Board 8 > So what is fake/cheap difficulty, exactly?

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Natwaf_akidna
08/23/11 11:21:00 PM
#1:


Ridiculous health on enemies? Nonsensical enemy placements? What?

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TheRock1525
08/23/11 11:23:00 PM
#2:


Bad programming, mainly.

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Psycho_Kenshin
08/23/11 11:23:00 PM
#3:


Strider the original arcade game for example. They'll arrange stuff so like when you're in midjump the giant robot dinosaur boss falls on your head, etc.

Stuff you can't predict that'll hurt or kill ya, stuff not involving skillz, etc.

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Blairville
08/23/11 11:25:00 PM
#4:


See: I Wanna Be The Guy.

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Biolizard28
08/23/11 11:25:00 PM
#5:


I also consider fake difficulty as when the game is less trying to challenge you and more actively trying to make you lose.

Like, in any give Street Fighter game, your inputs will be read to such levels that your jabs will be punished by a standing 720 by Zangief for all of your life.

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Anagram
08/23/11 11:26:00 PM
#6:


Things that are impossible to predict regardless of skill, only know from previous playthroughs.

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Grand Kirby
08/23/11 11:26:00 PM
#7:


I think it crosses the line when the difficulty comes not from having to use applied strength or skill, but from having to deal an element that only serves to be frustrating and hard simply for the sake of being hard.

A "Challenge" is defeating a boss who is powerful and has a complicated attack pattern. "Difficulty" comes from having to do it without taking a single hit, and if you die you have go through the entire level again.

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Natwaf_akidna
08/23/11 11:33:00 PM
#8:


Ahh. I've seen that phrase tossed around sometimes, so I've been wondering. Thanks.

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paperwarior
08/23/11 11:38:00 PM
#9:


I consider it to be when they raise everything's stats and that's it. It's the laziest way to raise difficulty.

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Mac Arrowny
08/23/11 11:42:00 PM
#10:


Lack of saves/save points does it too.

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OInsaneOne32
08/23/11 11:43:00 PM
#11:


[This message was deleted at the request of a moderator or administrator]
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DaruniaTheGoron
08/23/11 11:48:00 PM
#12:


Just really unpredictable stuff. Like an enemy comes off screen and kills you. Or you have to perform a jump in a side scroller.. and you fall to a lower level.. right into a lava pit or something. No way to possibly know that it's there without playing the game at least once.

In general, stuff that's just incredibly frustrating and seemingly there's nothing you could have done to prevent it.

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The Real Truth
08/23/11 11:51:00 PM
#13:


Ninja Gaiden on the NES.

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CherryCokes
08/23/11 11:59:00 PM
#14:


Artificially inflating the difficulty

*Things you can't possibly avoid the first time you play a game
*Things that are there that have no business being there
*In rhythm games, the charting of notes that don't actually exist
*Anything that will OHKO you regardless of your health, experience, skill level, etc always feels cheap.

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shadosneko
08/24/11 12:07:00 AM
#15:


No continues.

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OctilIery
08/24/11 12:10:00 AM
#16:


In any skill-based game, it's things where the AI is given a large advantage you can't possibly miss.

See most of the bosses in Capcom games.

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agesboy
08/24/11 12:13:00 AM
#17:


I consider it cheap difficulty if you have to resort to cheap tricks yourself to win.

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Chrono1219
08/24/11 1:40:00 AM
#18:


A few things qualify

1. Any time where you need extreme foreknowledge to avoid certain death in several parts of the game.

It is required that the death would happen even if the difficulty of the game was on the easiest setting possible. Games that qualify for this are like IWTBTG and a lot of games AVGN reviews .

2. Games that use AI to do things close to humanly impossible.

Fighting games are the biggest culprits here. While each game varies in scope, games like Soul Calibur (especially in 3 and 4) have AI that reads the buttons you push to react. So they can instantaneously counter your moves. Anti Ai movelists and strategies have been developed to counter this.

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Shoenin_Kakashi
08/24/11 1:48:00 AM
#19:


Other things include Computers getting advantages.
Like extra units or more resources.

and yeah, Psychic comps are stupid as hell.

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JeffreyRaze
08/24/11 1:53:00 AM
#20:


I need to dig through my games, but I remember one particular boss in some indie game that was far, far weaker than you but was an ungodly cheat.

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Veola
08/24/11 1:54:00 AM
#21:


3 words: Pokemon Cheater Frontier. (This of course includes later incarnations such as the murdertrain)

It isn't really a wonder the cartoon turned into complete bull**** when Ash took it on in Hoenn.
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Chrono1219
08/24/11 1:56:00 AM
#22:


From: Shoenin_Kakashi | #059
Other things include Computers getting advantages.
Like extra units or more resources.


I don't really consider this being cheap, more like an unfair computer advantage for a higher difficulty. As long as the computer follows the in game rules and acts with reasonable AI it's fine.

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Lopen
08/24/11 1:57:00 AM
#23:


Basically when something is difficult not by design or because the AI is good, but something else.

Examples are:

- Final boss has a simple pattern but has attack and defense out the ass so it's tough to win (see fighting games)
- Final boss has attacks that are literally impossible to dodge in most situations (see most fighting games not covered by the first stipulation)
- A level is designed in such a way that it's impossible to get through an area without knowledge of the area, like enemies spawning mid jump

And one I haven't seen anything close to in this topic, but is bad nonetheless

- The fight only resembles something difficult because of bad camera angles or a lack of features you should have (the original MGS)

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agesboy
08/24/11 5:02:00 AM
#24:


While each game varies in scope, games like Soul Calibur (especially in 3 and 4) have AI that reads the buttons you push to react.

Oh man I forgot about that series having that terrible habit. Sometimes I felt like I was controlling when the AI parried, not when I attacked >__>

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pjbasis
08/24/11 5:28:00 AM
#25:


The only thing mentioned so far that's actually cheap (in the cheating sense) are reading inputs.

Raising stats is also pretty cheap, but can be very effective.
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metroid composite
08/24/11 6:14:00 AM
#26:


Yeah, stuff that you can't see coming your first time through is pretty cheap design.

I'll also note that games having a limited number of continues (assuming that continues put you back at the start of the world) is a very artificial way to raise difficulty. Which is to say, it honestly doesn't raise difficulty that much, just makes you replay the first few chapters of the game if you run out.

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muddersmilk
08/24/11 6:19:00 AM
#27:


Soul Calibur (especially in 3 and 4) have AI that reads the buttons you push to react

I hate this soooo much.

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Panthera
08/24/11 6:33:00 AM
#28:


Mainly it just boils down to situations where the player has little input on what happens. If random events can kill you before you get a turn, if something happens that you can't avoid unless you started dodging before there was any observable cue to know it was coming, if you can get into situations where you don't have any means of avoiding damage/defeat/etc, that is fake difficulty.

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MrsFrisby
08/24/11 6:48:00 AM
#29:


Pretty much what Panthera said.

Also I hate having to cross damage sectors in games. There's often protection from them (like radiation suits in Doom/Doom II) or in many RPGs there's magic to elevate you from the ground, but still. In the latter case it's just magic or items that you're having to expend for naught and in the former the map designer just forgets to give you a suit at all and it's just a bunch of guaranteed damage you're going to have to suffer.

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RayDyn
08/24/11 8:21:00 AM
#30:


Most things involving the Random Number God qualify.

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Aecioo
08/24/11 8:33:00 AM
#31:


Rubberband AI in racing games.

Doesn't matter how perfect you run a race, the other drivers will always have a shot of overtaking you.

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BlackMetalex
08/24/11 8:47:00 AM
#32:


Aecioo posted...
Rubberband AI in racing games.

Doesn't matter how perfect you run a race, the other drivers will always have a shot of overtaking you.


It's hilarious in games like MK64, when you take a huge shortcut and watch the A.I. suddenly start moving at like 3x the max speed to try and close half a lap on you.
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TRE Public Account
08/24/11 8:50:00 AM
#33:


I believe in MK64, the rubberband effect applies to human players who are behind as well.

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BlackMageJawa
08/24/11 9:38:00 AM
#34:


Good difficulty: You lose because you made a mistake
Fake difficulty: You lose because the AI didn't make a mistake
Cheap difficulty: You lose because the game wants you dead

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KingButz
08/24/11 9:45:00 AM
#35:


Fake difficulty is no save points, unseen death, leaps of faith, etc. Leaps of faith should only ever be used for secrets in my opinion.

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