Board 8 > justice league movie *spoilers*

(+) Yeah! (+)

Justice League

the movie was pretty bland overall. it had a few good scenes and not many bad scenes, but there were absolutely no scenes that I would call great. the best scene is probably the one where steppenwolf first appears and battles against all of the amazons... which is pretty sad to consider because 1. it wasn't even an amazing scene or anything, it's just that nothing else in the movie was really all that exciting and 2. it was totally disconnected and unrelated from EVERYTHING ELSE going on in the movie. to make matters worse, the villain shows up like an ultimate badass in this scene but then is basically just who cares for the entire rest of the film. honestly I was waiting for darkseid to appear at the end and it just never happened. can't believe how much of a non-entity this villain was. he was literally a guy that superman, wonder woman, or aquaman could slap around senselessly in a 1 v 1 fight... and for some reason the ENTIRE JUSTICE LEAGUE was going up against him.

superman: felt disconnected and weird in this film. I felt this actor did an "okay" job in the previous movies as, at least, the casual version of what people think Superman is supposed to be. in this movie they just made him seem like an awkward alien.

batman: his characterization was okay. it felt a bit weird they had to do that one batman is an asshole moment almost as if just to acknowledge the meme of batman being an asshole.

wonder woman: her characterization was okay. I think I liked her better in her own movie but she wasn't bad here or anything.

cyborg: probably had the best characterization of anyone in the film.

flash: lmao cringeworthy awkward nerd. he was kinda funny at times I guess but not at all heroic in any way.

aquaman: pretty much just as cringeworthy as the flash but even worse because they were trying to make him seem badass or something. as a fan of the aquaman character I can say this adaptation did not work for me. I think the issue is, really, it's just jason momoa. yeah he did a good job with khal drogo, we all remember that fondly. but I believe now that was probably carried mostly by GRRM's amazing writing and the fact that game of thrones season 1 actually followed the books closely. between this movie and the ridiculous conan the barbarian remake I think we've seen enough evidence that momoa is just not that good.

the action scenes were... definitely better than something like avengers 2 where I hated every single action scene. there did seem to be some pretty decent directing here in terms of how the action played out. nothing notably bad and there were a few standout awesome moments. steppenwolf wrecking all of the amazons as previously mentioned above. the part where the flash tries to run behind superman to ambush him and then they have the shot of superman being able to follow his movements was pretty much amazing, especially afterwards when he starts attacking the flash and totally turns the tables on him while fighting at super speed. I thought that was done really well.

also I take back the part about no fight scenes being bad. hahahah holy shit the scene where steppenwolf defeats aquaman AND mera while fighting underwater hahahhahaahahh this shit oh man what. I don't even know what to say. I'm just remembering now how bad this was. the fight was poorly directed, there was no tension, nothing exciting about the combat, and they literally had aquaman's first fight EVER on the big screen as one where he literally jobs to an enemy while FIGHTING UNDERWATER.

aquaman. jobbing. underwater. fucking hell.

the story was incredibly low stakes and made me feel like the entire movie was pointless. once again you're waiting for darkseid to appear and justify the fact that batman needed to get a super team together and then they just defeat pushover steppenwolf and the movie just sort of... ends.

6/10 maybe 7/10?
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what I would do to fix this movie:

make aquaman and the flash actual characters instead of an edgelord and a perma-virgin.

the scene where steppenwolf attacks atlantis should have aquaman defeat him and chase him away. what baffles me most about this scene is that they already have a moment where they sucessfully stop steppenwolf from stealing one of the mother boxes; only the way it's done in the movie is incredibly dumb. they're having a huge battle and then cyborg just goes "welp seeya guys later" and then goes and retrieves it offscreen... that is so lame and pointless. why not just let steppenwolf steal the motherbox from star labs when he kidnaps the janitor, you know, like he would actually have done while he was RIGHT THERE IN STAR LABS. if we need the justice league to successfully secure one mother box then, you know, how about we have aquaman actually defeat someone while fighting underwater??? just a suggestion.

hire a new director and new writers to make the directing of the movie better (music choice was awful, pacing was pretty bad. nothing happens in the first hour despite the fact the best action scene actually happens at the 45 minute mark). and, more importantly, the dialogue of the characters and their characterization needs to not suck. I'm not even asking for everyone to be done as well as Cyborg was done but seriously Superman, Flash, and Aquaman needed better representation here.

darkseid needs to appear at the end. this is a fucking no brainer. someone should literally, no actually, everyone who worked on this movie should lose their job over this. steppenwolf. steppenwolf was the final boss. literally steppenwolf. do you even know who that is? the entire movie was about him gathering the motherboxes. HE SHOULD HAVE SUMMONED DARKSEID AT THE END. this would have justified the need for having superman, aquaman, and wonder woman all in one place. and if they made flash into an actual hero instead of a fucking reddit poster it would have justified the need to have him there, too.

how are the people who make the DC movies so bad at making DC movies.
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surprise it's a bad movie
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AquaArcane posted...

surprise it's a bad movie

yeah I certainly didn't expect it to be good. but for me there is still value in analyzing which parts of the film did and didn't work. for example I think the handling of cyborg here showed that it's not just an automatically terrible move to include new heroes in this type of movie. a lot of people were saying this was a bad idea just because they were introducing new characters without giving them their own movies first. truthfully cyborg was the best handled character in the movie, while returning characters like superman were done pretty bad.
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Avengers worked because each character had a movie to develop themselves and got the audience familiar before starting it

Justice League is different because its the launching point for the DC Cinematic Universe, and thats where its shortcomings are. Most of the characters havent gotten a movie to develop their character. They cant have Darkseid be the bad guy, that would be like making Thanos the bad guy in the first Avengers movie, thats essentially impossible to top.

Steppenwolf looked like a complete jobber when Superman shows up though, that was probably the weakest point when it came to picking him as the villain. That, and they already did the whole Superman Dies story arc which was probably a mistake. I think a good villain to start the Justice League would be Brainiac
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The best thing in the movie is when Flash realizes Superman can move as fast as he can.
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I think I liked it more because I expected it to be completely horrible and it was only mediocre.

I watched Thor Ragnarok and Spider-Man Homecoming after and those were better.

Then I watched Suicide Squad and that certainly was a movie.
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LiquidOshawott posted...

Avengers worked because each character had a movie to develop themselves and got the audience familiar before starting it

Justice League is different because its the launching point for the DC Cinematic Universe, and thats where its shortcomings are. Most of the characters havent gotten a movie to develop their character.

this theory doesn't adequately explain why cyborg is the best character in the film despite only appearing in this movie. there's lots of bad stuff about this movie and it's a lot more complicated than some blanket statement about how the Avengers model is the only viable model.

LiquidOshawott posted...

They cant have Darkseid be the bad guy, that would be like making Thanos the bad guy in the first Avengers movie, thats essentially impossible to top.

I'd be more concerned about making a good movie before worrying about what the sequel is going to be. seems like the director of this film should have been as well.

LiquidOshawott posted...

Steppenwolf looked like a complete jobber when Superman shows up though, that was probably the weakest point when it came to picking him as the villain. That, and they already did the whole Superman Dies story arc which was probably a mistake. I think a good villain to start the Justice League would be Brainiac

death and return of superman was one of the major turning points in DC comics history. specifically, one of the worst things that has even happened. so yeah them doing it here this early, or rather, then doing it AT ALL, was a poor move on their part.

Brainiac could have been cool but that story set up only works if Superman is already around at the beginning of the movie. it also requires Superman to have been written as a great character rather than the DC cinematic universe version of Superman who completely lacks the essence of what the Superman character is supposed to be about.

Anagram posted...

The best thing in the movie is when Flash realizes Superman can move as fast as he can.

pretty much.
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bryans7 posted...

I think I liked it more because I expected it to be completely horrible and it was only mediocre.

I watched Thor Ragnarok and Spider-Man Homecoming after and those were better.

yeah my write ups for Ragnarok and Homecoming were both a lot more favorable. I loved Ragnarok. Homecoming was pretty high up there too.

bryans7 posted...

Then I watched Suicide Squad and that certainly was a movie.

I think when I watched Suicide Squad I tried to be fairly apologetic of the film and went relatively easy on it while still giving it a mediocre rating. I wanted it to be good, even though it wasn't. now looking back I'd say that with all of the criticisms I had toward it, I should have scored it a lot lower at the time.
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Anagram posted...

The best thing in the movie is when Flash realizes Superman can move as fast as he can.

Agreed
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MariaTaylor posted...

I think when I watched Suicide Squad I tried to be fairly apologetic of the film and went relatively easy on it while still giving it a mediocre rating. I wanted it to be good, even though it wasn't. now looking back I'd say that with all of the criticisms I had toward it, I should have scored it a lot lower at the time

I felt like there was a good movie there somewhere, but it was so... all over the place. I liked the characters but the actual plot and story weren't good. Nothing really felt earned, like Diablo yelling about how he didn't want to lose another family. You've barely spoken to these people.

Anagram posted...

The best thing in the movie is when Flash realizes Superman can move as fast as he can.

This was pretty great though.
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I forgot to mention I also liked the part where they showed a Green Lantern fighting in the past against Steppenwolf. but that was like a 4 second shot.
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MariaTaylor posted...

death and return of superman was one of the major turning points in DC comics history. specifically, one of the worst things that has even happened

Probably shouldn't say this like it's factual, since it was a critical and commercial success, especially the World without Superman and Return.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

MariaTaylor posted...

death and return of superman was one of the major turning points in DC comics history. specifically, one of the worst things that has even happened

Probably shouldn't say this like it's factual, since it was a critical and commercial success, especially the World without Superman and Return.

1. the fact that it was a commercial success is exactly the reason why it was a turning point. if it had been a flop it wouldn't have impacted anything moving forward. where was this point ever disputed?

2. the things that I type and say are my opinion. when did I ever say that it was a fact? I said it because it's what I personally believe.
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do you think there is some magical objective measurement of the positive and negative turning points in subjective critique of the comic book medium? obviously anything that any person says is going to be their own opinion. what are you even talking about with that post.
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You said it was one of the "worst things that ever happened." Just thought I should clarify for people that have never read that storyline that your opinion doesn't necessarily reflect the general response to the storyline. I don't see a reason for you to be snippy about that. It was a very subtly thrown-in comment that was exactly the sort of opinion that can be easily accepted as fact in lieu of actual experience with a storyline given the topic is about a film and not comics themselves. A casual film viewer who might have interest in comics could easily skip reading it or other Superman titles since they may agree with your position on Justice League and therefore may consider your opinion on DC storylines in comics as useful barometers for what they should or should not read. Too often, comments like that are given credence as larger opinions which are the basis for topics of discussion become the focus. It's important to be an activist for things in which you support or enjoy. As a fan of the work of writers like Dan Jurgens, I felt it would behoove me to offer a counter point of view.

MariaTaylor posted...

what are you even talking about with that post.

I'm talking about giving a little bit of meager defense for a maligned comic book trapped in a deluge of lukewarm reactions to a film that almost but not quite completely failed to follow the comic.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

You said it was one of the "worst things that ever happened." Just thought I should clarify for people that have never read that storyline that your opinion doesn't necessarily reflect the general response to the storyline. I don't see a reason for you to be snippy about that. It was a very subtly thrown-in comment that was exactly the sort of opinion that can be easily accepted as fact in lieu of actual experience with a storyline given the topic is about a film and not comics themselves. A casual film viewer who might have interest in comics could easily skip reading it or other Superman titles since they may agree with your position on Justice League and therefore may consider your opinion on DC storylines in comics as useful barometers for what they should or should not read.

I mean, this is still the case. people who agree with MY OPINIONS on the justice league movie would be more likely to agree with MY OPINIONS on the death and return of superman story arc.

you're for some reason citing the holy objective truth when you obviously yourself have a stake in this line of discussion. I also remarked that cyborg had the best characterization in this film. do you think that makes it objectively true? or do you think it was just my opinion?

the fact that you only felt the need to speak up about the death and return of superman clearly shows your own personal bias. you're not trying to get people to consider that what I said is just my opinion. that's common sense.

you're trying to convince people that something you like is good, but you're being very sly about it.

scarletspeed7 posted...

I'm talking about giving a little bit of meager defense for a maligned comic book trapped in a deluge of lukewarm reactions to a film that almost but not quite completely failed to follow the comic.

you didn't give any defense to the death and return of superman comics, though. all you did was say that it's "just my opinion" that it's bad. you didn't say one thing about why you think it's actually good. do that first before criticizing me about how I express my opinions.
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MariaTaylor posted...

you're trying to convince people that something you like is good, but you're being very sly about it.

That's bullshit and you know it. I clearly said that I care about comics and am a supporter of them. I wanted to make sure people got a fair shot. So your definition of "sly" really needs some work. I couldn't be more up-front if I tried.

MariaTaylor posted...

you didn't give any defense to the death and return of superman comics, though. all you did was say that it's "just my opinion" that it's bad. you didn't say one thing about why you think it's actually good.

I said a meager defense. Which was just to say that an opinion that was slid in "slyly" isn't necessarily a majority point of view in order to try to balance things out.

MariaTaylor posted...

do that first before criticizing me about how I express my opinions.

No, I don't think I will. I think I'm allowed to post as I wish on the board so long as I don't break terms of use. Now, if you don't like my style of posting or wish for interactions with me to cease, you are welcome to block me. But my post wasn't a criticism of you. I didn't bring up you except as an extension of my cautionary message about your post. You are of secondary importance to me. Your message about Death of Superman was of primary importance. Your general behavior and sense of aesthetic subjectivity did not, in that post, matter. Because my intent wasn't to go after you.

As an aside, you once told me in a post that you didn't have a sense of social nuance. I often feel I make social gaffes as well. Perhaps the entire issue lies with me here. Perhaps I should have commented positively on that which I agreed with on the previous posts to spare your animosity, but I made the foolish assumption on my part that a simple defense of a comic from someone consistently referenced on the board as the "comic guy" would at worst be met with an eye roll and maybe a "typical scarlet defending comics." There is no ulterior motive or nefarious desires here.

Now if you don't know who I am and had no context to why I would ever post something like that, I really can't help that.

MariaTaylor posted...

you're not trying to get people to consider that what I said is just my opinion. that's common sense.

Insert judge from The Good Wife here.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

That's bullshit and you know it. I clearly said that I care about comics and am a supporter of them.

what makes you think that? why would I say something if I didn't believe it was true?

scarletspeed7 posted...

I said a meager defense. Which was just to say that an opinion that was slid in "slyly" isn't necessarily a majority point of view in order to try to balance things out.

does something being a majority opinion make it better? once again, people who agree with my opinions are more likely to agree with.... my opinions. you're trying to somehow highlight the fact that my opinion isn't the majority when that's totally irrelevant. if someone respects my opinion on comics they're going to listen to me over the majority anyway.

twilight was also a commercial success. I don't see you out there advocating that everyone on board 8 should give that a chance.

scarletspeed7 posted...

but I made the foolish assumption on my part that a simple defense of a comic from someone consistently reference on the board as the "comic guy" would at worst be meant with an eye roll and maybe a "typical scarlet defending comics."

well at least we agree on this. it was definitely foolish to assume that I'd respond that way, since that kind of post doesn't reflect my character at all.
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MariaTaylor posted...

what makes you think that? why would I say something if I didn't believe it was true?

Well because I posted
scarletspeed7 posted...

It's important to be an activist for things in which you support or enjoy. As a fan of the work of writers like Dan Jurgens, I felt it would behoove me to offer a counter point of view.

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so you admitting that you're actively campaigning with personal bias in favor of something that you personally enjoy is somehow supposed to prove that my claim that you were posting with active bias about something you personally enjoy was bullshit and that I knew it?

I'm even more confused
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if anything we both seem to agree that what I said wasn't bullshit, except for the part where you're also claiming that it's bullshit despite agreeing with me
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MariaTaylor posted...

if anything we both seem to agree that what I said wasn't bullshit, except for the part where you're also claiming that it's bullshit despite agreeing with me

I really have to question your motives at this point. I've often found that on Board 8, a majority point of view can be ostracized and not given a fair due. I consistently find myself championing things that are well-received by consumers of the medium in which it originates. I'm going to make an assumption that for you, at this point, you have become so consumed in the definition of what your opinion is in comparison to this thread, that you see all of my posts now as a personal attack, of which they were not. I believe it would be in my best interest to cease posting here as you do not seem receptive to what I have to say at this point based on your wording. I'm sorry if I've offended somehow and I'll endeavor to avoid such confusion with you in the future.

I would suggest that this sort of strange hostility towards what was really no different than a vast majority of comments on this board has actually actively caused a negative experience to another user on this board. This is a very rhetorical argument with almost no real content between either of us, and you seem to relish going on the offensive. You've really jumped on the chance to lash out at someone who posted a comment that could just as easily have been ignored as responded to in this sort of manner. Or you, could have come directly to me and said, "Hey, this bothers me personally," and offered me a chance to respond in a way that could have led to a fruitful discussion.

If my comment on your opinion is fueled by personal bias, then that's as it should be. Debates on creative works are almost always built on aesthetic differences, which stem from personal bias. All opinions do. To consistently tag this conversation with further discussion that just talks about the definition of opinions is circular. My comment of "Hey, this isn't necessarily a standard opinion," isn't meant to impugn your opinion, nor does it. It simply tries to say, "Hey, Death of Superman ain't no Justice League movie. Give it a shot." Maybe had I posted that specifically, none of this would have happened. Perhaps my posting style is the real issue here. And if so, I will endeavor not to interact with you in this manner in the future. But I have a personal inkling that you might have just relished the opportunity to have an argument here and that perhaps this was just enough of a tipping point for you to do so. Again, personal conjecture on my part, but I feel like this sort of hostility isn't the sort of attitude that helps breed a community and instead causes further distance among users. No matter how this resolves, it denigrates both of us in the eyes of others on this board.
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scarletspeed7 posted...

Or you, could have come directly to me and said, "Hey, this bothers me personally," and offered me a chance to respond in a way that could have led to a fruitful discussion.

why would I do that? your comments didn't bother me, I just thought they were sly and stupid, so I pointed out that they were sly and then elaborated on the ways I thought your logic was poorly laid out. this doesn't require me to be bothered. it only requires me to think that you were being sly and stupid.

scarletspeed7 posted...

If my comment on your opinion is fueled by personal bias, then that's as it should be.

agreed. so why were you originally trying to make it seem like a debate between my opinion vs objective truth when it was in reality a debate between my opinion vs your opinion? and once again by RETREATING from that conversation you are being very sly and trying to make it seem like a misunderstanding. you are repeatedly refusing to directly respond to the the topic at hand. very sly and very cowardly.

scarletspeed7 posted...

But I have a personal inkling that you might have just relished the opportunity to have an argument here and that perhaps this was just enough of a tipping point for you to do so. Again, personal conjecture on my part, but I feel like this sort of hostility isn't the sort of attitude that helps breed a community and instead causes further distance among users. No matter how this resolves, it denigrates both of us in the eyes of others on this board.

you're free to think whatever you want, and other users on the board are free to think whatever they want. it's very clear to me now that you seem to be very wrapped up in how other people are going to perceive you and this is the reason why you won't engage the subject directly. I don't have such hangups, which is why I've directly addressed the subject that you yourself brought up first. if you see this as being aggressive then I guess that's how you see it.
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MariaTaylor posted...

I don't have such hangups, which is why I've directly addressed the subject that you yourself brought up first.

I feel like you haven't been clear then in what I'm not addressing. All of your comments have been about how I posted an opinion and how that opinion is somehow "sly". Which is a word for being slick and intellectually dishonest, which I feel is not an accurate representation of my intent. If all this was is just a misunderstanding on my part, I'd be happy to rectify that. Because, yes, I care what people think about me. I find that if I want to be part of a community, having a healthy relationship with the other parts of that community is vital.
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MariaTaylor posted...

you didn't give any defense to the death and return of superman comics, though. all you did was say that it's "just my opinion" that it's bad. you didn't say one thing about why you think it's actually good. do that first before criticizing me about how I express my opinions.

^ this, which you clearly have no interest in doing.

you want people to think that the death and return of superman is worth reading but you're wholly unprepared to argue in favor of that point. all you've done is try and attack my credibility by claiming that I'm misrepresenting my opinion as fact (which I never did) and then saying that the majority of people like it and therefore users should give it a chance.

I've already represented my position. I gave a pretty decent amount of thought into my opinions on the justice league movie. I've said that I thought death and return of superman was one of the worst things to happen to the industry. if people wished for me to elaborate on that point they could ask me and they know I would respond on what I mean.

you seem to be the only person in this discussion who WON'T elaborate when your stance is called into question. we're already well past it at this point, but if you want to know why I responded to you the way I did this is exactly why. you're coming at me with this 'maria's opinion vs objective truth' position like you're some representative of fair and balanced views, when in fact you're actually representing 'maria's opinion vs scarlet's opinion' while afraid to actually put your opinion out there or support it with any thoughts.
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MariaTaylor posted...

^ this, which you clearly have no interest in doing.

Well that's not true. I'm happy to respond to this! Sorry that I somehow missed that this was what you were looking for. You know, I honestly thought I had even posted a comment or two about what I thought was enjoyable in DoS, so fault's on me! Late night posting while watching TV, not always a reliable form of communication, am I right?

While there's no special depth to the narrative of Death of Superman, the consequences of the demise of the inspiration point of DC's modern heroes really provided a great opportunity to explore a world where Superman had become a crucial point of hope and also stability and lost it abruptly, brutally and without reason. It provided some great examples of how grief is processed differently. And much like when a world leader dies, the rippling effects in politics or pop culture often hit in unique ways. Unlike Justice League, Death of Superman and the subsequent Return storyline is given a lot of time to unfold, and the detail provide to various characters really helps elevate it over the original story.

Death of Superman is really just a prelude to a much more interesting story that looks to evolve the world of Metropolis by forcing Metropolis to adapt in the absence of one of its most fundamental building blocks, and the result is enjoyable. You get new voices on Super-titles for the first time in a while, and it is a great starting point for new readers. And, of course, the aftereffects actually matter in the DCU for years to come, so readers who want to continue with the story are rewarded by events such as the destruction of Coast City persisting as a part of the DC lore long afterwards.

Really, the only major sticking points I personally have are with the dialogue being pretty stilted in some of the issues (earlier on; it definitely improves over time), and with the art jumping between artists often (but that's the nature of large crossovers).

Hey, sorry, I didn't understand what your intent was there. Hope that helps! I'm sorry that it led you to such a place of anger and hatred that you had to resort to using words such as "stupid" and "cowardly" to describe me. I know you were just passionately defending your argument which is an admirable quality that someone emotionally invested in good storytelling can respect.
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nothing that I've said requires anger or hatred. stop projecting feelings onto me and assuming that I have to "resort" to anything. if I call someone stupid and cowardly it's not because I'm angry, it's not because I hate them -- if I was angry, I would say I am angry. If I hated you, I would say I hate you. it's because I thought you were acting stupid and cowardly. I meant exactly what I said. nothing confusing about that.
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MariaTaylor posted...

stop projecting feelings onto me

Hey, I can't help that your caliber of conversation connotes significant amounts of unbridled emotion. Anyways, hope you enjoyed my personal opine on why Death of Superman can be an enjoying little jaunt in the world of Superman! :O
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For what its worth I think you are both right.

DoS is a decent story, but Funeral for a Friend, World Without a Superman (or Reign of the Supermen) and Return of Superman constitute what remains a pretty damn good run.

On the flipside, DoS did a lot of things that caused a lot of problems for comic books in the 90s that really did a lot to drive the hobby underground. Between the VARIANT HOLOGRAPHIC ONE OF A KIND collector editions, the mass hysteria of people trying to game the collectable comics market and the inevitable bust once people realized that their 50 issues of the issue where Superman dies werent going to hold any value were really awful problems from a financial standpoint and from a storytelling standpoint MAJOR CHARACTER DEATHS (that are very clearly temporary) have become a rather annoying mainstay from a narrative perspective that has only recently gone away to any major extent.
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Hey hey hey, major character deaths were already temporary prior to this! Blame Crisis. We killed Wonder Woman and immediately rebooted her! I kind of wonder where variants actually started; DoS did push the special variant, but I think it was a good concept in that specific practice and became perverted to greedy ends later.

I think the desire to duplicate the success of DoS is where you can start to really blame the practice.
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Eddv posted...

DoS did a lot of things that caused a lot of problems for comic books in the 90s that really did a lot to drive the hobby underground. Between the VARIANT HOLOGRAPHIC ONE OF A KIND collector editions, the mass hysteria of people trying to game the collectable comics market and the inevitable bust once people realized that their 50 issues of the issue where Superman dies werent going to hold any value were really awful problems from a financial standpoint and from a storytelling standpoint MAJOR CHARACTER DEATHS (that are very clearly temporary) have become a rather annoying mainstay from a narrative perspective that has only recently gone away to any major extent.

it was basically a prototype of modern clickbait style advertising and writing. they simply came up with a shocking idea that would drive sales without any consideration for what came next. whether the story was executed well or not, whether the resulting stories were done well, is almost irrelevant. the fact that this tactic was financially successful would pave the way for later executives to push these kinds of storylines onto writers as a cheap way to get sales without regard for quality. the industry was forever negatively impacted as a result.

it's also a fairly common sentiment that superman dying and then coming back to life was a precursor for the fact that any character no matter how large could be killed off, and in tandem any death no matter how important could be undone.
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