Poll of the Day > Any Magic the Gathering players here? Is there a MTG board on this site?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I just had a small question regarding a specific card:

The card "Essence Flare" reads:

"Target creature gets +2/+0. During each of its controller's upkeeps, put a -0/-1 counter on the creature. These counters remain even if Essence Flare is removed"

Will the creature die if enough counters pile up and the -1 counter reduces the creatures toughness to 0?
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Yes, any time a creature's toughness goes below 0 from counters or -X/-X effects, it dies as a state based action.

Now, this also means is that even if it were indestructible, it would still die. Which is the only way to kill them sometimes.

EDIT: State based action basically means it happens and you can't respond to it (you can respond to the creature getting those counters though).

I played a ton in 4th ed and have like 3000 cards in a box that I'll never use.... ... that is about it.


Also:

https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/16643/can-negative-toughness-effects-kill-a-creature
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Yes if a creatures toughness reaches 0, it dies. Even if that creature has indestructable, if it's toughness is reduced to 0 it dies.

Also yes there is an mtg board but it's not super active.

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000397-collectible-card-games-magic-the-gathering
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shadowsword87 posted...

Yes, any time a creature's toughness goes below 0 from counters or -X/-X effects, it dies as a state based action.

Now, this also means is that even if it were indestructible, it would still die. Which is the only way to kill them sometimes.

Specifically a gimmick for the phantoms in Judgment.
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Zeus posted...

Specifically a gimmick for the phantoms in Judgment.

Uh, could you be a little more specific?

Thanks, guys. Surprised by all of the responses.

Just one more question (for now):

For the card Spontaneous Mutation, it says that "enchanted creature gets -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard". Does this mean the -X gets higher if more cards are added into the graveyard, or does it stay the same from when it was cast?
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KishinZephrite posted...

Thanks, guys. Surprised by all of the responses.

Just one more question (for now):

For the card Spontaneous Mutation, it says that "enchanted creature gets -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard". Does this mean the -X gets higher if more cards are added into the graveyard, or does it stay the same from when it was cast?

It constantly changes.

If you do have questions, feel free to go here:
http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/

It's with official MtG Judges, who are happy to help out any sort of questions you have.

KishinZephrite posted...

Thanks, guys. Surprised by all of the responses.

Just one more question (for now):

For the card Spontaneous Mutation, it says that "enchanted creature gets -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard". Does this mean the -X gets higher if more cards are added into the graveyard, or does it stay the same from when it was cast?

Yes, it goes down as more cards go into your graveyard (same with any other similar effects - Drove of Elves, for instance, has a power and toughness equal to the number of green permanents you control; play more green permanents and they got stronger and tougher).
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shadowsword87 posted...

KishinZephrite posted...

Thanks, guys. Surprised by all of the responses.

Just one more question (for now):

For the card Spontaneous Mutation, it says that "enchanted creature gets -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard". Does this mean the -X gets higher if more cards are added into the graveyard, or does it stay the same from when it was cast?

It constantly changes.

If you do have questions, feel free to go here:
http://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/

It's with official MtG Judges, who are happy to help out any sort of questions you have.

Thanks. I'll check it out.
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Don't ask them, keep asking here! Way more fun for us.

I just got rid of my old decks and made four new ones two nights ago

Haha, ok! I just don't want to be that mtg noob/pest around these parts.

I actually just got back into after not playing for 10 years or so. I bought a Kaladesh deck builder's toolkit and I started building decks again. I'm working on a blue deck now.
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Sure, the creature will die. I miss my MTG days...
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shadowsword87 posted...

Zeus posted...

Specifically a gimmick for the phantoms in Judgment.

Uh, could you be a little more specific?

I probably could have phrased that better. I meant it as more of a "case-in-point" since the phantom gimmick used depleting +1/+1 counters which effectively made them unkillable through damage but they died if they lost their counters or a buff which would naturally put them in a X/0 state. It was a good example of a 0 toughness killing a creature.
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Also note that going to the graveyard in this method doesn't count as "being destroyed" when applicable
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Ok, here's another one that's been bugging me.

For cards like Fleeting Image which is a 2/1 flyer with an ability and casting cost of 2 (no tap) that reads "Return Fleeting Image to owner's hand". Can I bait the opponent to use a card like fireball on it and then return this card to my hand, or will the fireball hit regardless?
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KishinZephrite posted...

Ok, here's another one that's been bugging me.

For cards like Fleeting Image which is a 2/1 flyer with an ability and casting cost of 2 (no tap) that reads "Return Fleeting Image to owner's hand". Can I bait the opponent to use a card like fireball on it and then return this card to my hand, or will the fireball hit regardless?

It's all about the stack. Whatever the last thing played happens first, so if he uses fireball, and then you use his ability, the ability happens first and he goes back to your hand and the fireball has nothing to hit.

But if you use your ability and then he uses his fireball, the fireball hits first and your creature has damage done to it first.

Also keep in mind that the fireball will still hit other targets even if you do it in response to the fireball, unless the fireball was set on just one target being the fleeting image.
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KishinZephrite posted...

Thanks, guys. Surprised by all of the responses.

Just one more question (for now):

For the card Spontaneous Mutation, it says that "enchanted creature gets -X/-0, where X is the number of cards in your graveyard". Does this mean the -X gets higher if more cards are added into the graveyard, or does it stay the same from when it was cast?

This is a state-based action, so it updates every time the board state updates, which is on resolution of every spell/ability, and every time a player passes priority (I think).

In layman's terms: Yes, every time something goes into your graveyard, this updates.
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KishinZephrite posted...

Ok, here's another one that's been bugging me.

For cards like Fleeting Image which is a 2/1 flyer with an ability and casting cost of 2 (no tap) that reads "Return Fleeting Image to owner's hand". Can I bait the opponent to use a card like fireball on it and then return this card to my hand, or will the fireball hit regardless?

Yes.

Abilities/spells are put onto a thing called "the stack". Think of it as a giant pile of abilities/spells, with each spell being put on top of the previous one, and only one being placed at a time. Once each player is done putting things on the stack, they resolve top down.

So if the first player casts fireball onto the creature, that goes onto the bottom of the stack. Then, you use the ability to return it to your hand. That goes onto the stack directly on top of fireball. Now no players have any more abilities to add to the stack, so the stack begins resolving:

First, your ability resolves. This returns the creature to your hand.
Next, fireball attempts to resolve. However, the creature it targets is no longer on the battlefield. Targets are chosen on cast and can't be changed afterwards, so because the spell has no legal targets anymore, it is countered and put into the graveyard.

Another thing to note: Your opponent can only cast fireball if he has priority. If it is your turn, you are considered the "active player" and he only gets priority after you do something. Generally, this is either 1) after you put something on the stack (so cast a spell, or activate an ability) or 2) after you pass to new steps/phases. For example, if you are moving from your upkeep to main phase 1, your opponent has chance to act and cast instants at the end of your upkeep, because they gain priority when switching. Another common example is in combat: After declare attacks and declare blocks, both players have a chance to cast instants (starting with the active player, then passing priority to the non active player as phases transition).

So here's an example scenario:
You: Combat - swing with my 2/1
Enemy: In response, I'll cast fireball on the 2/1
You: I'll activate its ability to return it to my hand.

In this scenario, the creature returns to your hand, and no combat damage is taken by your opponent.
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Oh, also, you can only respond with instants/abilities (abilities are generally considered instant speed unless otherwise stated).
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That_70s_show posted...

So here's an example scenario:
You: Combat - swing with my 2/1
Enemy: In response, I'll cast fireball on the 2/1
You: I'll activate its ability to return it to my hand.

Pretty hard to cast Fireball in combat since its a sorcery. Fireball is actually a horrible example to use with Shimmering Image since it is a Sorcery that can potentially hit multiple targets.
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Fireball is a bad example, but his point still stands.. just change it to lightning bolt or something.

That_70s_show posted...

Oh, also, you can only respond with instants/abilities (abilities are generally considered instant speed unless otherwise stated).

Or something with flash

Oops, didn't know fireball was a sorcery. I must have been thinking of Fireblast or something.
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That_70s_show posted...

Oops, didn't know fireball was a sorcery. I must have been thinking of Fireblast or something.

We will just pretend that Vedalken Orrery was in play lol.
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So whether it's a sorcery or an instant, the Fleeting Image can still respond and will have priority after the opponent attempts to kill it even if it's tapped?
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KishinZephrite posted...

So whether it's a sorcery or an instant, the Fleeting Image can still respond and will have priority after the opponent attempts to kill it even if it's tapped?

Yes. Creature abilities are instants unless they say "only use anytime you can use a sorcery" or something along those lines.

Yes if you have mana to pay its ability its a pretty hard creature to kill.
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KishinZephrite posted...

So whether it's a sorcery or an instant, the Fleeting Image can still respond and will have priority after the opponent attempts to kill it even if it's tapped?

Yes, although beware your opponent can respond to your response and that will go on top of the stack. For instance:

You: I'll attack with Fleeting Image
Me: I'll cast Lightning Bolt on Fleeting Image
You: I'll use Fleeting Image's ability to return it to my hand
Me: I'll cast a second Lightning Bolt on Fleeting Image

Again, the stack resolves top-down, so my second lightning bolt would resolve first, which would destroy Fleeting Image. Fleeting Image's ability, my first lightning bolt, and the initial attack would then all attempt to resolve (in that order), but none of them have valid targets anymore, so all of them would fizzle (i.e. fail to resolve and, in the case of the lightning bolt, get moved to the graveyard).

Note also that spell/ability costs are paid at the time of casting, not the time of spell resolution, so if you wanted to dodge the second lightning bolt, you would have to pay an additional 1U (for a total of 2UU) to trigger Fleeting Image's ability a second time.
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Also note that there is a keyword called "Split Second" - any spell with Split Second bypasses the stack and takes effect instantly; your opponent does not get a chance to respond to it or counter its effects.

So for instance, if I played Sudden Shock (Split Second, deals 2 damage to target creature or player), you would not be able to use Fleeting Image's ability to save it.
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Huh, I've never heard of split second. Is that a new thing or one of those abilities they tried to do then abandoned like snow covered lands and such?

MICHALCOLE posted...

Huh, I've never heard of split second. Is that a new thing or one of those abilities they tried to do then abandoned like snow covered lands and such?

Split Second was from Time Spiral block. So it's 11 years old. Only like 20 cards have it though.

https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Split_second
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702.60a Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. “Split second” means “As long as this spell is on the stack, players can’t cast other spells or activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities.”

702.60b Players may activate mana abilities and take special actions while a spell with split second is on the stack. Triggered abilities trigger and are put on the stack as normal while a spell with split second is on the stack.

I can see why they didn't keep going with that ability. Seems like it could get confusing as fuck.

They mainly stopped using it because it's uninteractive.
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MICHALCOLE posted...

702.60a Split second is a static ability that functions only while the spell with split second is on the stack. “Split second” means “As long as this spell is on the stack, players can’t cast other spells or activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities.”

702.60b Players may activate mana abilities and take special actions while a spell with split second is on the stack. Triggered abilities trigger and are put on the stack as normal while a spell with split second is on the stack.

I can see why they didn't keep going with that ability. Seems like it could get confusing as fuck.

Don't worry, you can flip a morph in response to a card with split second though! Flipping a morph is a special action.

You can also take off your pants in response to a card with split second.

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4a3z87/funny_card_rulings/d0xayjt/
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That_70s_show posted...

You can also take off your pants in response to a card with split second.

https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/4a3z87/funny_card_rulings/d0xayjt/

I love that.

I love magic.

That_70s_show posted...

Split Second was from Time Spiral block. So it's 11 years old.

Thanks for making me feel old...

MICHALCOLE posted...

I can see why they didn't keep going with that ability. Seems like it could get confusing as fuck.

Well, they've kept going with Regeneration and Protection, which have been two historically misunderstood abilities (Regeneration in particular - I think that's why they started printing the descriptor text for it again). Granted, those ones might be subject to the grandfather clause, given how old they are now...
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That_70s_show posted...

They mainly stopped using it because it's uninteractive.

Well its also super good, it's better than uncounterable spells, because you can't respond at all.
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Monopoman posted...

That_70s_show posted...

They mainly stopped using it because it's uninteractive.

Well its also super good, it's better than uncounterable spells, because you can't respond at all.

It can be chaliced though!
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darkknight109 posted...

That_70s_show posted...

Split Second was from Time Spiral block. So it's 11 years old.

Thanks for making me feel old...

MICHALCOLE posted...

I can see why they didn't keep going with that ability. Seems like it could get confusing as fuck.

Well, they've kept going with Regeneration and Protection, which have been two historically misunderstood abilities (Regeneration in particular - I think that's why they started printing the descriptor text for it again). Granted, those ones might be subject to the grandfather clause, given how old they are now...

Wizards has actually phasing out regeneration and replacing it with indestructible. This has been going on since Oath of the Gatewatch I believe.
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irl magic is pay-to-win. loved playing duels of the planeswalker series though.
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

irl magic is pay-to-win. loved playing duels of the planeswalker series though.

Rarity based balance was legitimately fair prior to the internet since having powerful cards was lucky in the first place. Now you CAN just buy them.
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Lokarin posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

irl magic is pay-to-win. loved playing duels of the planeswalker series though.

Rarity based balance was legitimately fair prior to the internet since having powerful cards was lucky in the first place. Now you CAN just buy them.

Nah its always been about buying your way into the good decks. Shit even when the game first came out people bought tons of packs to have a better deck then their friends. It's why the game was such a huge success just after it came out.

Even when the Internet wasn't a thing the only difference was you went to a local card shop to buy singles of the cards you needed. The game is not truly pay-2-win though its pay to compete. If you want to be in the competitive world of MTG you need the best decks and cards period. The skill cap on the game is very high you could give some new player every card in the game and pair him off against a seasoned veteran and the veteran will school that new player 90+% of the time.
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Monopoman posted...

. If you want to be in the competitive world of MTG you need the best decks and cards period.

There are other tournament formats, such as Booster Draft which is rather crazy.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/lo/basics-booster-draft-2014-11-03
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Lokarin posted...

Monopoman posted...

. If you want to be in the competitive world of MTG you need the best decks and cards period.

There are other tournament formats, such as Booster Draft which is rather crazy.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/lo/basics-booster-draft-2014-11-03

Right but like I said if you want to say work towards being a pro or just want to play in most tournaments and compete, you need cards to build decks and to be good at draft. Sure if you want the cheapest route to tournaments then draft is a good way to get there, but that is a format that probably favors the veterans even more than constructed does.
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Monopoman posted...

Right but like I said if you want to say work towards being a pro or just want to play in most tournaments and compete, you need cards to build decks and to be good at draft. Sure if you want the cheapest route to tournaments then draft is a good way to get there, but that is a format that probably favors the veterans even more than constructed does.

You can just have fun without trying to be a professional, a you know that, right?

I've been playing for 20 years.
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shadowsword87 posted...

Monopoman posted...

Right but like I said if you want to say work towards being a pro or just want to play in most tournaments and compete, you need cards to build decks and to be good at draft. Sure if you want the cheapest route to tournaments then draft is a good way to get there, but that is a format that probably favors the veterans even more than constructed does.

You can just have fun without trying to be a professional, a you know that, right?

Yep, I am just talking about the tournament scene so people understand what its like. Some people are fine with just playing at the kitchen table with some friends, others want to do well in tournaments.
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