogether. It's been an issue for me on this site for a long time, both in and out of mafia. I'm not really sure if that is what was going on with Blade. Either way, I want to apologize for anything from me which was perceived as toxic or pedantic. I had some red wine which causes me to get pretty emphatic (all the caps, you see), and that only compounds the issue of me making myself unclear. From my point of view, I was always pushing the exact same basic fundamental principle the entire time, and that principle is that in any scenario whatsoever where there is a reasonable (not large, but reasonable) chance a player who is earnestly striving to achieve their win condition might make a play which would not result in them reaching their win condition, then the outcome of the game should not be deemed as "inevitable". Every point I ever made in the previous topic or this one was stemming from that idea. Whether it is with regard to a lynch scenario during the day or submitting a shot during the night is not important. I think that is a fairly straightforward and logical stance to take, but people are allowed to have different beliefs and it's probably good and healthy that they do.
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Regaro
06/20/18 11:12:40 AM
#106:


neonreaper posted...
I would probably lean towards making mafia shoot at night because they don't technically control the lynch until they shoot, and yeah that could mean they shoot the survivor. It's an interesting discussion to me!

I don't actually agree with this one, though it's a bit interesting to think about.

My take is that the endgame conditions for scum winning are as follows:
Entering Day Phase: Does scum control the lynch (at least to force a no lynch, even if not an outright majority)? If yes, end game.
Entering Night Phase: Does any combination of night actions exist (Including scum choosing not to shoot) that would prevent scum from controlling the lynch the next day? If no, end game.

2-2-1 entering day, scum does not control the lynch alone, so don't end game. Survivor is not scum. If Survivor/Scum team up mid-day, they control the lynch together. But that has to play out. If it does, then they enter night at 2-1-1. Scum controls lynch the next day even if they don't shoot, so end game without taking night actions.

2-2-1 entering night is trivial. Scum has to shoot to control the lynch at 2-1-1 or 2-2 the next day. So scum has to shoot, but nothing stops them from winning as long as they shoot somebody.
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 11:26:24 AM
#107:


haha that reminds me, at some point yesterday I was thinking "I should tag reg, foolmo, and dowolf and get some more CS minds in here"
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Regaro
06/20/18 11:32:43 AM
#108:


The most important thing to do in this discussion is define the endgame conditions. If you don't agree on those, you probably won't agree on how to handle the situation.
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Leo3Leo3Leo
06/20/18 11:39:32 AM
#109:


I dunno guys I feel like we keep circling back to "ban survivor and miller, they are not fun"
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Corrik
06/20/18 11:41:06 AM
#110:


Leo3Leo3Leo posted...
I dunno guys I feel like we keep circling back to "ban survivor and miller, they are not fun"

Ban vanilla then
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VeryInsane
06/20/18 11:43:01 AM
#111:


I once put in a miller role that was tied to doctor and they had to full claim miller doctor or they would be modkilled

Thats probably the approach to go with miller

Survivor on the other hand is kinda lame all things considered
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Regaro
06/20/18 11:44:35 AM
#112:


Leo3Leo3Leo posted...
I dunno guys I feel like we keep circling back to "ban survivor and miller, they are not fun"

I can get behind this.

Miller Power is a potential exception, but handle with care even so.
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Leo3Leo3Leo
06/20/18 11:57:43 AM
#113:


Corrik posted...
Leo3Leo3Leo posted...
I dunno guys I feel like we keep circling back to "ban survivor and miller, they are not fun"

Ban vanilla then


Vanilla is fun. Getting shot N2 because scum thought I was power was a grand old time. Sure, people could do that for miller, but what always happens is the same tired old conversation about millers happens. Better claim first post!!!

But then hosts put in 2+ millers, how ABSURD
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IfGodCouldDie
06/20/18 12:03:12 PM
#114:


https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/ threads/17356-Season-5-Game-10-Fear-and-Loathing-in-Las-Vegas-The-Mafia- Championship?p=2443100&posted=1#post2443100

The championship game I have subbed in to, dont worry boys I promise to bring shame and humiliation to our site lol.
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Suprak the Stud
06/20/18 12:40:13 PM
#115:


Oh dear.

GOOD LUCK IGCD!
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 8:47:13 PM
#116:


Just discovered this in the Queue thread on the mafia board

ScareChan posted...
M0NSTER_ posted...
I'm putting together an anonymous mafia as I know some people expressed an interest in that a little while back. Probably put a signup topic in a couple weeks for it.


dont do this. You are way too inexperience in mafia let alone to host something of this magnitude


It made me giggle a little bit
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 8:47:40 PM
#117:


Scare was on point right away! lol
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IfGodCouldDie
06/20/18 8:48:23 PM
#118:


turbopuns2 posted...
Scare was on point right away! lol

It's even funnier because he balance checked it.
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 8:51:28 PM
#119:


Well yeah but we covered that part earlier. The background info was a nice cherry on top
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turbopuns2
06/20/18 9:28:52 PM
#120:


If for some reason anyone can't play in gravy's game, or idk just hates gravy, I'm going to host a small game for 8-10 players on the mafia community board.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/1016-forum-mafia/76734702

Start would be roughly sunday june 24.

I want to do a game that's a little different from the norm but being careful to not get too out there crazy

Not all that opposed to people double dipping, although I'd prioritize people who aren't in P5
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ScareChan
06/21/18 12:51:45 AM
#121:


That post is why he asked me to balance check because he knew I didn't want to play in it
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turbopuns2
06/21/18 1:09:19 AM
#122:


ScareChan posted...
That post is why he asked me to balance check because he knew I didn't want to play in it


Yeah i figured as much
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Panthera
06/22/18 4:10:39 PM
#123:


Mafia

It's a game
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RogueNoble
06/23/18 7:41:57 PM
#124:


A miserable pile of game
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turbopuns2
06/25/18 12:38:52 AM
#125:


Is anyone willing to cohost my 10 player game which already started on the forum mafia board?

All i need is some votals now and then
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turbopuns2
06/25/18 12:42:00 AM
#126:


*checks timestamps*

Oh i mean uh...bump
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turbopuns2
06/25/18 12:44:50 AM
#127:


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ScareChan
06/26/18 12:38:05 AM
#128:


hey Blade

I know you said you dont like MU, but there are some games that allow hydra slots. May be interesting if you and Cresent want to play as a single role.
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IfGodCouldDie
06/27/18 5:42:15 PM
#129:


Would anyone consider our mafia games power heavy?
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foolm0r0n
06/27/18 5:45:46 PM
#130:


Obviously

I literally guffawed when I saw some of those 9-vanilla 3-scum matches on MU
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IfGodCouldDie
06/27/18 5:47:29 PM
#131:


I guess I didn't really, but that might be due to games being won less by power roles and more by people figuring out the games.
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ScareChan
06/27/18 5:49:16 PM
#132:


They are power heavy but we have hosts who understand how to balance
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IfGodCouldDie
06/27/18 5:52:17 PM
#133:


It was just kind of a bit of a culture shock when I played a champ game on MU, everyone was so worried about power being outed, almost like they didn't think they could win the game if it was vanillas vs. goons.
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Paratroopa1
06/27/18 9:20:48 PM
#134:


mountainous goat
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foolm0r0n
06/27/18 9:24:05 PM
#135:


To be fair it takes a long time to get experienced enough that power roles don't dominate the game and the meta

But also if they keep playing games with few power, they're naturally gonna overvalue that power... high power games show that fundamentals still rule the game no matter what
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IfGodCouldDie
06/27/18 9:34:19 PM
#136:


Fair enough. It seemed more like town was just given more power than scum when I am used to town and scum being fairly equal in power. It just seemed weird to be so worried about power in a situation like that.
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greengravy294
06/28/18 1:41:11 AM
#137:


sorry for canceling my game

trying to meet deadlines and live up to expectations made me really not run it. should have finished the setup before doing signups, but i felt like the board needed a game so it didnt go on hiatus again.

my bad.
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IfGodCouldDie
06/28/18 2:54:21 AM
#138:


greengravy294 posted...
sorry for canceling my game

trying to meet deadlines and live up to expectations made me really not run it. should have finished the setup before doing signups, but i felt like the board needed a game so it didnt go on hiatus again.

my bad.

As far as I am concerned, I forgive you. I'd rather have no game than an incomplete or half-assed run one.(no shade at blade, he at least got crescent to come in and tell us we are on our own. 3/4 run one.)
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Forceful_Dragon
06/28/18 4:26:54 AM
#139:


You gotta take care of your own stuff first and foremost and no one will hold it against you, gravy. Just deal with your stuff and we would love to play a mafia game hosted by you when the timing works out better.
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ScareChan
06/28/18 8:02:34 AM
#140:


Forceful_Dragon posted...
You gotta take care of your own stuff first and foremost and no one will hold it against you, gravy. Just deal with your stuff and we would love to play a mafia game hosted by you when the timing works out better.

Or

OR

duck gravy
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ColZach
06/28/18 8:55:04 AM
#141:


Forceful_Dragon posted...
You gotta take care of your own stuff first and foremost and no one will hold it against you, gravy. Just deal with your stuff and we would love to play a mafia game hosted by you when the timing works out better.
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foolm0r0n
06/28/18 1:06:25 PM
#142:


tbh I can't see mafia hosts as anything more than mere slaves so just host the damn game gravy
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