Current Events > What's an actual reason to learn math when wolfram alpha exists?

(+) Yeah! (+)

I kind of understood the reason to learn advanced mathematics when I was in high school and even the best graphing calculators in the world wouldn't simplify equations for you, you had to understand how to do that to get them to be able to graph, but now you can literally type in equations into Wolfram alpha and it will solve them in just about any form and graph them for you in seconds.

Knowing this is a reality today how can there even be an argument for the necessity of learning advanced math unless you are specifically going to college to pursue extremely complicated math systems that aren't solved yet or something?
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What's the point of learning English when dictionaries exist?

clearaflagrantj posted...

What's the point of learning English when dictionaries exist?

This is fundamentally a flawed argument. Dictionaries do not communicate for you. The function of math is performed by it simply being done. The function of English is not performed by it simply existing.
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Howl posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

What's the point of learning English when dictionaries exist?

This is fundamentally a flawed argument. Dictionaries do not communicate for you. The function of math is performed by it simply being done. The function of English is not performed by it simply existing.

Mathematicians everywhere are crying over this statement

Literally everything advanced I've tried to do in Wolfram Alpha exceeds the computation limit and it gives me half ass results. Partial differentiation and integrals will make it poop itself.
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Wolfram only works well till like calc 3 then everything else is a mess
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clearaflagrantj posted...

Howl posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

What's the point of learning English when dictionaries exist?

This is fundamentally a flawed argument. Dictionaries do not communicate for you. The function of math is performed by it simply being done. The function of English is not performed by it simply existing.

Mathematicians everywhere are crying over this statement

How is it incorrect?
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Just because machines can do the work for us doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the work that's being done.

Otherwise, you may as well be the cashier at McDonald's that can't figure out how much change to return when a customer gives you $5 for a $3 purchase.
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jcmason posted...

Just because machines can do the work for us doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the work that's being done.

Otherwise, you may as well be the cashier at McDonald's that can't figure out how much change to return when a customer gives you $5 for a $3 purchase.

There's a difference in learning arithmetic and learning calculus. I've never once in my life used calculus in a practical way. That was the point of this. I know I just wrote math in the title but if you read my first post you could infer that I meant advanced math.
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What's the point of learning construction when tape measures exist?

What's the point of learning medicine when stethoscopes exist?

What's the point of learning programming when keyboards exist?
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WRA isn't really useful for manufacturing things, unless you're in the engineering step.

For example, WRA won't read micrometers, an optical comparator, or even a regular old tape measure. I also don't think it will compute steel-related manufacturing formulas.
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1) For practical applications, you have to be able to figure out what maths equations need to be solved.

2) There is a tremendous amount of mathematics that wolfram alpha can't do.
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So all these comparisons are terrible but a good one is why study history when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia?

As everyone who knows anything knows, the study of history is not so much facts as understanding cause and effect and learning to recognize how things are connected. It's about philosophy; about understanding the universe and how it works. The facts are simply the pieces that you learn to piece together.

Math is the same way. It's not so much about calculations but understanding quantity and form. It's about philosophy; about understanding the universe and how it works.
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Howl posted...

jcmason posted...

Just because machines can do the work for us doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the work that's being done.

Otherwise, you may as well be the cashier at McDonald's that can't figure out how much change to return when a customer gives you $5 for a $3 purchase.

There's a difference in learning arithmetic and learning calculus. I've never once in my life used calculus in a practical way. That was the point of this. I know I just wrote math in the title but if you read my first post you could infer that I meant advanced math.

then your argument is 'i've never used it, so why does it matter'?
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Riosiogo posted...

Wolfram only works well till like calc 3 then everything else is a mess

Even in calc 3 Wolfram can't tell you the bounds of integration which is the hardest part

monkmith posted...

Howl posted...

jcmason posted...

Just because machines can do the work for us doesn't mean we shouldn't understand the work that's being done.

Otherwise, you may as well be the cashier at McDonald's that can't figure out how much change to return when a customer gives you $5 for a $3 purchase.

There's a difference in learning arithmetic and learning calculus. I've never once in my life used calculus in a practical way. That was the point of this. I know I just wrote math in the title but if you read my first post you could infer that I meant advanced math.

then your argument is 'i've never used it, so why does it matter'?

It's not so much of that as not understanding the reason for forcing it as general education today when only a tiny minority of people will ever have a practical application for it, and the people who will will learn it as part of their specific educational requirements. Forcing people to still learn this in high school today is like forcing kids to learn the dimension standards in air ducts in modern construction of buildings. Yes learning that does have a specific reason for a person to learn it, but the practical application of such knowledge is limited extremely by the people who do jobs specifically designed to use such knowledge.
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You can use wolfram to solve problems once you have set them up (which is often the most difficult part) but you can't type in "solve the mathematics required to build this bridge for me, k thnx." Knowing how to translate real world problems into mathematical formulas is the reason to learn math.
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Getting an answer is not the same thing as comprehending and being able to apply the knowledge gained in obtaining that answer.

You're talking about maths as if the point of learning it is to answer trivia in a text book. The actual point about learning about maths is to give people the skills to create and solve problems.
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Howl posted...

It's not so much of that as not understanding the reason for forcing it as general education today when only a tiny minority of people will ever have a practical application for it, and the people who will will learn it as part of their specific educational requirements.

Teaching isn't always about giving knowledge. Otherwise, schools would have more about how to do taxes, or interact with other people, or how to process emotions. All of those are much more important to everyone than math is. The utility of teaching calculus is not to teach kids how to find derivatives, but to try to get them to learn how to work with an abstraction and problem solve in a way that's not seen in other fields.

1.) Because you should understand what is going on so you can interpret the results. What good is a numerical answer if you don't know what it means. Also, suppose you want to, for whatever context you are in, vary some of the inputs to achieve some different result. You need to know the underlying concepts in order to understand what needs to be adjusted, and why the system behaves how it does.

2.) Studying mathematics is not so much about "will I use this in my daily life", it is about learning about the study of patterns, which is a common thread throughout education in the social sciences, language and the hard sciences as well. Mathematics is yet another way to study patterns and logical systems, which are useful skills in interacting with the world and understanding how things work. The mathematical content we study is just one way of doing that. You don't need to remember all the dates in that old history book of yours, but instead understand how the path of the world has led to the circumstances that have let to our current state of affairs in the world. There is importance in things other than "when am I going to use this isolated fact / equation in life"

Source: A mathematics education doctorate student and teacher educator

Howl posted...

There's a difference in learning arithmetic and learning calculus. I've never once in my life used calculus in a practical way. That was the point of this. I know I just wrote math in the title but if you read my first post you could infer that I meant advanced math.

calc isn't even really advanced math tho

you have p naive view of what it is imo tbh tbf shiggydiggydoo
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Asherlee10 posted...

Several great answers in this topic. Wonder if TC will admit he is wrong?

Wrong? This is the the best response so far, but it still isn't even close to a compelling enough reason for it to be part of graduating high school yet...

lderivedx posted...

Howl posted...

It's not so much of that as not understanding the reason for forcing it as general education today when only a tiny minority of people will ever have a practical application for it, and the people who will will learn it as part of their specific educational requirements.

Teaching isn't always about giving knowledge. Otherwise, schools would have more about how to do taxes, or interact with other people, or how to process emotions. All of those are much more important to everyone than math is. The utility of teaching calculus is not to teach kids how to find derivatives, but to try to get them to learn how to work with an abstraction and problem solve in a way that's not seen in other fields.

What's worse is he even made an even better argument for why things like learning about taxes should be taught in high school than he did for calculus. I took Calculus in high school and got an A in it but it was an entire waste of time even back then. It's an even bigger waste of time for people now that technology has improved so much.
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Wolfram can't even do that good of a job with Cal 2 and you have to interpret what it does give you, lol.


But if you don't go into a field that requires even that low of a level of mathematics, then there really isn't any need to learn the more complex stuff. Which, I'm assuming if you're asking this question, is true for you so Wolfram's fine.
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Xelltrix posted...

Wolfram can't even do that good of a job with Cal 2 and you have to interpret what it does give you, lol.


But if you don't go into a field that requires even that low of a level of mathematics, then there really isn't any need to learn the more complex stuff. Which, I'm assuming if you're asking this question, is true for you so Wolfram's fine.

That's exactly the point I'm making. It's not just that Wolfram is fine for me, but it's completely fine for like the 96+% of jobs in the US that will never require anything even close to anything of a higher level of mathematical knowledge than what Wolfram can easily just do for you.
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Howl posted...

That's exactly the point I'm making. It's not just that Wolfram is fine for me, but it's completely fine for like the 96+% of jobs in the US that will never require anything even close to anything of a higher level of mathematical knowledge than what Wolfram can easily just do for you.

Learn higher math and abstract math is more about getting your mind thinking in that manner and identifying the problem and what you actually need to do to solve it. At least, it's like that for programming. In real life, most problems don't present themselves at an equation that needs to be solved so you need to know what you actually need to solve before you can actually apply a formula. With math, it can get a lot more abstract so, for the overwhelming majority of people, they don't need to know it but that's no different than pretty much any field and to say that there's no actual reason to learn it is dumb. It's not necessary for most people, but most people don't go into those higher level math classes in the first place.
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Good luck convincing stemlord CE that advanced math isn't necessary for everyone.
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Define "advanced math."

Anything beyond introductory mathmatics
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From my experience, you still need a lot of math know-how to input and assess what you're looking at.

It takes all the hard computing out, which is great. Algebra is the hardest part of most problems.

Then there's proofs...
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Unsugarized_Foo posted...

Then there's proofs...

best part of math tbh imo
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Xelltrix posted...

With math, it can get a lot more abstract so, for the overwhelming majority of people, they don't need to know it but that's no different than pretty much any field

No different than any field? What other field do you study in high school that has almost a zero application? I can't think of one. History and the lessons learned from it are being used everyday in everyday life, especially in the hyper social world of today where everyone is super afraid of an Nazi like dictatorship. Science is used in thousands of practical ways in everyday life from cooking to maintainence repairs on a vehicle. English is used everyday in every job and in basic life everyday. Even physical education is applicable to everyday life. So how is it not entirely different than every other field of study in high school exactly?
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Howl posted...

Xelltrix posted...

With math, it can get a lot more abstract so, for the overwhelming majority of people, they don't need to know it but that's no different than pretty much any field

No different than any field? What other field do you study in high school that has almost a zero application? I can't think of one. History and the lessons learned from it are being used everyday in everyday life, especially in the hyper social world of today where everyone is super afraid of an Nazi like dictatorship. Science is used in thousands of practical ways in everyday life from cooking to maintainence repairs on a vehicle. English is used everyday in every job and in basic life everyday. Even physical education is applicable to everyday life. So how is it not entirely different than every other field of study in high school exactly?

In my district, there's no math requirement past, like, Geometry so those of us that went higher, went higher by choice and you certainly can get regular usage out of those courses. No different than the basic levels of Bio/Chem that we learn in high school that most people aren't going to use much either, probably less than geometry/trig/(maybe pre-calc if you took it). English is probably the same kind of changing how you think thing as well, but you're certainly not going to need to interpret stories/poems and create an essay about it and I don't think i learned anything new in terms of grammar or spelling in High School English.
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Xelltrix posted...

Howl posted...

Xelltrix posted...

With math, it can get a lot more abstract so, for the overwhelming majority of people, they don't need to know it but that's no different than pretty much any field

No different than any field? What other field do you study in high school that has almost a zero application? I can't think of one. History and the lessons learned from it are being used everyday in everyday life, especially in the hyper social world of today where everyone is super afraid of an Nazi like dictatorship. Science is used in thousands of practical ways in everyday life from cooking to maintainence repairs on a vehicle. English is used everyday in every job and in basic life everyday. Even physical education is applicable to everyday life. So how is it not entirely different than every other field of study in high school exactly?

In my district, there's no math requirement past, like, Geometry so those of us that went higher, went higher by choice and you certainly can get regular usage out of those courses. No different than the basic levels of Bio/Chem that we learn in high school that most people aren't going to use much either, probably less than geometry/trig/(maybe pre-calc if you took it). English is probably the same kind of changing how you think thing as well, but you're certainly not going to need to interpret stories/poems and create an essay about it and I don't think i learned anything new in terms of grammar or spelling in High School English.

Learning even basic levels of chemistry and biology do have very practical applications that people do use in everyday life. As far as grammar goes though, I learned a lot more about grammar in college oddly than I did in high school, but that's probably just because I had some pretty awful teachers in high school.

I remember in high school they still told us that essays had to follow this specific format...

Intro begins with this sentence, "I'm going to explain or tell you about (subject)"
3 body paragraphs
Conclusion ends with this sentence "in conclusion I explained (subject)."

Then, I went to college and was told that is a terrible way to write pretty much any essay and actually learned how to write college level essays.

Also I was required to take Calculus to graduate high school but that's a long and stupid story I don't want to explain. Generally people from my school district have to take Algebra 1,2 and Geometry to graduate though.
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Howl posted...

What's worse is he even made an even better argument for why things like learning about taxes should be taught in high school than he did for calculus. I took Calculus in high school and got an A in it but it was an entire waste of time even back then. It's an even bigger waste of time for people now that technology has improved so much.

The fact that most people probably won't use advanced math is different from the argument that wolfram makes learning advanced math useless.

Wolfram itself is useless if you don't even know how to form the proper formula to put into it. Translating real life problems into formulas to plug into wolfram is where the difficulty of mathematics is and basically the entire point of learning mathematics for the purpose of real world application. I mean think about your argument for a second... whats the point of learning how to add when your calculator can add for you? Well... if you don't know what addition even is then you won't know how to plug addition problems into your calculator. Wolfram and calculators are merely a tool and tools are useless if you don't know how to use them properly.
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Howl posted...

Learning even basic levels of chemistry and biology do have very practical applications that people do use in everyday life. As far as grammar goes though, I learned a lot more about grammar in college oddly than I did in high school, but that's probably just because I had some pretty awful teachers in high school.

I know, just like the levels of math you do in High School. You're not covering the really in depth stuff in High-School or early college years, just enough that you'd be able to apply it to your real life. Just like the required math levels are rather shallow and don't involve high level understanding or application. They're just teaching you things that you are likely to encounter in life in most fields or walks rather than specialities.
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Wolfram Alpha is just a ridiculously advanced calculator

It serves no purpose on it's own if you don't understand what you're doing.
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DevsBro posted...

So all these comparisons are terrible but a good one is why study history when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia?

LOL, your comparison is the worst one in the entire topic. You're almost as clueless as TC.
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Manocheese posted...

DevsBro posted...

So all these comparisons are terrible but a good one is why study history when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia?

LOL, your comparison is the worst one in the entire topic. You're almost as clueless as TC.

All of yours were way worse. His actually made a bit of sense.
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nicklebro posted...

Manocheese posted...

DevsBro posted...

So all these comparisons are terrible but a good one is why study history when you can just look stuff up on wikipedia?

LOL, your comparison is the worst one in the entire topic. You're almost as clueless as TC.

All of yours were way worse. His actually made a bit of sense.

Guys, guys, let's not fight about this. There's no need to be dicks about it.
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