Poll of the Day > Best starter Pokemon out of all of the starter Pokemon last poll of round three

(+) Yeah! (+)

Chimchar: http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/2016/09/starter-pokemon-chimchar.gif

Mudkip:
http://pa1.narvii.com/6075/45d739c3539c5250771c701c41c6986f4a1bd4c7_hq.gif



Round three results:
Bulbasaur defeats Totodile 28-27
Charmander defeats Pikachu 35-20

Round two results:
Mudkip defereteeterd Litten 35-15
Pikachu defeats Froakie 24-19
Chimchar defeats Snivy 18-17
Charmander defeats Squirtle 28-17
Bulbasaur defeats Torchic 20-10

Round one results:
Bulbasaur defeated Turtwig 35-14
Charmander defeats Treecko 23-9
Totodile defeatered Chespin 61-9
Torchic defeaters Chikorita 23-15
Chimchar defeatios Tepig 24-17
Squirtle deferred Cyndaquil 22-13
Snivy dofeats Fennekin 30-28
Froakie derferts Rowlet 23-19
Litten defeets Popplio 20-9
Mudkips duhfeeted Piplup 27-16
Pikachu dieferted Oshawott 28-12

For meme's sake, I would be shook if Mudkip lost
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The classic battle of 4th gen.
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funkyfritter posted...

The classic battle of 4th gen.

mudkip was gen 3
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Mudkip, although I like Chimchar's look more. Mudkip and his evos were incredibly useful although Chimchar is a all-around great stater.
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I just don't like monkeys that much.
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Zeus posted...

Mudkip and his evos

I can't seem to find the poll option for Mudkip's evos, can you point me in the right direction?
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Mudkip for three reasons:

1) Fuck the chimchar line for copying Torchic.

2) 3rd gen best gen

3) While I accepted that genwunners are going to take the contest from the very start, if I were to ignore that I'd argue Mudkip has a better chance against whoever next round. If Torchic couldn't do it, Chimchar sure as shit won't. Chimchar only got this far on really weak opponents.
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Moving onto the previous discussion before the topic was rudely closed...

Muffinz0rz posted...

I never said they aren't unique Pokemon, but they're still Pokemon, just as any other. It's just three type-specific starters with two evolutions each, in succession by pokedex number. You choose one at the beginning of the game. There's nothing special about them, other than the fact that they are your starters. As I said, they're not special. They're dex numbers. There are plenty of other 3 form Pokemon who can't be encountered in the wild. But they're no less unique than the starters but for one instance, and that's because they can be chosen at the beginning of the game. They are not "designed" any differently than any other 3 form Pokemon.

The only reason the starters work like that (base form with evos, type triangle, etc.) is because that's literally how the entire series started. It also acts as a tutorial for those who are new to the series (if that's even possible these days). I highly doubt that will ever change.

No, they're clearly designed differently. There's more emphasis put into balance (which is partly why have have a higher average overall stat total compared to most 3-forms) whereas other 3-forms might have more specialization or a flukier design. Plus they're *very* different from many other 3-forms since quite a few of them require an item, a special action (trade), or a happiness quota to evolve.

Hell, you even admit how different they are in your second paragraph!

Muffinz0rz posted...

As far as the game and its data are concerned, it is a completely different Pokemon. Different dex number, different stats, different EXP scale, etc. Then it carries over nickname and moves and level for obvious consistency. But again, any value of keeping your starter is purely sentimental. It's a different Pokemon.

Except it is the same Pokemon, even if the form changes. All the personalization carries over. The IVs carry over. The EVs carry over. It's the same Pokemon.

Muffinz0rz posted...

The bolded part is what the topic is about. Your mind filled in the rest. Everything after the bold was added by you, not TC. The topic is not about "choosing starter pokemon and evolutions."

Let me put it this way - people are allowed to consider evolutionary lines just as much as movepools and stats. But factoring the evolutionary lines effectively contaminates the entire poll series because people aren't voting for Charmander - they're voting for Charizard. We won't know if people like Charmander more than Pikachu, because they aren't voting for Charmander.

Except for the fact that when pressed for additional detail in the first topic, he mentioned that we should consider everything. And you literally can't consider a starter Pokemon without looking at its evos because that would be like ignoring its type, moves, or stats. And keep in mind that its moves and stats also change as the game goes on, just like its form.

Muffinz0rz posted...

for the purpose of this specific poll, a blind approach to evolutions is appropriate.

But why we would go into the poll blind when we don't go into the games blind? That makes no sense.

Muffinz0rz posted...

The bolded word defeats your case. He doesn't give you a Charizard. I wouldn't deny that he does "effectively" give you a Charizard. Except he doesn't "literally" give you a Charizard. Therein lies the difference, and it's a crucial difference - you start with a Charmander.

Which again, is silly semantics. By that logic, you should ONLY look at the moves and stats they have at level 5 rather while completely ignoring everything they learn later on.
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Veedrock- posted...

1) Fuck the chimchar line for copying Torchic.

Well, the Torchic family also had access to flying moves (and was broadly superior). But it is kinda weird because fire/fighting is the only time a combo type was repeated in 7 gens now. It's either been pure typing or a one-off.

Veedrock- posted...

3) While I accepted that genwunners are going to take the contest from the very start, if I were to ignore that I'd argue Mudkip has a better chance against whoever next round. If Torchic couldn't do it, Chimchar sure as shit won't. Chimchar only got this far on really weak opponents.

tbh, Mudkip is probably the most recognized non-gen1 starter thanks to all of the memes.
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Can Chimchar come back?!

MICHALECOLE posted...

Can Chimchar come back?!

Well, we're at 24 votes and the last 2 rounds closed at 55 votes each, anything's possible.
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Zeus posted...

No, they're clearly designed differently. There's more emphasis put into balance (which is partly why have have a higher average overall stat total compared to most 3-forms) whereas other 3-forms might have more specialization or a flukier design. Plus they're *very* different from many other 3-forms since quite a few of them require an item, a special action (trade), or a happiness quota to evolve.

Hell, you even admit how different they are in your second paragraph!

One could argue that higher stats and easy evolution requirements are just another aspect of any random Pokemon design. Secondly, I fail to see how simply leveling up to evolve classifies as "very different" - the very core of Pokemon is to level up and evolve.

Zeus posted...

Except it is the same Pokemon, even if the form changes. All the personalization carries over. The IVs carry over. The EVs carry over. It's the same Pokemon.

Charmander evolves into Charmeleon. Charmander is not Charmeleon. Therefore, it's not the same Pokemon. From the game's perspective, it's a different Pokemon with consistent stats to reflect the evolution from its prior state.

Zeus posted...

Except for the fact that when pressed for additional detail in the first topic, he mentioned that we should consider everything. And you literally can't consider a starter Pokemon without looking at its evos because that would be like ignoring its type, moves, or stats. And keep in mind that its moves and stats also change as the game goes on, just like its form.

I didn't see that. But if @MICHALECOLE confirms that evolution should be considered, then I'll concede. It is his/her topic, after all.

That said - ignoring evolutions is not at all like ignoring stats/movepool/etc. When you ignore moves/stats/etc, you're ignoring facets of that specific pokemon. When you ignore evolution, it's not a problem because that evolution isn't the Pokemon in question. For example, ignoring Charmeleon isn't a big deal (for the purposes of this poll) because it has nothing to do with Charmander. But when you ignore Charmander's moves/stats, that is a big deal because you're ignoring bits about the very pokemon you're voting for.

Zeus posted...

But why we would go into the poll blind when we don't go into the games blind? That makes no sense.

Because the poll is about that one Pokemon (again, will wait on michalecole's confirmation to back up what you said he/she initially said about including everything). Ergo, we should only take into account what that pokemon has to offer.

Zeus posted...

Which again, is silly semantics. By that logic, you should ONLY look at the moves and stats they have at level 5 rather while completely ignoring everything they learn later on.

Not at all the same. That pokemon's moveset is still part of that pokemon. Its evolution is not that pokemon.
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I don't remember what I said in the first topic

Here's what I think you should consider: which of the two provided starters do you like more? If it's Chimchar, you should vote for Chimchar. If it's Mudkip you should vote for Mudkip.

Muffinz0rz posted...

One could argue that higher stats and easy evolution requirements are just another aspect of any random Pokemon design. Secondly, I fail to see how simply leveling up to evolve classifies as "very different" - the very core of Pokemon is to level up and evolve.

First, those are all design choices. Starter Pokemon are deliberately more well-rounded and "stronger" than most other Pokemon (although the lack of specialization hurts them in the metagame). Starters, like legendaries, aren't just "any random Pokemon"

Second, more than half of all non-starter 3-form Pokemon have a special condition evolution. Gen 1 alone contained 4 families with trade evos and something like 5 or 7 with stone evos (and a LOT of Pokemon had stone evos at that time). Gen 2 added item+trade evos and happiness evos. There are a few 3-form families *without* a single level-up evolution, such as Magmar and Electabuzz.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Charmander evolves into Charmeleon. Charmander is not Charmeleon. Therefore, it's not the same Pokemon. From the game's perspective, it's a different Pokemon with consistent stats to reflect the evolution from its prior state.

Except it is the same Pokemon. All of the other values are maintained. It doesn't re-roll a single value between forms. IVs don't change. The gender check data remains the same. More importantly, a Pokemon's evolutions are AS MUCH a part of it as its move-set. You can't separate it. That'd be like ignoring typing.

Muffinz0rz posted...

I didn't see that. But if @MICHALECOLE confirms that evolution should be considered, then I'll concede. It is his/her topic, after all.

You don't need to tag a person inside their own topic, they get a notification no matter what.

Muffinz0rz posted...

That said - ignoring evolutions is not at all like ignoring stats/movepool/etc. When you ignore moves/stats/etc, you're ignoring facets of that specific pokemon. When you ignore evolution, it's not a problem because that evolution isn't the Pokemon in question. For example, ignoring Charmeleon isn't a big deal (for the purposes of this poll) because it has nothing to do with Charmander. But when you ignore Charmander's moves/stats, that is a big deal because you're ignoring bits about the very pokemon you're voting for.

Except no, because you start with those moves any more than you start with your charmander being charizard. You level it up, it gets moves. You level it up, it evolves. Same shit. When you pick a starter, you're picking it partly for its moves and evo. Same for picking other Pokemon. If I decide to use a Munchlax because it evolves into Snorlax, I'm doing it because Snorlax is great which overcomes Munchlax's stats. It's different from Dunsparce which sucks and doesn't evolve.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Because the poll is about that one Pokemon (again, will wait on michalecole's confirmation to back up what you said he/she initially said about including everything). Ergo, we should only take into account what that pokemon has to offer.

Evolutions are a part of the Pokemon... It's a central concept to Pokemon itself. The only reason you wouldn't count it is if the other forms were being voted on separately. In this case, it definitely counts because it's about starters.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Not at all the same. That pokemon's moveset is still part of that pokemon. Its evolution is not that pokemon.

No, because evolutions are as much a part of that Pokemon as its moves.
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He says, tagging me

MICHALECOLE posted...

I don't remember what I said in the first topic

Here's what I think you should consider: which of the two provided starters do you like more? If it's Chimchar, you should vote for Chimchar. If it's Mudkip you should vote for Mudkip.

You need to start taking this seriously, Cole. We're talking about POKEMON here, Cole. It's serious, Cole.
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MICHALECOLE posted...

He says, tagging me

He says not realizing I was too lazy to remove Muffinz's tag.
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mudkip>>>>monkey with turd on its head
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

monkey with turd on its head

Again, you take that back!
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why cant you guys just let muffin be wrong
if he wants to live in his world where evos have absolutely nothing to do with their first forms let him.
for me, a vote for mudkip is a vote for him and all his traits, one of those traits is that he can evolve to a cool pokemon
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Zeus posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

monkey with turd on its head

Again, you take that back!

it's the design. i don't have the authority to change chimchar's design
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Zeus posted...

First, those are all design choices. Starter Pokemon are deliberately more well-rounded and "stronger" than most other Pokemon (although the lack of specialization hurts them in the metagame). Starters, like legendaries, aren't just "any random Pokemon"

Second, more than half of all non-starter 3-form Pokemon have a special condition evolution. Gen 1 alone contained 4 families with trade evos and something like 5 or 7 with stone evos (and a LOT of Pokemon had stone evos at that time). Gen 2 added item+trade evos and happiness evos. There are a few 3-form families *without* a single level-up evolution, such as Magmar and Electabuzz.

I legitimately don't remember why evolution criteria this is relevant to the topic...

For one thing, leveling up to evolve is not unique. Just because less than half of 3-form Pokemon have other conditions to evolve, doesn't make starters unique.

Zeus posted...

Except it is the same Pokemon. All of the other values are maintained. It doesn't re-roll a single value between forms. IVs don't change. The gender check data remains the same. More importantly, a Pokemon's evolutions are AS MUCH a part of it as its move-set. You can't separate it. That'd be like ignoring typing.

Yeah, gonna end up talking in circles on this one too. I'm trying to draw you the line of what you can and can't separate. Of course you can't ignore typing. That's pertinent to that specific Pokemon. Same with movesets, EXP scale, and all that. But the line is drawn when you start looking at evolutions because you're looking at a different Pokemon. When voting for Charmander, you vote for it because it's fire type and has fire moves. Those are Charmander facts. Then, when you look at Charmeleon, you are no longer looking at Charmander.

Zeus posted...

Except no, because you start with those moves any more than you start with your charmander being charizard. You level it up, it gets moves. You level it up, it evolves. Same shit. When you pick a starter, you're picking it partly for its moves and evo. Same for picking other Pokemon. If I decide to use a Munchlax because it evolves into Snorlax, I'm doing it because Snorlax is great which overcomes Munchlax's stats. It's different from Dunsparce which sucks and doesn't evolve.

Which is a reasonable point. But this poll is about that Pokemon. As I mentioned in my last bit, when you vote for Charmander because you like Charizard, you're contaminating the poll because you aren't voting for Charmander.

I'd also like to share the early results of a poll I posted yesterday:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/3-poll-of-the-day/75378629

In Michaelecole's poll, Charmander won 35-20. Pretty decided victory, roughly 63% to 36%. However, in my poll posted above, Pikachu won/is winning, with a score of 13-10 (results may change by the time I post this though). Granted, the poll hasn't been open for even 24 hours yet, but the percentages are nearly reversed (Pikachu 56%, Charmander 43%). I made it abundantly clear to ignore evolutions. And what happened? The poll results nearly swapped. I'm not saying it's conclusive support in my favor by any means, but it's definitely a strong point to consider. It shows that people are voting for Charizard in Michaelcole's poll.
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Zeus posted...

Evolutions are a part of the Pokemon... It's a central concept to Pokemon itself. The only reason you wouldn't count it is if the other forms were being voted on separately. In this case, it definitely counts because it's about starters.

It is about starters. But evolutions aren't starters. You don't "start" with Charizard. You start with Charmander.

Zeus posted...

No, because evolutions are as much a part of that Pokemon as its moves.

I'd argue this - the fact that it can evolve is just as much a part of that Pokemon as its moves. However, the pokemon into which it evolves is not a part of that base form pokemon (i.e. the fact that Charmander can evolve is important to Charmander, but Charmeleon is not important to Charmander).

TheSlinja posted...

why cant you guys just let muffin be wrong
if he wants to live in his world where evos have absolutely nothing to do with their first forms let him.
for me, a vote for mudkip is a vote for him and all his traits, one of those traits is that he can evolve to a cool pokemon

Sorry, but by that logic, you're voting for Swampert, not Mudkip. I'll direct you to the poll I posted above. When I tell people to vote without considering evolutions, Pikachu won/is winning. But in Michaelecole's topic, where evolutions are being considered, Charmander won.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

why cant you guys just let muffin be wrong

Sorry, but by that logic, you're voting for Swampert, not Mudkip.

That's why Slinja. He can't just be wrong, he continues to insist we're wrong.

He doesn't even realize his poll isn't about starters.
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Veedrock- posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

TheSlinja posted...

why cant you guys just let muffin be wrong

Sorry, but by that logic, you're voting for Swampert, not Mudkip.

That's why Slinja. He can't just be wrong, he continues to insist we're wrong.

He doesn't even realize his poll isn't about starters.

My poll isn't about starters. It's about Charmander vs. Pikachu. It was simply a duplicate of this poll series, with the caveat that I told people to ignore evolutions.

If you guys want to try and prove me wrong, feel free to contribute argument points, rather than just saying "lolwrong"
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Mudkip. Not a chimchar fan at all. Not really a mudkip fan either.

Muffinz0rz posted...

prove me wrong

Uhh, I already did. This is a poll about starters, yours is about the single pokemon. They're not the same so of course the results aren't the same.

Actually I'm not even sure what your point was with that topic. It's already been addressed that most poll-goers in this series consider all facets of the starters, including their evolutions. Your poll possible shows that evolutions influence the results but doesn't actually make any argument for their exclusion in this series.
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Veedrock- posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

prove me wrong

Uhh, I already did. This is a poll about starters, yours is about the single pokemon. They're not the same so of course the results aren't the same.

Actually I'm not even sure what your point was with that topic. It's already been addressed that most poll-goers in this series consider all facets of the starters, including their evolutions. Your poll possible shows that evolutions influence the results but doesn't actually make any argument for their exclusion in this series.

Because the poll series says "best starter pokemon." Charizard is not a starter Pokemon. Charmander is.

All it does is prove that people are not following the rules of the poll series.

If Michalecole says "include evolutions," then my point is moot. But he/she hasn't said that yet. So until that happens, I still have a case.
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https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qszMoCd6bPgJ:https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/3-poll-of-the-day/75301706+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

End of discussion.
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Veedrock- posted...

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qszMoCd6bPgJ:https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/3-poll-of-the-day/75301706+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

End of discussion.

I mean, that's hardly "end of discussion." His/her answer was inconclusive. It was an "I don't care." So as far as that's concerned, the topic is still very much open.

However, even if I wanted to, I could take the following quote and use it to my advantage:

MICHALECOLE posted...

Eh I don't care just pick the one you like better

He/she says, "pick the one you like better."

Pick one. Not three. One.
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To the surprise of nobody he's still trying.
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Veedrock- posted...

To the surprise of nobody he's still trying.

Muffinz0rz posted...

If you want to try and prove me wrong, feel free to contribute argument points, rather than just saying "lolwrong"

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Muffinz0rz posted...

people are not following the rules of the poll series.

There are no rules. I have proven that.

Muffinz0rz posted...

If Michalecole says "include evolutions," then my point is moot.

MICHALECOLE did not say "exclude evolutions." I have proven that.
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Veedrock- posted...

There are no rules. I have proven that.

It says vote for the best starter Pokemon, and two options are given. Let's say Pikachu and Charmander. If someone likes Charizard, they'll vote for Charmander. But that's not what the poll aims to do. The goal of the poll is to figure out the best starter Pokemon. Charizard is not a starter Pokemon. Therefore, people are contaminating the results of the poll by voting for a starter Pokemon's evolutions, rather than what the poll aims to accomplish - the best "starter Pokemon."

That's like people who voted for Hillary because they supported Bernie but knew he had no shot without the nomination. Just as Charmander has no shot when you don't consider Charizard.

Veedrock- posted...

MICHALECOLE did not say "exclude evolutions." I have proven that.

He/she also did not say "include evolutions." I have proven that.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

That's like people who voted for Hillary because they supported Bernie but knew he had no shot without the nomination. Just as Charmander has no shot when you don't consider Charizard.

Hillary and Bernie aren't the same person. Starter Charmander and Starter Charizard are the same pokemon. Awful analogy.
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Veedrock- posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

That's like people who voted for Hillary because they supported Bernie but knew he had no shot without the nomination. Just as Charmander has no shot when you don't consider Charizard.

Hillary and Bernie aren't the same person. Starter Charmander and Starter Charizard are the same pokemon. Awful analogy.

Charmander and Charizard aren't the same Pokemon. Adding "starter" doesn't change that fact.
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Muffinz0rz posted...

But that's not what the poll aims to do

why do you get to choose what the poll aims to do lmao, he didnt specify whether evos matter or not so clearly its up to the voter
You cant tell someone the "right way" to answer a vague question lol
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Muffinz0rz posted...

Charmander and Charizard aren't the same Pokemon. Adding "starter" doesn't change that fact.

It actually does, because this is a poll about starters! It's a specific Charmander, not just any Charmander. It's like saying Ash's Charizard is not the same Pokemon as Ash's Charmander.

...wait shit, you might be onto something. Charizard had a massive personality shift after evolution, I bet somebody hotswapped him out in the middle of the bright evolution sequence. But there's no evidence of that in the games!
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TheSlinja posted...

Muffinz0rz posted...

But that's not what the poll aims to do

why do you get to choose what the poll aims to do lmao, he didnt specify whether evos matter or not so clearly its up to the voter
You cant tell someone the "right way" to answer a vague question lol

We have the words, "best starter pokemon out of all the starter pokemon." Then, in the poll topics, "Which of these two starter Pokmon is your favorite?" All I'm doing is reading the words that MICHALECOLE wrote and taking them at face value. Does the poll say "best starter pokemon and its evolutions?" No. But wait, Charizard is a starter! - No, it's not. Charmander is a starter. Charizard is not. Therefore, by following the instructions given by MICHALECOLE, I am right. I am not adding supplemental material by including evolutions.

The answer is Charmander or Pikachu. Not Charmander/Charmeleon/Charizard or Pichu/Pikachu/Raichu.

Veedrock- posted...

It actually does, because this is a poll about starters! It's a specific Charmander, not just any Charmander. It's like saying Ash's Charizard is not the same Pokemon as Ash's Charmander.

A "starter" Charmander is exactly the same as any other Charmander out there.
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I like how much you guys are saying my name

Makes me feel important

MICHALECOLE

caps
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well i guess everyone is just gonna keep voting "wrong" and the world keeps spinning while you and your ever so important single right vote continue to have little to no impact on the poll

m i c h a l e c o l e o w n s m y s o u l
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TheSlinja posted...

well i guess everyone is just gonna keep voting "wrong" and the world keeps spinning while you and your ever so important single right vote continue to have little to no impact on the poll

Not sure why you're taking such a condescending and insulting tone here - I'm sure you saw in the old topic that even Zeus and I could engage in a fruitful and healthy debate without resorting to petty insults like you.

People can vote how they want. The outcome of this poll affects my life in exactly zero ways.

It was a legitimate discussion topic with relevant points as it pertains to this series.

P.S. Resorting to insults rather than actually responding means you've got nothing left in the tank. So I'm okay with winning, even if it doesn't sway a single vote, because it means you decided to walk away with your tail between your legs.
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Krazy_Kirby posted...

Zeus posted...

Krazy_Kirby posted...

monkey with turd on its head

Again, you take that back!

it's the design. i don't have the authority to change chimchar's design

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder523/59987523.jpg

Muffinz0rz posted...

I legitimately don't remember why evolution criteria this is relevant to the topic...

For one thing, leveling up to evolve is not unique. Just because less than half of 3-form Pokemon have other conditions to evolve, doesn't make starters unique.

Because you argued that the design is the same.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Which is a reasonable point. But this poll is about that Pokemon. As I mentioned in my last bit, when you vote for Charmander because you like Charizard, you're contaminating the poll because you aren't voting for Charmander.

I'd also like to share the early results of a poll I posted yesterday:

https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/3-poll-of-the-day/75378629

In Michaelecole's poll, Charmander won 35-20. Pretty decided victory, roughly 63% to 36%. However, in my poll posted above, Pikachu won/is winning, with a score of 13-10 (results may change by the time I post this though). Granted, the poll hasn't been open for even 24 hours yet, but the percentages are nearly reversed (Pikachu 56%, Charmander 43%). I made it abundantly clear to ignore evolutions. And what happened? The poll results nearly swapped. I'm not saying it's conclusive support in my favor by any means, but it's definitely a strong point to consider. It shows that people are voting for Charizard in Michaelcole's poll.

And you can run your poll however you want, but also keep in mind that these polls have more people involved so your lower turnout can skew numbers.

Muffinz0rz posted...

It is about starters. But evolutions aren't starters. You don't "start" with Charizard. You start with Charmander.

And half the reason you choose a starter is because of the evolutions. Evolution is a characteristic of Pokemon. If you're taking evos off the table, what are you even looking at?
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Muffinz0rz posted...

I'd argue this - the fact that it can evolve is just as much a part of that Pokemon as its moves. However, the pokemon into which it evolves is not a part of that base form pokemon (i.e. the fact that Charmander can evolve is important to Charmander, but Charmeleon is not important to Charmander).

Again, you're trying to arbitrarily separate these things for no good reason. When you pick a starter Pokemon in the games, it's BECAUSE you know what it evolves into. If Piplup had a different evo, I would have picked Piplup in the games. If we're being asked to choose a starter here, it has the same considerations as the game.

Muffinz0rz posted...

Sorry, but by that logic, you're voting for Swampert, not Mudkip. I'll direct you to the poll I posted above. When I tell people to vote without considering evolutions, Pikachu won/is winning. But in Michaelecole's topic, where evolutions are being considered, Charmander won.

Technically you're voting for the entire family, although the final form is a major consideration.

Muffinz0rz posted...

That's like people who voted for Hillary because they supported Bernie but knew he had no shot without the nomination. Just as Charmander has no shot when you don't consider Charizard.

Except no, because Charmander still has a decent shot regardless since people like his inherent cuteness. And your one-off poll doesn't prove anything because it's not reaching the same crowd. It's apples-oranges.
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