Current Events > "Teach men not to rape"

(+) Yeah! (+)

Ruvan22 posted...

DuranOfForcena posted...

butthole666 posted...

coh posted...

Majority of men already know not to rape. That slogan is about as effective as "teach people not to murder"

They really dont, though

yes they do, fuck off with this bullshit

Brock Turner?

Oh shit I didnt realize he is the poster boy for all men
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DuranOfForcena posted...

the electoral college elected him as president. he lost the popular vote.

And he has hundreds of thousands of cultists that still support him.
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Ruvan22 posted...

DuranOfForcena posted...

Ruvan22 posted...

DuranOfForcena posted...

butthole666 posted...

coh posted...

Majority of men already know not to rape. That slogan is about as effective as "teach people not to murder"

They really dont, though

yes they do, fuck off with this bullshit

Brock Turner?

???

what is the point of this post?

You didn't want to provide any evidence that "majority of men know not to rape", I was pointing out one who didn't

One person hardly represents a majority
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People forget things. If we didnt we'd all be winning trivia game shows.
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ChocoboMogALT posted...

How to teach men not to rape: https://www.insidehighered.com/advice/2017/03/10/professor-describes-how-she-teaches-students-about-sexual-assault-essay
I can't find the paper, but studies have shown that teach men not to rape works. Even the slightest education cuts down on reported sexual assaults.

Cat Paus (@FOMNZ) is a fat studies scholar at Massey University in New Zealand. She hosted Fat Studies: Reflective Intersections in New Zealand in 2012 and Fat Studies: Identity, Agency, Embodiment in 2016, and her fat-positive radio show, Friend of Marilyn, is traveling the world this year.

hmm

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A lot of people actually don't understand sexual scripts and consent. We're not talking about jump out from behind the bush and drag you into an alley rapists. That's a relatively small group of rapists anyway. Most rapists are known to their victims. We're talking about them rapists that know their victims, that interact with them repeatedly, and that ignore signs or statements withdrawing consent.

If you ask people whether rape is okay, even rapists will say no. That doesn't mean anything. But when you start talking to people about specific situations and what is okay and what is not, you will receive some shocking answers and thats where the teaching comes in. Basic actual teaching about how to navigate consent safely would fix a lot of things and save a lot of pain for everyone. Instead, we leave it up to parents who don't wanna talk about it and teens to share info with each other when there's no guarantee they have any idea what they're talking about.
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legendary_zell posted...

A lot of people actually don't understand sexual scripts and consent. We're not talking about jump out from behind the bush and drag you into an alley rapists. That's a relatively small group of rapists anyway. Most rapists are known to their victims. We're talking about them rapists that know their victims, that interact with them repeatedly, and that ignore signs or statements withdrawing consent.

If you ask people whether rape is okay, even rapists will say no. That doesn't mean anything. But when you start talking to people about specific situations and what is okay and what is not, you will receive some shocking answers and thats where the teaching comes in. Basic actual teaching about how to navigate consent safely would fix a lot of things and save a lot of pain for everyone. Instead, we leave it up to parents who don't wanna talk about it and teens to share info with each other when there's no guarantee they have any idea what they're talking about.

A lot of those shocking answers come from misleading or confusingly presented scenarios. They don't describe the actual rape.

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DuranOfForcena posted...

so? the majority of society condemns him, and "we" did not elect him president.

Okay but it's still a fucking problem that 40% of the US supports him >_>

And it's still a fucking problem that he's the President.
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berlyman101 posted...

legendary_zell posted...

A lot of people actually don't understand sexual scripts and consent. We're not talking about jump out from behind the bush and drag you into an alley rapists. That's a relatively small group of rapists anyway. Most rapists are known to their victims. We're talking about them rapists that know their victims, that interact with them repeatedly, and that ignore signs or statements withdrawing consent.

If you ask people whether rape is okay, even rapists will say no. That doesn't mean anything. But when you start talking to people about specific situations and what is okay and what is not, you will receive some shocking answers and thats where the teaching comes in. Basic actual teaching about how to navigate consent safely would fix a lot of things and save a lot of pain for everyone. Instead, we leave it up to parents who don't wanna talk about it and teens to share info with each other when there's no guarantee they have any idea what they're talking about.

A lot of those shocking answers come from misleading or confusingly presented scenarios. They don't describe the actual rape.

Bruh did you not read what he said. Everyone agrees rape is bad.
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DuranOfForcena posted...

correct

but that being a problem doesn't mean that all men need to be taught not to rape

Obviously it means that many do >_>
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berlyman101 posted...

legendary_zell posted...

A lot of people actually don't understand sexual scripts and consent. We're not talking about jump out from behind the bush and drag you into an alley rapists. That's a relatively small group of rapists anyway. Most rapists are known to their victims. We're talking about them rapists that know their victims, that interact with them repeatedly, and that ignore signs or statements withdrawing consent.

If you ask people whether rape is okay, even rapists will say no. That doesn't mean anything. But when you start talking to people about specific situations and what is okay and what is not, you will receive some shocking answers and thats where the teaching comes in. Basic actual teaching about how to navigate consent safely would fix a lot of things and save a lot of pain for everyone. Instead, we leave it up to parents who don't wanna talk about it and teens to share info with each other when there's no guarantee they have any idea what they're talking about.

A lot of those shocking answers come from misleading or confusingly presented scenarios. They don't describe the actual rape.

Well the actual, real life situations where these things happen are confusing and ambiguous. That's the problem. We have to prepare people to handle that ambiguity and not just barrel ahead assuming they have consent. Just a little hesitation, a little questioning, a little thinking about the situation can help a lot.

Equipping guys with those tools isn't maligning them or accusing them of all being animals or rapists in waiting. It's harm prevention. Just like in elementary school you actually do have to affirmatively teach all children not to simply hit people even when they're mad or frustrated or feel threatened. Some people wouldn't do it anyway but a lot more people will do it if you don't give them strategies on how to avoid it.
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MorbidFaithless posted...

Bruh did you not read what he said. Everyone agrees rape is bad.

then why would anyone ever agree that rape is justifiable? I'm not disputing his account, I'm offering explanation. We're wired to take context into consideration and in these "teachable" scenarios they're presented in a way that gives weighted context to the consensual activity and then he (always a he) rapes her (always a her).

Look at the one posted above by the fat studies professor. the scenario does everything to describe what would lead to a rape without describing the act of rape. Then she expresses dismay when the majority express even a fraction of doubt as to what occurred.

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legendary_zell posted...

Well the actual, real life situations where these things happen are confusing and ambiguous. That's the problem. We have to prepare people to handle that ambiguity and not just barrel ahead assuming they have consent. Just a little hesitation, a little questioning, a little thinking about the situation can help a lot.

Equipping guys with those tools isn't maligning them or accusing them of all being animals or rapists in waiting. It's harm prevention. Just like in elementary school you actually do have to affirmatively teach all children not to simply hit people even when they're mad or frustrated or feel threatened. Some people wouldn't do it anyway but a lot more people will do it if you don't give them strategies on how to avoid it.

I mean, you can also teach women to be less ambiguous in their revoking of consent if the problem is not correctly interpreting mixed signals, but I'm guessing people would consider the idea offensive, so let's go back to talking about how men need to be taught not to rape.
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ZMythos posted...

ThePrinceFish posted...

Almost as weird as pretending that society doesn't already condemn rapists as human trash.

We elected one as President.

Who's this "we"?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Who's this "we"?

In this context, "we" stands for "a saddening, sickening number of people in the United States"
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Why men great til they gotta not rape

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legendary_zell posted...

Well the actual, real life situations where these things happen are confusing and ambiguous. That's the problem. We have to prepare people to handle that ambiguity and not just barrel ahead assuming they have consent. Just a little hesitation, a little questioning, a little thinking about the situation can help a lot.

Equipping guys with those tools isn't maligning them or accusing them of all being animals or rapists in waiting. It's harm prevention. Just like in elementary school you actually do have to affirmatively teach all children not to simply hit people even when they're mad or frustrated or feel threatened. Some people wouldn't do it anyway but a lot more people will do it if you don't give them strategies on how to avoid it.

That's a fair assessment. My issue is that there seems to be disagreement over the best way to teach it. We as a society can't even largely agree what constitutes self-defense or justified killings. Every state in the US and every country has their own laws and the results in trials differ wildly, so while everyone can agree that it's not OK to hit someone for taking the cookie you wanted, real adult life is way more complex and sex in our society is very complex. Teaching someone not to do something is grounded in the idea that there's a better way to get your needs met largely based in compromise. Most don't agree that sex is a right, however, and so a compromise in such a situation would be ludicrous. Sex is ubiquitously used as a bargaining chip, further complicating things. I think this is going to stay a mess for a while as long as we have this cognitive dissonance.

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s0nicfan posted...

I mean, you can also teach women to

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ITT misandry
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CyricZ posted...

s0nicfan posted...

I mean, you can also teach women to

I understand the idea of a woman having agency in a sexual encounter is strange and alien to you, which is why I added this in my original post:
s0nicfan posted...

but I'm guessing people would consider the idea offensive, so let's go back to talking about how men need to be taught not to rape.

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s0nicfan posted...

legendary_zell posted...

Well the actual, real life situations where these things happen are confusing and ambiguous. That's the problem. We have to prepare people to handle that ambiguity and not just barrel ahead assuming they have consent. Just a little hesitation, a little questioning, a little thinking about the situation can help a lot.

Equipping guys with those tools isn't maligning them or accusing them of all being animals or rapists in waiting. It's harm prevention. Just like in elementary school you actually do have to affirmatively teach all children not to simply hit people even when they're mad or frustrated or feel threatened. Some people wouldn't do it anyway but a lot more people will do it if you don't give them strategies on how to avoid it.

I mean, you can also teach women to be less ambiguous in their revoking of consent if the problem is not correctly interpreting mixed signals, but I'm guessing people would consider the idea offensive, so let's go back to talking about how men need to be taught not to rape.

I think you could do that if it wasn't wielded as a weapon by anti-feminists or a way to victim blame. It has to be done as part of a general push for increased communication and sexual openness, not as a reaction against feminism. I've never seen that happen so far, but I'd support it if it could be done. Feminists are already pushing for it though in terms of advocating for increased sexual agency for women.

Women needing to be taught doesn't negate the fact that men also have much to learn.
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Generally when I have a problem with teach men not to rape its when the phrase comes after dont teach women how to not get raped. If I ever have a daughter, I would absolutely use the errors of victims to teach her how to not be a victim.
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s0nicfan posted...

but I'm guessing people would consider the idea offensive, so let's go back to talking about how men need to be taught not to rape.

You getting ahead of your own shit take is not a gotcha.
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Chicken_Butt posted...

Men and white people are being treated like absolute shit by all the people demanding equality and fairness or calling for an end to racism or sexism. Makes no sense. What is even going on with society anymore?

@Chicken_Butt

I saw this YouTube video about a people study. They took all the white people alway and put them in a shit room while they talked to the minorities. They told them to treat the white people like shit when they got back, and I guess the study turned out to be a something of note. I wish I could find the video again, but I can't.

Anyways, it seems as if that is what people in West are doing now, trying to make white people feel how it feels to be hated for based on nothing other than your skin color, and it's working on a lot of people. That's a main reason why there are so many NEETs and "Nice Guys" around now - They are too afraid of coming off looking like a pervert by hitting on women and those types of men simply don't really get dates.

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legendary_zell posted...

I think you could do that if it wasn't wielded as a weapon by anti-feminists or a way to victim blame. It has to be done as part of a general push for increased communication and sexual openness, not as a reaction against feminism. I've never seen that happen so far, but I'd support it if it could be done. Feminists are already pushing for it though in terms of advocating for increased sexual agency for women.

Women needing to be taught doesn't negate the fact that men also have much to learn.

This is completely fair. I'm just seeing a lot of acting like women don't have agency in these encounters, and if we are really trying to reduce the likelihood of these events happening and not just trying to shit on one gender, then a balanced approach to make sure both sides understand how to avoid sending or receiving mixed signals would be much more effective.
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This strikes at the core of everything!
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There's also the fact that all crimes, including rape used to be way more common than they are now. Human nature probably didn't change fundamentally in the last few hundred years, so what happened? It wasn't increased punishment because the punishment for rape used to be death.

We literally taught people not to rape. Especially men. There's still more work to do on that, that's all people are saying.
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s0nicfan posted...

legendary_zell posted...

I think you could do that if it wasn't wielded as a weapon by anti-feminists or a way to victim blame. It has to be done as part of a general push for increased communication and sexual openness, not as a reaction against feminism. I've never seen that happen so far, but I'd support it if it could be done. Feminists are already pushing for it though in terms of advocating for increased sexual agency for women.

Women needing to be taught doesn't negate the fact that men also have much to learn.

This is completely fair. I'm just seeing a lot of acting like women don't have agency in these encounters, and if we are really trying to reduce the likelihood of these events happening and not just trying to shit on one gender, then a balanced approach to make sure both sides understand how to avoid sending or receiving mixed signals would be much more effective.

Agreed. Thanks for being reasonable.
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legendary_zell posted...

There's also the fact that all crimes, including rape used to be way more common than they are now. Human nature probably didn't change fundamentally in the last few hundred years, so what happened? It wasn't increased punishment because the punishment for rape used to be death.

We literally taught people not to rape. Especially men. There's still more work to do on that, that's all people are saying.

Uh all crime has gone down and there's a lot of reasons for that. It has nothing really to do with "teaching men"
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*sees topic title*
*sees how many posts there are*
*knows this topic is on CE, and thus this topic is probably terrible*
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legendary_zell posted...

There's also the fact that all crimes, including rape used to be way more common than they are now. Human nature probably didn't change fundamentally in the last few hundred years, so what happened?

Standard of living increases and less wealth inequality.
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pls posted...

legendary_zell posted...

There's also the fact that all crimes, including rape used to be way more common than they are now. Human nature probably didn't change fundamentally in the last few hundred years, so what happened? It wasn't increased punishment because the punishment for rape used to be death.

We literally taught people not to rape. Especially men. There's still more work to do on that, that's all people are saying.

Uh all crime has gone down and there's a lot of reasons for that. It has nothing really to do with "teaching men"

That's true of course, but I'd also say there's been a dramatic shift in the attitudes and sexual aggressiveness of men in Western societies at least and I think this is a crime that responds especially strongly to attitudes.
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Mary and Bob know each other from class, and they decide to go out together one evening. They go to a bar, and each consumes several drinks. Mary goes to the bathroom, and when she comes out she has her shirt untucked and her bra is off. She suggests they go back to her room and order dinner in. They eat dinner and lie next to each other on the floor. Bob caresses her face and kisses her. Mary enjoys it and kisses him back. Bob then carries Mary to the bed and kisses her again. Mary realizes what is happening and says, No, I dont want to do this. Bob removes all of her clothes. Mary mumbles, No, very softly and then realizes that she will probably have to give in.

Then I instruct the students to work in small groups to rank this scenario using a Likert scale that ranges from 1 (meaning not rape) to 5 (meaning rape).
When we reconvene as a class, I ask each group to report their ranking of the scenario with Mary and Bob, and I record them on the whiteboard. The rankings usually range from 2 to 5, with most numbers falling between 3.5 and 4.5. (Oh yeah, students always seem to want a 0.5.)
Next, I ask the groups that ranked the scenario with a score of 3.5 or below to explain why they gave the score that they did, to offer what about the scenario led to that score. As these groups share their decision making with the rest of the class, I take notes on the board. After we have exhausted their comments, I then ask those groups who offered a score of 4 or 4.5 what they would like to add to the list. And then, finally, I invite the groups that gave a 5 to share their reasons for this ranking.
The students who label the scenario as rape usually note that Mary said no (more than once) and explain that giving in does not sound like something she wants to be doing. Those groups prioritize what Mary has said when they gave a score of 5 (meaning rape).
Without fail, the responses given by those groups who offered a score below 5 include references to what Mary has done, what her behavior signifies regardless of what she actually says. Mary took off her bra; Mary invited Bob up to her room; Mary did not physically fight back. Sometimes a student will even suggest that Mary was asking for it or question what Mary expected when she acted in such ways.

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legendary_zell posted...

There's also the fact that all crimes, including rape used to be way more common than they are now. Human nature probably didn't change fundamentally in the last few hundred years, so what happened? It wasn't increased punishment because the punishment for rape used to be death.

We literally taught people not to rape. Especially men. There's still more work to do on that, that's all people are saying.

Yeah I'm sure it has nothing to do with the discovery of DNA and being able to test for it to actually prove someone did rape someone else. Not to mention society has become far more liberal in that same time frame and sex is far more freely had then ever before.
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shockthemonkey posted...

Always weird when dudes rally against the idea of teaching people not to rape

How do you teach someone not to rape? Especially when rape is already seen as an abhorrent crime on par with murder.

also why is it just men? What about teaching women not to rape?

It's a weird statement because it's usually in response to discussions about rape prevention. There are the true victim blamers out there, but I don't typically think they are ones having these discussions.

coh posted...

How do you teach someone not to rape? Especially when rape is already seen as an abhorrent crime on par with murder.

also why is it just men? What about teaching women not to rape?

Why are you so against this? Is this personal for you?

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