Poll of the Day > Apartment is forcing smart tech on us and being super sketchy about it

(+) Yeah! (+)

streamofthesky posted...

or prevent constructive eviction attempt

Technically you can't prevent those regardless, and I'm not sure an electronic lock has any real impact on that either way. Why do you think they'll evict you anyway?

streamofthesky posted...

I don't know how well either of those hold up, legally. Extremely vague language, and "reasonable" is subjective. I'd still like to know if there's a requirement in law about minimum notice to tenants for such changes, since they're so confident in the legality of this that they...dropped it on us last second and wanted an immediate signature.

The fact that they've given you an addendum to sign suggests that they don't believe that provision adequately covers them

The only thing is that if you want to continue leaving there, you'd have to get the thing installed when your lease is renewed because it'll probably be in the new contract and at that point they could try to very legally strong-arm you into paying for it yourself (which you could obviously push back on since they'd have to install it for their new tenant anyway).

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Zeus posted...

Technically you can't prevent those regardless, and I'm not sure an electronic lock has any real impact on that either way. Why do you think they'll evict you anyway?

I think he means the thermostat...
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In short the apartment owner has full rights to change things in your apartment, especially a minor change like this. My apartment complex is having a massive remodel of our decks outside meaning I had to move that stuff inside my place temporarily. Covid started the shut down about 5 days before I was going to have my deck torn down, so that went even longer my apartment complex gave me $200 for the inconvenience the only way I could fight this is moving out PERIOD.

If you want full control over your place BUY it, then you get 100% control over what happens to it. Keep in mind owning a place is a HUGE cash sink though constantly have to replace things. This is a super small change that will take nearly no time to install and the only way you get charged is if you break it. Makes sense it's the same thing the apartment complex can do if you throw something through your window accidentally or not. The change they are making is super small and will be basically 0 inconvenience to you.

@MartianManchild

You dropped your gimmick?

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SunWuKung420 posted...

@MartianManchild

You dropped your gimmick?

Not really sure what you are talking about.

MartianManchild posted...

Not really sure what you are talking about.

Yeah I don't get Sunny too. Nobody does.

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MartianManchild posted...

Not really sure what you are talking about.

You know, all those topics about your mom disappointing you. Did you forget about the whole "manchild" shtick?

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wwinterj25 posted...

Yeah I don't get Sunny too. Nobody does.

Most people, when exposed to concepts beyond their understanding, can't even see reality.

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Most people, when exposed to concepts beyond their understanding, can't even see reality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlRUmkqMIe8

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Not gonna lie that legalise basically gives the owner rights to any sexy time video they record of you so they can sell it for profit

The third basically says he can record you and have access to sound and video in the form of data. The last paragraph basically says if he uploads it you wont be able to sue for any damages to your reputation or business.

If you sign it send them a bottle of ky. You know they are gonna need it for your household and others

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wwinterj25 posted...

Again what is your condition? You keep drawing your own conclusions based on nothing.

Yet you're the one who was defending Martian's statements.

Monopoman posted...

In short the apartment owner has full rights to change things in your apartment, especially a minor change like this. My apartment complex is having a massive remodel of our decks outside meaning I had to move that stuff inside my place temporarily. Covid started the shut down about 5 days before I was going to have my deck torn down, so that went even longer my apartment complex gave me $200 for the inconvenience the only way I could fight this is moving out PERIOD.

If you want full control over your place BUY it, then you get 100% control over what happens to it. Keep in mind owning a place is a HUGE cash sink though constantly have to replace things. This is a super small change that will take nearly no time to install and the only way you get charged is if you break it. Makes sense it's the same thing the apartment complex can do if you throw something through your window accidentally or not. The change they are making is super small and will be basically 0 inconvenience to you.

Only if you can avoid living in a nazi neighborhood with HOAs.

ScritchOwl posted...

Not gonna lie that legalise basically gives the owner rights to any sexy time video they record of you so they can sell it for profit

The third basically says he can record you and have access to sound and video in the form of data. The last paragraph basically says if he uploads it you wont be able to sue for any damages to your reputation or business.

If you sign it send them a bottle of ky. You know they are gonna need it for your household and others

Lol.
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Revelation34 posted...

Yet you're the one who was defending Martian's statements.

All I can say is I hope you're getting the help you need.

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Monopoman posted...

In short the apartment owner has full rights to change things in your apartment

No, tenancy laws place pretty considerable restrictions on what owners can and can't do to occupied rental properties. They have to, given the massive imbalance of power between renters and landlords. Generally speaking, reasonable changes that don't have a significant impact on the tenants' quality of life are permitted, given proper notice and accommodations, but there are still laws that must be followed.

Monopoman posted...

The change they are making is super small and will be basically 0 inconvenience to you.

The fact that he's going to be liable for anyone breaking into his apartment after the new stuff is put in place is almost certainly going to result in an increase in his tenant insurance rates, if his insurance company gets wind of that. His building excusing themselves of any responsibility for maintaining working locks is a pretty huge deal, and doesn't exactly inspire confidence in how secure these news systems are. Giving themselves the ability to adjust his thermostat is also potentially a problem (see possibility outlined above of using it to drive him out without actually having to go through the legal eviction process), especially with no restrictions outlined in the agreement. And then there's the privacy issue (the addendum explicitly includes giving the service provider the ability to collect personally identifiable data as they see fit), plus expecting tenants to pay for renovations to the building after leaving if they don't want to get on board right now (which is very much not the pretense under which the security deposit was collected when the lease was signed).

All in all, it's pretty questionable, and the fact that they're rushing this out in what I can only imagine is a bid to scare people into signing before they have chance to consult legal counsel tells me they recognize that. If I had to guess, the building owners had an offer to reduce their insurance costs if they made this upgrade, and they're trying to railroad it through without having to deal with the potentially complicated legalities of it all.

I have another question. Since liability is getting put on TC's renters insurance, how does that work if the building is at fault? I mean, what if TC mentions a problem with the locks, and the building doesn't fix them in time and his stuff gets stolen? Since they removed themselves from liability, are they still not liable? Or do they become liable since they didn't maintain the locks?
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streamofthesky posted...

This will unfortunately serve as a final reminder to come into the office today to receive your temporary four digit pin for your new upcoming smart home device. Please be advised, if you have not received a code before your installation date you could risk being locked outside of your apartment home. If you are out of town, please call the office to discuss alternative routes.
If you have any questions, please feel free to call the Leasing Office at [phone number]

I'm surprised I haven't seen more people discuss this.

Regardless of everything else, this one in particular seems super sketchy. Not sure where the TC lives, but this is illegal in most states.
You can't lock tenants out of property they are currently renting. Especially if this prevents the tenants from accessing their personal property.

But seriously TC, instead of whining about it on here, you should've taken other people's advice and contacted a lawyer.

Xfma100 posted...

But seriously TC, instead of whining about it on here, you should've taken other people's advice and contacted a lawyer.

That was kinda hard to do on a weekend and all. Part of the initial panic of dropping this on us on Friday and demanding a signature that weekend.

Anyway, on that note... I did get a bit of a "reality check" in regards to lawyers and law services...
Tried the law firm my friend suggested to me as soon as they opened. Got a person, directed to someone and got their voicemail, left a message. Haven't been called back.
Tried a fair housing office phone number, but they only provide help to low income. She did give me a number for a "self help" system through the courts.
I called that...there's a wait. Offers to let me type in my number and get a call back "without losing my place in the queue". I do so. Not at all shockingly...no call back as of yet.

I figured it'd be a pain in the ass to get some basic consultation, so I wasn't really shocked but...it's one thing to be pessimistic and another to be proven right. I don't usually expect my pessimism to be so dead on accurate.

Also, the leasing office finally sent me something in writing about my requirement to pay for the locks after I move out, and the cost:

Hope youre doing well. Please respond to this email if you are opting out of the Smart Home and that you agree to pay the $95 for the lock change upon move-out. Also, the lease contract will not be renewed at the end of the lease term that you signed. If we dont receive a response to this email, we will be proceeding on the installation of the Smart Home.
Thank you and have a good day.

Nicer than the other emails, too. $95 isn't a lot, and pursuing it in court would not be worth it. I still don't see how the hell it's legal at all, but until I can speak to a lawyer, it's kind of a haze.
Like I said before, whether I sign or not, I need to get the fuck out of here (either they make me leave if I don't sign, or I don't want to stay if I do), so it's probably not worth it to fight this...
The last bit is new (never presented as an option before!) and intriguing...if I do nothing, they install it w/o me signing the addendum. I assume they'll then try to prevent me from getting a temp code till I do, but then they're threatening to lock out a paying and law-abiding tenant that's under a lease, which seems even more illegal than paying for their smart lock...
Hopefully I can talk to a lawyer soon, at least now I have my questions narrowed down to whether two things specifically are legal (paying for the lock, and being locked out by the apartment owners)

If they lock you out, call the police. That is definitely illegal. I mean, youve already paid rent. And have a lease. They cant lock you out to force you to sign something...
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Well keep in mind also that the smaller the thing you are going after the more difficult legal representation is going to be. If the claim amount is say under $200 you will likely spend more than that on legal fees just speaking with a lawyer and having him get everything ready.

Now there might be some services designed to help a renter out in this case, but many times with smaller things like this most people represent themselves instead of paying a lawyer $250 to win a potential $200 for an example.

streamofthesky posted...

Also, the leasing office finally sent me something in writing about my requirement to pay for the locks after I move out, and the cost:

Nicer than the other emails, too. $95 isn't a lot, and pursuing it in court would not be worth it. I still don't see how the hell it's legal at all, but until I can speak to a lawyer, it's kind of a haze.
Like I said before, whether I sign or not, I need to get the fuck out of here (either they make me leave if I don't sign, or I don't want to stay if I do), so it's probably not worth it to fight this...
The last bit is new (never presented as an option before!) and intriguing...if I do nothing, they install it w/o me signing the addendum. I assume they'll then try to prevent me from getting a temp code till I do, but then they're threatening to lock out a paying and law-abiding tenant that's under a lease, which seems even more illegal than paying for their smart lock...
Hopefully I can talk to a lawyer soon, at least now I have my questions narrowed down to whether two things specifically are legal (paying for the lock, and being locked out by the apartment owners)

I lol'd at that email. There's literally no legal basis to their false dilemma. It's just a landlord trying to bully and intimidate tenants because they don't have a leg to stand on.

The only issue is that they'll try to keep part of your deposit and you'd need to either sue or strongarm them for the money. Alternatively, you could ask to be released from your lease early with no penalty on a safety grounds and see if they go for that. I'm not sure how long your lease term is, though.

Monopoman posted...

Well keep in mind also that the smaller the thing you are going after the more difficult legal representation is going to be. If the claim amount is say under $200 you will likely spend more than that on legal fees just speaking with a lawyer and having him get everything ready.

Now there might be some services designed to help a renter out in this case, but many times with smaller things like this most people represent themselves instead of paying a lawyer $250 to win a potential $200 for an example.

You don't need to hire legal representation for small claims. You'd just argue in front of a judge.

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I would invest in an interior hidden security cam just in case they try shit.

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Zeus posted...

I lol'd at that email. There's literally no legal basis to their false dilemma. It's just a landlord trying to bully and intimidate tenants because they don't have a leg to stand on.

The only issue is that they'll try to keep part of your deposit and you'd need to either sue or strongarm them for the money. Alternatively, you could ask to be released from your lease early with no penalty on a safety grounds and see if they go for that. I'm not sure how long your lease term is, though.

Yup, seems pretty damn illegal.
But none of the lawyers I left voicemails for got back to me, and the real deadline was reached ("they're doing your section tomorrow"), so I gave up and just signed the damn form.
I am getting a door chain installed, so that's...something.

Gotta move out. Would've had to whether I signed or not, so I may as well avoid the legal hassle. When I do move, it might be to a different state (been debating that for a while...getting a job somewhere else, well before this happened). So the specter of having to take them to small claims court was rather unappealing, especially since state law gives them like 1-2 months to return my security deposit, so I'd have to wait till then to do it and possibly be living far away.

streamofthesky posted...

Yup, seems pretty damn illegal.
But none of the lawyers I left voicemails for got back to me, and the real deadline was reached ("they're doing your section tomorrow"), so I gave up and just signed the damn form.
I am getting a door chain installed, so that's...something.

Gotta move out. Would've had to whether I signed or not, so I may as well avoid the legal hassle. When I do move, it might be to a different state (been debating that for a while...getting a job somewhere else, well before this happened). So the specter of having to take them to small claims court was rather unappealing, especially since state law gives them like 1-2 months to return my security deposit, so I'd have to wait till then to do it and possibly be living far away.

You should not have signed if you plan to move out anyway.

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Lonestar2000 posted...

You should not have signed if you plan to move out anyway.

By signing, he wont have to pay when he moves out. Since hes moving out anyway, signing is probably the better option in this case...
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Well it looks like I was right once again. The reason none of the lawyers got back to you is because there is no case. They literally listened to your message and were like this isnt even worth my time calling back.

MartianManchild posted...

Well it looks like I was right once again. The reason none of the lawyers got back to you is because there is no case. They literally listened to your message and were like this isnt even worth my time calling back.

Or they had better cases to work on. This cases would have only gotten them a small percentage of a security deposit back, at best. Where they could get more for other cases. Unless you have proof...
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LinkPizza posted...

Unless you have proof...

Wheres your proof for anything that Ive said in this topic being wrong? My proof is none of the lawyers even bothered to call him back. I said he would basically be laughed at by a lawyers with this type of claim and them not even calling back is the professional way of saying your claim is ridiculous kiddo.

MartianManchild posted...

Wheres your proof for anything that Ive said in this topic being wrong? My proof is none of the lawyers even bothered to call him back. I said he would basically be laughed at by a lawyers with this type of claim and them not even calling back is the professional way of saying your claim is ridiculous kiddo.

You have no proof that what you said was right, either. Ive heard many assumptions, though. Like all apartments have lawyers, or that the only reason they didnt call back was because they was no case. Where others have even explained where they might be a case. Though, it is based location. The lawyer not calling back isnt proof of anything. It they have cases where they can get more, they would take those. Plus, with how quickly this is happening, they may not have had time to work on it, or have other time sensitive things to work on that would pay better. The only amount they would probably get is part of a small security deposit. Not only that, but depending on what the case becomes, they might not even be able to sue for attorneys fees. Again, that depends on everything about the cases. So, you have no proof that, them not even calling back is the professional way of saying your claim is ridiculous...
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MartianManchild posted...

Well it looks like I was right once again. The reason none of the lawyers got back to you is because there is no case. They literally listened to your message and were like this isnt even worth my time calling back.

You ever going to say what law school you graduated from?

LinkPizza posted...

You have no proof that what you said was right, either. Ive heard many assumptions, though. Like all apartments have lawyers, or that the only reason they didnt call back was because they was no case. Where others have even explained where they might be a case. Though, it is based location. The lawyer not calling back isnt proof of anything. It they have cases where they can get more, they would take those. Plus, with how quickly this is happening, they may not have had time to work on it, or have other time sensitive things to work on that would pay better. The only amount they would probably get is part of a small security deposit. Not only that, but depending on what the case becomes, they might not even be able to sue for attorneys fees. Again, that depends on everything about the cases. So, you have no proof that, them not even calling back is the professional way of saying your claim is ridiculous...

Most courthouses are closed or have very limited hours right now too.
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LinkPizza posted...

By signing, he wont have to pay when he moves out. Since hes moving out anyway, signing is probably the better option in this case...

He wouldn't have to pay either way, although in theory it makes it easier for him... but in practical senses, any landlord who would pull this stunt will fuck you over when you try to move out regardless.

MartianManchild posted...

Well it looks like I was right once again. The reason none of the lawyers got back to you is because there is no case. They literally listened to your message and were like this isnt even worth my time calling back.

That's literally not how anything works. How the hell do you function in society... oh right, this is your gimmick still. I didn't realize that all of your nonsense was just you being in character.


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Zeus posted...

He wouldn't have to pay either way, although in theory it makes it easier for him... but in practical senses, any landlord who would pull this stunt will fuck you over when you try to move out regardless.

I did say earlier that if they were trying to do this to him, theyd probably try to keep his deposit and shit, anyway. They seem like the kind of apartment that will try to fuck too over anyway they can. And lie about everything...
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Zeus posted...

That's literally not how anything works. How the hell do you function in society... oh right, this is your gimmick still. I didn't realize that all of your nonsense was just you being in character.

He still refuses to say what law school he graduated from too.
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_AdjI_ posted...

Meanwhile, tumbler locks haven't been secure for about as long as they've existed. Yeah, hacking a smart lock is possible for anyone with the right software and who knows what they're doing, but so is picking a traditional lock.

it's possible to get into many (especially cheap) smart locks quicker than any physical lock, through a simple physical attack.
even quicker than punching in a code: plop a magnet onto the side of the keypad.

lockpickinglawyer on YouTube showed it off in a couple of videos, a magnet in the right spot can trigger an "open" signal to be sent out causing the door to just pop open instantly.
https://youtu.be/KHvfwpnPwwU
https://youtu.be/XXW27KKHtc8

I also feel like picking a lock is harder just because you have to take time and it look more suspicious. I feel like hacking a smart lock might not take as long (at the door, at least) and might not look as suspicious. Of course, I would need to see, as I dont pick or hack locks...
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