Poll of the Day > If appearance has nothing to do with gender identity, isn't it wrong to assume..

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Metro2
07/20/17 9:09:24 AM
#1:


...ANYONE's gender?
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MrMelodramatic
07/20/17 9:09:41 AM
#2:


Yes
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Troll_Police_
07/20/17 9:10:31 AM
#3:


If that statement were true then sure
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PK_Spam
07/20/17 9:15:49 AM
#4:


I mean, people don't HONESTY get upset if you call them the wrong gender once. They get upset when you keep doing it even though they prefer to be called something else.

People getting steamed about an honest mistake is just a meme
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Kyuubi4269
07/20/17 9:25:34 AM
#5:


PK_Spam posted...
People getting steamed about an honest mistake is just a millenial

Fix'd.
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I've seen some stuff
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What_The_Chris
07/20/17 9:30:18 AM
#6:


damn millenials ruined everything
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NinjaGhosts
07/20/17 9:31:39 AM
#7:


arv called this women sir because she looked like a guy arv was at work too
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adjl
07/20/17 9:40:39 AM
#8:


PK_Spam posted...
I mean, people don't HONESTY get upset if you call them the wrong gender once. They get upset when you keep doing it even though they prefer to be called something else.

People getting steamed about an honest mistake is just a meme


Pretty much. Exceptions exist, as with everything, but this notion that absolutely every non-standard-gendered person will tear you a new one for making an incorrect assumption has no basis in reality, and largely comes from oversensitive people with a pathological aversion to being politely corrected.

Think of it like handedness: The vast majority of the population is right-handed, so assuming that somebody is right-handed until stated or demonstrated otherwise is pretty reasonable. If they tell you they're left-handed, though, it's very simple to say "oh, okay," and not buy them right-handed scissors or expect them to sit at righty desks moving forward. If you say "no you're not use your right hand and stop trying to be a special snowflake," you're an asshole.
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dedbus
07/20/17 1:20:35 PM
#9:


That's a good analogy except you assume they hold scissors with their hands and not their stomach crevice and you're a racist bigot to think otherwise.
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The_Beta_Male
07/20/17 1:35:46 PM
#10:


dedbus posted...
That's a good analogy except you assume they hold scissors with their hands and not their stomach crevice and you're a racist bigot to think otherwise.


this

people have gotten along fine for millennia by being normal and assuming normalcy in things that are supposed to be normal--the whole trend of getting "triggered" over such trivial nonsense as being referred to as a gender OTHER than the one you're trying to be is a relatively new thing and hopefully dies out like the fad it is within a decade or so
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Unfernal_Server
07/20/17 1:40:14 PM
#11:


PK_Spam posted...
People getting steamed about an honest mistake is just a meme


Yep, a meme mostly perpetuated by mad dudes online that don't interact with the public much. The best course of action is usually to just ask these dudes how much they've interacted with trans people. It's pretty obvious that they just let reddit circlejerks inform their reality.
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Far-Queue
07/20/17 1:42:48 PM
#12:


NinjaGhosts posted...
arv called this women sir because she looked like a guy arv was at work too

Is the arv account in purg or did you just post from the wrong account?
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TheCyborgNinja
07/20/17 2:14:58 PM
#13:


Or easily butthurt losers can chill the hell out. People need real problems, like fear of nuclear annihilation.
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PK_Spam
07/20/17 3:59:27 PM
#14:


The_Beta_Male posted...
dedbus posted...
That's a good analogy except you assume they hold scissors with their hands and not their stomach crevice and you're a racist bigot to think otherwise.


this

people have gotten along fine for millennia by being normal and assuming normalcy in things that are supposed to be normal--the whole trend of getting "triggered" over such trivial nonsense as being referred to as a gender OTHER than the one you're trying to be is a relatively new thing and hopefully dies out like the fad it is within a decade or so

People use this same argument for gay people too.

The truth is, people also spent millennia hiding who they were for fear of being ostracized. People have always been this way, and there have always been trans people. They just couldn't be vocal about it.
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ZiggiStardust
07/20/17 4:03:17 PM
#15:


Troll_Police_ posted...
If that statement were true then sure

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shadowsword87
07/20/17 4:05:43 PM
#16:


adjl posted...
Pretty much. Exceptions exist, as with everything, but this notion that absolutely every non-standard-gendered person will tear you a new one for making an incorrect assumption has no basis in reality, and largely comes from oversensitive people with a pathological aversion to being politely corrected.


Also it's normally pretty cool if you have a slip up every once in a while, it's just dickish to have the majority of pronouns in the wrong camp by choice.
Like if you get it wrong, go "oh crap, sorry", and then move on, it's much better and life moves on.
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The_Beta_Male
07/20/17 4:28:18 PM
#17:


PK_Spam posted...
The_Beta_Male posted...
dedbus posted...
That's a good analogy except you assume they hold scissors with their hands and not their stomach crevice and you're a racist bigot to think otherwise.


this

people have gotten along fine for millennia by being normal and assuming normalcy in things that are supposed to be normal--the whole trend of getting "triggered" over such trivial nonsense as being referred to as a gender OTHER than the one you're trying to be is a relatively new thing and hopefully dies out like the fad it is within a decade or so

People use this same argument for gay people too.

The truth is, people also spent millennia hiding who they were for fear of being ostracized. People have always been this way, and there have always been trans people. They just couldn't be vocal about it.


yes and there was a lot less hostility and hatred coming from both sides so why bother changing it
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MrMelodramatic
07/20/17 7:20:10 PM
#18:


in what world was there less hostility towards gays and trans people in the past than there is right now?
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keyblader1985
07/20/17 7:29:45 PM
#19:


Ancient Greece/Rome?
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The_Beta_Male
07/20/17 7:29:54 PM
#20:


MrMelodramatic posted...
in what world was there less hostility towards gays and trans people in the past than there is right now?


look bro some things are just best left unspoken; that's how the past was superior, imo. hate crimes have been going on since the dawn of humanity and that hasn't changed today, so really the situation is exactly the same as it was in the past, only now everyone and their grandmother is transgender and they literally can't stop fucking talking about it
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/20/17 10:59:46 PM
#21:


No, but it's wrong to get offended over it.
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adjl
07/20/17 11:06:17 PM
#22:


The_Beta_Male posted...
yes and there was a lot less hostility and hatred coming from both sides so why bother changing it


Because suffering in silence is worse than suffering less, less quietly. If you want people to shut up about it, stop opposing it, and stop other people from opposing it. It's really that simple; the only reason anyone is aggressively pro-lgbt is because anti-lgbt people exist.
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DirtBasedSoap
07/20/17 11:16:17 PM
#23:


there's only like 700k transgender people in the US so im not really sure why everyone is freaking out
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Kungfu Kenobi
07/20/17 11:24:54 PM
#24:


adjl posted...
PK_Spam posted...
I mean, people don't HONESTY get upset if you call them the wrong gender once. They get upset when you keep doing it even though they prefer to be called something else.

People getting steamed about an honest mistake is just a meme


Pretty much. Exceptions exist, as with everything, but this notion that absolutely every non-standard-gendered person will tear you a new one for making an incorrect assumption has no basis in reality, and largely comes from oversensitive people with a pathological aversion to being politely corrected.

Think of it like handedness: The vast majority of the population is right-handed, so assuming that somebody is right-handed until stated or demonstrated otherwise is pretty reasonable. If they tell you they're left-handed, though, it's very simple to say "oh, okay," and not buy them right-handed scissors or expect them to sit at righty desks moving forward. If you say "no you're not use your right hand and stop trying to be a special snowflake," you're an asshole.


Except that left handed people generally try to adapt to a right handed world unless there's some reason they can't. They don't insist we use their left handed scisors. Gender snowflakes could learn a lot from lefties.
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dainkinkaide
07/21/17 12:09:42 AM
#25:


Kungfu Kenobi posted...
adjl posted...
Think of it like handedness: The vast majority of the population is right-handed, so assuming that somebody is right-handed until stated or demonstrated otherwise is pretty reasonable. If they tell you they're left-handed, though, it's very simple to say "oh, okay," and not buy them right-handed scissors or expect them to sit at righty desks moving forward. If you say "no you're not use your right hand and stop trying to be a special snowflake," you're an asshole.


Except that left handed people generally try to adapt to a right handed world unless there's some reason they can't. They don't insist we use their left handed scisors. Gender snowflakes could learn a lot from lefties.

That analogy really got away from you, huh?

See, the scissors in adjl's analogy are representing the pronouns one chooses to identify by. Ergo, in your complete failure of a counterargument you're implying that transgender/non-binary/genderqueer individuals are forcing cisgender people to be referred to by the various pronouns most associated with said non-cisgendered people, which is the exact opposite of what's actually happening in almost every conceivable way.
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Kungfu Kenobi
07/21/17 1:10:35 AM
#26:


dainkinkaide posted...
Kungfu Kenobi posted...
adjl posted...
Think of it like handedness: The vast majority of the population is right-handed, so assuming that somebody is right-handed until stated or demonstrated otherwise is pretty reasonable. If they tell you they're left-handed, though, it's very simple to say "oh, okay," and not buy them right-handed scissors or expect them to sit at righty desks moving forward. If you say "no you're not use your right hand and stop trying to be a special snowflake," you're an asshole.


Except that left handed people generally try to adapt to a right handed world unless there's some reason they can't. They don't insist we use their left handed scisors. Gender snowflakes could learn a lot from lefties.

That analogy really got away from you, huh?

See, the scissors in adjl's analogy are representing the pronouns one chooses to identify by. Ergo, in your complete failure of a counterargument you're implying that transgender/non-binary/genderqueer individuals are forcing cisgender people to be referred to by the various pronouns most associated with said non-cisgendered people, which is the exact opposite of what's actually happening in almost every conceivable way.


I had to take liberties with a mangled analogy in order to make it work. Words are tools, scissors are tools, and tools are best understood in with the verb "use" not "give". You use words, you don't give them. Ya' follow?

So try to keep up here: people are being insisted open to use left handed tools, and many right handed people (and a surprising and growing number of lefties like myself) aren't sure those tools are the best ones for the job.
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dainkinkaide
07/21/17 2:06:07 AM
#27:


Kungfu Kenobi posted...
I had to take liberties with a mangled analogy in order to make it work. Words are tools, scissors are tools, and tools are best understood in with the verb "use" not "give". You use words, you don't give them. Ya' follow?

The analogy is not the simple scissors:pronouns. It's the acts themselves within the given contexts that are analogous.

To wit, in the analogy adjl used, giving someone scissors (with the implied intent that they are to use them) or making them use desks that do not work well with their dominant hand is analogous to referring to someone by pronouns that do not align with their gender identity.

In your ridiculously bad counterargument, you stated that cisgender people are being forced to use scissors that do not work well with their dominant hand, ergo, within the bounds of the original analogy, you are implying that cisgender people are being forced to identify by pronouns (i.e. are being referred to by pronouns) that do not align with their gender identity, i.e. that there exists a growing number of cases where cisgender men are being referred to as "she" or where cisgender women are being referred to as "he".

Essentially, what you failed to notice was that the analogous terms were entire phrases and contexts, and not simply the nouns in those phrases. Then, in failing to comprehend what the actual analogy was, you made yourself look the fool.

Kungfu Kenobi posted...
So try to keep up here: people are being insisted open to use left handed tools, and many right handed people (and a surprising and growing number of lefties like myself) aren't sure those tools are the best ones for the job.

See, this is a better counter analogy than your first attempt. The terms of your analogy are clear. Although, in attempting to tie your counter analogy to the original analogy using some of the same nouns, you run afoul of confusing the reader.

In your analogy, "left-handed tools" is analogous to "non-standard pronouns". In adjl's analogy, and it bears repeating just to make sure you get it, "making someone use right-handed tools (e.g. scissors, desks) when they are left-handed" is analogous to "referring to someone by male pronouns when they identify as female, female pronouns when they identify as male, or standard pronouns when they identify as a non-standard gender".

Adjl's argument implicitly states, by analogy, that a non-cisgender individual can deal with being referred to by the wrong pronouns, much as a left-handed person can deal with using right-handed scissors or right-handed desks, but in both cases, it's a huge dick move to force them to deal with it when you're fully aware that you're specifically inconveniencing them.

Your argument implicitly states, by analogy and comparison to adjl's analogy, that people can use non-standard pronouns, much as people can use left-handed tools, but because you don't personally agree with the tools/pronouns being used, that justifies pulling a dick move.
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The_Beta_Male
07/21/17 2:27:01 AM
#28:


adjl posted...
The_Beta_Male posted...
yes and there was a lot less hostility and hatred coming from both sides so why bother changing it


Because suffering in silence is worse than suffering less, less quietly. If you want people to shut up about it, stop opposing it, and stop other people from opposing it. It's really that simple; the only reason anyone is aggressively pro-lgbt is because anti-lgbt people exist.


ah yes, the only way is your way b/c that's the right one, right? everyone that disagrees with you must submit; it's the only way, you said so yourself

tsk tsk tsk
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Kungfu Kenobi
07/21/17 2:59:48 AM
#29:


dainkinkaide posted...
Then, in failing to comprehend what the actual analogy was, you made yourself look the fool.


I don't identify as a fool, and you're committing a "dick move" by using that word.

>_>
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/21/17 8:25:04 PM
#30:


If pronouns have nothing to do with gender identity, isn't it wrong to think their use makes assumptions about anyone's gender?
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Kana
07/21/17 8:48:54 PM
#31:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
If pronouns have nothing to do with gender identity, isn't it wrong to think their use makes assumptions about anyone's gender?

It's one of those things where it's pretty safe to assume, but in the occasional instances where it's not correct, you simply correct and move on. There's no really simple way to convey your pronouns to someone if they're not conventional (real life isn't twitter where you can just put 'em in your bio).
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Nade Duck
07/21/17 8:51:49 PM
#32:


Far-Queue posted...
NinjaGhosts posted...
arv called this women sir because she looked like a guy arv was at work too

Is the arv account in purg or did you just post from the wrong account?

fuckin told you guys it was a fake.
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adjl
07/21/17 10:04:02 PM
#33:


The_Beta_Male posted...
ah yes, the only way is your way b/c that's the right one, right?


Well, yeah. If you feel my way isn't right, you're welcome to provide some sort of well-reasoned argument as to why, but until such a time as I'm given reason to believe otherwise, I'm going to continue acting as though I'm right. If you cannot demonstrate that your position is better, you should really reevaluate your position in favour of mine, since that means mine's obviously more defensible.

It's quite simple.

Kungfu Kenobi posted...
Except that left handed people generally try to adapt to a right handed world unless there's some reason they can't. They don't insist we use their left handed scisors.


Nobody's insisting you use lefty scissors. Just that you shouldn't give lefties right-handed scissors when you know they're left-handed and have lefty ones available. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/21/17 10:21:56 PM
#34:


Kana posted...
you simply correct and move on

That would be wrong. Pronouns have no correlation to how the individual self identifies. Pronouns are based on how others perceive the individual. Similar to the honorifics used in Japanese, pronouns refer to a trait that can be observed by the speaker. Gender identity is not an observable trait.
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Kungfu Kenobi
07/21/17 10:39:33 PM
#35:


adjl posted...
Nobody's insisting you use lefty scissors. Just that you shouldn't give lefties right-handed scissors when you know they're left-handed and have lefty ones available. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable.


Yes, dain went to considerable lengths to explain your mangled analogy. But we're talking about words, and words, like scissors are used, not given.

But I can understand the analogy in more abstract terms of "giving" some "desired object", and not some undesired object... fair enough

BUT I AM NOT UNDER ANY OBLIGATION TO GIVE ANYONE ANYTHING AT ALL



So when someone tells me that I have to give them this desired object, that is NOT reasonable because the baseline presumption is that they are owed anything at all which is false.
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Kana
07/22/17 12:19:49 AM
#37:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That would be wrong. Pronouns have no correlation to how the individual self identifies. Pronouns are based on how others perceive the individual. Similar to the honorifics used in Japanese, pronouns refer to a trait that can be observed by the speaker. Gender identity is not an observable trait.

That is not correct. When someone asserts a pronoun preference, it's largely irrelevant to how they identify or present or whatever, although in a lot of cases there's a correlation (most people who identify as male will accept 'he', female 'she', etc). Japanese honorifics are not comparable because they have a specific context (100% of the time) and are not interchangeable. If you wanted to make a comparison to Japanese, a much better place to start would be self-identifying pronouns (boku, watashi, etc). Boku is largely considered a masculine pronoun, watashi is feminine, but they are not rigid.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/22/17 12:53:30 AM
#38:


When someone asserts a pronoun preference, it's largely irrelevant to how they identify or present or whatever

You misunderstand. I'm not saying the speaker has a pronoun preference. I'm saying that the preference of the individual being spoken to is irrelevant to which pronoun is used by the speaker.

Japanese honorifics are not comparable because they have a specific context (100% of the time) and are not interchangeable.

English pronouns have a specific context (100% of the time) and are not interchangeable.
Say mister to a man.
Say miss to a woman.
Say missus to a married woman.
Say sir to someone who has be knighted.
Say doctor to someone who has an academic degree above master.
We have more words that replace a persons name such as he and him that can be interchanged with mister but the context with which these words are used always remain the same.

a much better place to start would be self-identifying pronouns (boku, watashi, etc). Boku is largely considered a masculine pronoun, watashi is feminine, but they are not rigid.

That's actually a contrast. English doesn't use self-identifying pronouns in that way. I, me, myself are neutral in regard to masculinity or femininity.
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Kana
07/22/17 12:56:13 AM
#39:


Mister/miss/etc are not pronouns, they are honorifics. Which are not interchangeable, as I already stated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_honorifics

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
That's actually a contrast. English doesn't use self-identifying pronouns in that way. I, me, myself are neutral in regard to masculinity or femininity.

It's still a thing, and it's more relevant to a pronoun discussion than honorifics are.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/22/17 1:46:16 AM
#40:


Kana posted...
Which are not interchangeable, as I already stated.

I thought you saying that Japanese honorifics were not comparable on the basis they are specific and not interchangeable. I was thus arguing that they are comparable since English pronouns have specific, non-interchangeable uses as well.

Kana posted...
It's still a thing, and it's more relevant to a pronoun discussion than honorifics are.

Yes, relevant to demonstrating the point I was already making.

Masculine and feminine aren't part of self-identifying pronouns any more than one's mood or level of hunger is indicated. The individual already knows these things about them self, and it is unnecessary to convey them unless these aspects are the immediate subject of discussion. If people projected a disembodied voice and it was more difficult to recognize who was speaking we night need this. Generally, people can tell who is speaking to them.

He, him, she, her are used by a secondary speaker to describe the recognizable traits of an individual. If one observer visually identifies a specific trait it's likely another observer will agree with the first observer. Thus if one person points and says "look at him". they can both agree that the individual to look at is in that direction and has masculine traits. This helps to identify the person to look at without formally addressing them.

If the first observer knows that the individual to look at has been knighted and has the the family name of Kettle yet the other observer does not posses this information then "look at Sir Kettle" would not be as helpful in identifying the individual. Further if Sir Kettle prefers to be called her and the first observer knows this yet the second observer does not then "look at her" would in fact eliminate Sir Kettle as the person to identify.

Therefore the traits of a pronoun cannot be defined by the individual. They must be defined by the speaker referencing the individual.
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