Board 8 > Children show greater respect for property rights than adults

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SmartMuffin
06/26/11 6:41:00 PM
#1:


http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/74983/title/Kids_own_up_to_ownership

Who knew, capitalism comes natural! You have to be indoctrinated out of it!

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SovietOmega
06/26/11 6:46:00 PM
#2:


typical capitalist propaganda!

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paperwarior
06/26/11 6:46:00 PM
#3:


^Username makes post.

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Red Shifter
06/26/11 6:47:00 PM
#4:


Didn't Bill Cosby have a comedy routine about this?

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Iamdead7
06/26/11 6:48:00 PM
#5:


we should all be whiny self centered children - smuffin

oh wait

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 6:53:00 PM
#6:


"psychologist Ori Friedman of the University of Waterloo in Canada"
"psychologist Dan Ariely of Duke University"

This topic was posted by someone who thinks college is a bad investment and that you don't need to attend college to become a doctor or lawyer.

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yoshifan823
06/26/11 6:58:00 PM
#7:


College is a bad investment for most people, though.

Granted, if you end up actually becoming a doctor or lawyer, and make enough money to make the debt you have to go in to go away fairly quickly, it's worth it.
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red sox 777
06/26/11 7:00:00 PM
#8:


We really need to stop forcing children to "share" things in kindergarten/elementary school. I'm not sure that it's natural though.....it could also be learned very very early on from our culture, which is very much about ownership.

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red sox 777
06/26/11 7:03:00 PM
#9:


If it's not a top 25 or so school, taking 200k+ in loans really is a bad investment. Of course you should by all means try to get a degree in a way that puts you in less debt.

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 7:11:00 PM
#10:


Oh and SMuffin, before you even try claiming I'm libeling you or whatever, something that absolutely was said is not slander. I clearly remember someone asking you if college is necessary to be a doctor or lawyer during some topic about whether college is a bad investment, and you said no.

It's a fact. You said people don't need to go to college to be doctors.

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Drakeryn
06/26/11 7:22:00 PM
#11:


College is clearly a good investment in today's job market, since a degree is a prerequisite to so many jobs. Whether things should be that way -- i.e., whether the actual learning is worth the cost -- is a much more complex question.

Depends on field of study too. Medicine is the most prominent field where I wouldn't trust someone without proof that they had passed a rigorous program of study. I mean, in theory, a person could study on his own and gain all necessary knowledge without formal training. (Which is probably what Smuffin was saying.) But I'm not going to trust my life to that possibility.


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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 7:26:00 PM
#12:


Not a theory, he goes around saying he's an intellectual despite not going to college, college is a bad investment and that others should think more like him. I remember that topic like it was yesterday because it was so bizarre.

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 7:32:00 PM
#13:


[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
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LeonhartFour
06/26/11 7:32:00 PM
#14:


I think you're in the wrong topic, Ulti!

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Haguile
06/26/11 7:33:00 PM
#15:


I think university is a good investment even while not counting the job opportunities. Going to university is an investment to make you a better person, in my opinion. Yes there is always that jackass that took philosophy 101 and becomes obnoxious, but the experience of going there, and being taught by an expert about things you have an interest in is amazing and generally makes you understand just how little you know, it helps you get a scope of things. Sure, it's not for everyone, there are people who just flat out don't like learning. But I personally love being in university for many reasons.

...Mostly parties. BUT! Learning is also pretty high up there!

...I think I forgot my point. ANYWAY! University is expensive, yeah. Here in Canada it's pretty affordable though. I'm not having any problem with it, and I wouldn't trade the chance of being here for anything in the world.

I think you can definitely be successful in a limited amount of careers without going to university, but if you enjoy learning there is no better investment than college. You learn something while improving the amount of careers you can choose.

Eh, that's just my view on it.

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SmartMuffin
06/26/11 7:36:00 PM
#16:


Shocking!

Rather than discuss the obvious merits of the topic at hand, Ulti shows up to slander me, fabricate complete lies, and derail the topic. It's ALMOST as if he simply cannot compete on the playing field of ideas!

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neoneaper
06/26/11 7:38:00 PM
#17:


adults just understand proper gender roles better

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paperwarior
06/26/11 7:40:00 PM
#18:


Well, then I'll do it. We all believe in property rights here, despite what you think, Smuffin. And property rights aren't the same thing as "abolish all taxes", so it's really not a point for your "side".

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Iamdead7
06/26/11 7:41:00 PM
#19:


SmartMuffin posted...
Shocking!

Rather than discuss the obvious merits of the topic at hand, Ulti shows up to slander me, fabricate complete lies, and derail the topic. It's ALMOST as if he simply cannot compete on the playing field of ideas!


XFD

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neoneaper
06/26/11 7:42:00 PM
#20:


to be serious, I'd imagine most kids don't "reason", and if they do, they put themselves in the place of the person who owns a crayon, where adults put themselves in the role of a user.

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SmartMuffin
06/26/11 7:44:00 PM
#21:


to be serious, I'd imagine most kids don't "reason", and if they do, they put themselves in the place of the person who owns a crayon, where adults put themselves in the role of a user.

So, adults are conditioned to see themselves as parasites rather than owners. Yeah, that's sort of the point here, bro!

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CeraSeptem
06/26/11 7:44:00 PM
#22:


not really understanding what this has to do with anything

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neoneaper
06/26/11 7:45:00 PM
#23:


SmartMuffin posted...
to be serious, I'd imagine most kids don't "reason", and if they do, they put themselves in the place of the person who owns a crayon, where adults put themselves in the role of a user.

So, adults are conditioned to see themselves as parasites rather than owners. Yeah, that's sort of the point here, bro!


I don't see why you are resorting to this, I'm not attacking capitalism, just... talking

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SmartMuffin
06/26/11 7:45:00 PM
#24:


So am I! I didn't mean that as an attack on you or anything, but it seems like your point doesn't really dispute what I'm trying to claim here at all.

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Drakeryn
06/26/11 7:52:00 PM
#25:


I think that kids are more likely to see rules (including ownership) in black and white. A kid owns a crayon. It's hers. End of story.

Adults are more likely to complicate things with nuance and hypotheticals. It's her crayon, but does she need to use it right now? Does the boy have any crayons of his own? Did she agree to lend it to him for a certain amount of time? etc.

Smuffin would say that none of this matters if it's the girl's crayon in the first place. But what I'm saying is that these kind of things are more likely to occur to an adult -- regardless of whether they affect the end decision -- than to a little kid.


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SmartMuffin
06/26/11 7:55:00 PM
#26:


Right, but the experiment results would suggest that those kind of things DID affect the end decision.

No information is supplied on who "needs" the crayon more. Given that situation, I find it crazy that anybody would suggest the user has a greater right than the owner. The adults seem to be taking the "possession is nine tenths of the law" reasoning, which is shocking to me. I consider THAT the most simplistic view of a situation, and I had always assumed small children would be the most likely to use it.

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Biolizard28
06/26/11 7:57:00 PM
#27:


"Mine"

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neoneaper
06/26/11 7:57:00 PM
#28:


I certainly did not and would not call those adults "parasites".

Also, adults don't see children as owning crayons. I would be interested to see the demographic breakdown for a study like this. Change crayon to lawnmower and then see how the % moves.

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Team Rocket Elite
06/26/11 7:58:00 PM
#29:


"Friedman’s team presented a simple quandary to 40 preschoolers, ages 4 and 5, and to 44 adults. Participants saw an image of a cartoon boy holding a crayon who appeared above the word “user” and a cartoon girl who appeared above the word “owner.” After hearing from an experimenter that the girl wanted her crayon back, volunteers were asked to rule on which cartoon child should get the prized object.

About 75 percent of 4- and 5-year-olds decided in favor of the owner, versus about 20 percent of adults."

That sounds pretty surprising to me. Only 1 in 5 adults thinks the owner should be able to ask for their stuff back? The time frame between asking for the crayon back and getting it back also seems like an important factor they didn't specify. Asking for something back immediately when the other person is using it is different from asking for it in a moment or when they are done and would get different levels of support.


"In a final experiment that presented two cartoon adults, one using a cell phone that the other owned, most 4-year-olds but only a minority of adults declared that the device should be returned to its owner even before the borrower had a chance to use it."

I don't really get that question. The person who borrowed the cell phone is already using it so how can they be asked to return it before using it?

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Heroic Common Sense
06/26/11 8:00:00 PM
#30:


[This message was deleted at the request of the original poster]
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Heroic Common Sense
06/26/11 8:00:00 PM
#31:


The cell phone thing bothered me too, TRE. The article doesn't mention why the user has the phone in the first place, and for all we know they're dialing 911 with it.

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KommunistKoala
06/26/11 8:02:00 PM
#32:


typical capitalist propaganda

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neoneaper
06/26/11 8:06:00 PM
#33:


hold on didnt read the cell phone part yet, holy cow at Kongo/Barry. holy cow.

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ImTheMacheteGuy
06/26/11 8:11:00 PM
#34:


I was contradicting Ulti in another topic about a half hour or so ago and now I'm in this topic, also one that Ulti is involved but this time on his side because he seems strongly against SmartMuffin whose arguments I've only skimmed over but f*** it he's SmartMuffin.

The only true conclusion I've come to is that board 8 is lots of fun

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neoneaper
06/26/11 8:15:00 PM
#35:


interesting about the cell phone. I wonder if adults put themselves in the shoes of someone who needs the phone? or from the outside, do they pity the person who needs the phone over the person who owns it? do they attach a lack of need to the phone owner?

Do you think such things are just ingrained into the minds of people, or are they a natural development from living in the world for a bit?

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OmarsComin
06/26/11 8:24:00 PM
#36:


Are there other animals besides us who seem to display "ownership" or whatever? Like my cat has a favorite sleeping spot and my ferret has a favorite rubber ball but I'm not sure they view those the way we view a cell phone.
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neoneaper
06/26/11 8:28:00 PM
#37:


My dachshunds have identical toys, but if one sees the other using one, it goes to use whatever force necessarily to take it. Even if was already using the identical toy. Dogs have a lot of ownership characteristics, I think.

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 8:35:00 PM
#38:


I'm impressed you spelled "dachshund" correctly dude, no joke. I see so many owners that get it wrong, or people who claim to be into dogs getting it wrong. It's one of those breeds that's easy to mess up.

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neoneaper
06/26/11 8:37:00 PM
#39:


I usually just call them sausage dogs or teckels, because we use our dogs to track wounded animals and my mother runs a German club for that.

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neoneaper
06/26/11 8:43:00 PM
#40:


So I've thought on it more. I imagine adults try to qualify the phone borrowing. If you ask to borrow a phone, and the person says yes, but then say no... why? Seems neurotic or rude. I'd side with property rights but I'd think the guy is a dick. Why establish the owner/borrower situation if you want to revoke it so quickly? I could see adults siding with the the guy who seems to be in need. It'd be interesting to see the reasoning, it's too bad they didn't seem to obtain that, so we can sit around and guess at it :(

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 8:50:00 PM
#41:


neoneaper posted...
So I've thought on it more. I imagine adults try to qualify the phone borrowing. If you ask to borrow a phone, and the person says yes, but then say no... why? Seems neurotic or rude. I'd side with property rights but I'd think the guy is a dick. Why establish the owner/borrower situation if you want to revoke it so quickly? I could see adults siding with the the guy who seems to be in need. It'd be interesting to see the reasoning, it's too bad they didn't seem to obtain that, so we can sit around and guess at it :(

People who see the world in black and white and always favor corporate values don't think this way.

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XIII_foolmo
06/26/11 8:51:00 PM
#42:


So you mean kids that grow up in a capitalist world understand ownership?

shocking

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charmander6000
06/26/11 8:55:00 PM
#43:


Who knew, capitalism comes natural!

Most people that have looked at history and made the next step?

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Ry Senkari
06/26/11 9:09:00 PM
#44:


Aren't children always talking about how it isn't fair when people don't share?

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LeonhartFour
06/26/11 10:21:00 PM
#45:


From: Ry Senkari | #044
Aren't children always talking about how it isn't fair when people don't share?


Only when someone won't share with them.

But ask them to share with someone else, and you'll get a different story!

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red sox 777
06/26/11 11:00:00 PM
#46:


Only when someone won't share with them.

But ask them to share with someone else, and you'll get a different story!


Actually, my experience has been that most children do not complain that others won't share with them. They complain that their parents won't buy them the things the other child's parents bought. Children are generally aware of the property rights of the other child; but they feel they deserve the same, so they demand it from their parents.

Children also protest that it's not fair when they are forced to share with others. And they are quite right in that scenario.

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LeonhartFour
06/26/11 11:04:00 PM
#47:


Eh, from my experience, siblings will complain that other siblings won't share with them if they have a sense that whatever they're playing with doesn't belong to any one of them but to all of them.

But kids definitely have a strong sense of ownership and what they think belongs to them.

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UltimaterializerX
06/26/11 11:05:00 PM
#48:


Children also protest that it's not fair when they are forced to share with others. And they are quite right in that scenario.

Vouch. This is precisely when children are taught property rights don't matter, too. You should absolutely not be forced to share what is yours.

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dethfdddddh
06/26/11 11:50:00 PM
#49:


SmartMuffin posted...
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/74983/title/Kids_own_up_to_ownership

Who knew, capitalism comes natural! You have to be indoctrinated out of it!


Pretty surprising considering the importance that hunting-gathering societies place on sharing.

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SlymDayspring
06/27/11 5:49:00 AM
#50:


Shocking news: Smartmuffin's thought process are more understood by children than adults

I will fully grant you your point, children probably do see things your way more than adults. congratulations.

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