Poll of the Day > Valley of The Geeks

(+) Yeah! (+)

Interesting observation to be sure, PO.

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And if that were the only case where gambling were a plot point we might be able to handwave it, but there's pod races, an entire space Las Vegas, and the fact that ownership of the Millennium Falcon was determined by a rigged bet.

Even ignoring the telekenesis angle, force precognition should invalidate any lottery scheme in universe as well.

This could actually explain how the First Order amasses the financial resources necessary to build ridiculous physics violating mcguffins like the Starkiller Base and it's fleet in less than a generation after the fall of the Empire...

Perhaps Snoke was just a force sensitive high roller. It would explain his penchant for dressing like Hugh Hefner and his idiotic oversight in casually leaving a lightsaber unattended in a room full of motivated force users. At the very least, Palpatine would not have made that same mistake...
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

And if that were the only case where gambling were a plot point we might be able to handwave it, but there's pod races, an entire space Las Vegas, and the fact that ownership of the Millennium Falcon was determined by a rigged bet.

Even ignoring the telekenesis angle, force precognition should invalidate any lottery scheme in universe as well.

This could actually explain how the First Order amasses the financial resources necessary to build ridiculous physics violating mcguffins like the Starkiller Base and it's fleet in less than a generation after the fall of the Empire...

Perhaps Snoke was just a force sensitive high roller. It would explain his penchant for dressing like Hugh Hefner and his idiotic oversight in casually leaving a lightsaber unattended in a room full of motivated force users. At the very least, Palpatine would not have made that same mistake...

They can see the future using the force?
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To a degree, yes

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Revelation34 posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

And if that were the only case where gambling were a plot point we might be able to handwave it, but there's pod races, an entire space Las Vegas, and the fact that ownership of the Millennium Falcon was determined by a rigged bet.

Even ignoring the telekenesis angle, force precognition should invalidate any lottery scheme in universe as well.

This could actually explain how the First Order amasses the financial resources necessary to build ridiculous physics violating mcguffins like the Starkiller Base and it's fleet in less than a generation after the fall of the Empire...

Perhaps Snoke was just a force sensitive high roller. It would explain his penchant for dressing like Hugh Hefner and his idiotic oversight in casually leaving a lightsaber unattended in a room full of motivated force users. At the very least, Palpatine would not have made that same mistake...

They can see the future using the force?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Force_vision/Legends

It's a manifestation of Force Vision.
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Considering that Watto is reduced to street peddling by the time of Episode II, I am guessing that he was always a bit of a dim bulb, anyway.
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Getting seriously pissed at these Punch-Out!-related challenges. So far they might be the first thing to truly annoy me. I also learned that the uppercut is a thing (I *can't* remember it being covered in the normal challenges, unless I missed it) although I'm still figuring out how to reliably trigger it. The big roadblock is Bonus#17 -- KO Glass Joe while avoiding his superpunch (you lose if he hits you with anything twice) -- where I've got it as low as 63 seconds but I guess it needs to be under 60 seconds for the 3 stars. The gameplay vids I watched -- which were kinda helpful -- didn't actually win with 3 stars.

I can't really remember playing much of Punch-Out! on the NES so, while I've always been familiar with the franchise (unlike Balloon Fight), it's not like I have an existing skillset. I will say that I loved Counter Punch on the GBA -- which has a similar premise -- although I never beat the whole thing.

I'm also not sure if I ever bought the Wii remake/reboot of Punch-Out!, although it was one of the titles I was most interested in right towards the beginning of its run. I'll have to look around to see if I own it before thinking about trying to get a copy on the cheap.

Geekworld problems, tbh. Another Geekworld problem? We'll need to come up with the next topic's name in a little over 90 posts.
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Is the remake on Switch?
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Revelation34 posted...

Is the remake on Switch?

No. Just the Wii, the WiiU, and, in China, apparently it's available via "Shield TV"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-Out!!_(Wii)

Granted, I guess since the Joycons can register motion, there's no particularly good reason why they couldn't either port it or make a new version. Well, other than maybe the fact they don't see it as a saleable franchise.
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Zeus posted...

No. Just the Wii, the WiiU, and, in China, apparently it's available via "Shield TV"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-Out!!_(Wii)

Granted, I guess since the Joycons can register motion, there's no particularly good reason why they couldn't either port it or make a new version. Well, other than maybe the fact they don't see it as a saleable franchise.

Eh I won't get a Wii U for just 1 game then. I never had a chance to play the remake. Most of the games I would want on it were ported to Switch with better versions.
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Revelation34 posted...

Zeus posted...

No. Just the Wii, the WiiU, and, in China, apparently it's available via "Shield TV"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch-Out!!_(Wii)

Granted, I guess since the Joycons can register motion, there's no particularly good reason why they couldn't either port it or make a new version. Well, other than maybe the fact they don't see it as a saleable franchise.

Eh I won't get a Wii U for just 1 game then. I never had a chance to play the remake. Most of the games I would want on it were ported to Switch with better versions.

...or you can get it for the Wii. That's also a thing. I'm not sure why you care specifically about the WiiU which, I can only assume, would need to use the Wii's controls.
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Zeus posted...

...or you can get it for the Wii. That's also a thing. I'm not sure why you care specifically about the WiiU which, I can only assume, would need to use the Wii's controls.

I don't even think my Wii works anymore. Plus Wii U is mobile.
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Just checking in, nothing new to report.

I voted today. Old people love to vote. I think they stay alive just to vote. My wife says that we went too early to see the young people, but young people don't vote, at least not in blocks or waves like old people.

And finally a black cat ran out onto the field for the Cowboys Giants game last might. It might be a terrible omen for the season, but the resulting videos and memes are hilarious and worth the ridicule as a Cowboys fan.
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Revelation34 posted...

Zeus posted...

...or you can get it for the Wii. That's also a thing. I'm not sure why you care specifically about the WiiU which, I can only assume, would need to use the Wii's controls.

I don't even think my Wii works anymore. Plus Wii U is mobile.

I somehow don't think that particular title would be mobile.

The Wave Master posted...

I voted today. Old people love to vote. I think they stay alive just to vote. My wife says that we went too early to see the young people, but young people don't vote, at least not in blocks or waves like old people.

And yet young folks can't shut up about politics >_> Granted, I assume they'd vote in the evening, anyway.

I was actually tempted to make a voting topic, considering I was thinking about the fact that, other than 5-10 important posts, I had no information about many of the other candidates. Honestly not sure why certain posts are open to public voting instead of just appointed by elected representatives. Granted, it's even sillier when a certain number of seats have to be filled by members of one party and there are only that many running.
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The Wave Master posted...

Old people love to vote, but young people don't vote.

Aaantlion posted...

And yet young folks can't shut up about politics >_>

Oh God. I don't vote, and I try to avoid political conversations at all costs. I don't exist!
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Aaantlion posted...

I somehow don't think that particular title would be mobile.

All games on a handheld system are mobile.

The Wave Master posted...

Just checking in, nothing new to report.

I voted today. Old people love to vote. I think they stay alive just to vote. My wife says that we went too early to see the young people, but young people don't vote, at least not in blocks or waves like old people.

And finally a black cat ran out onto the field for the Cowboys Giants game last might. It might be a terrible omen for the season, but the resulting videos and memes are hilarious and worth the ridicule as a Cowboys fan.

The Chargers should draft the cat since they need all the help they can get.
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Revelation34 posted...

All games on a handheld system are mobile.

The WiiU wasn't really a handheld system, though?
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Ever have a game where...you just don't get it on the first, second, third...try?

My love of Vagrant Story and SMT:N is largely due to just not getting it on the first or second try, but after a breakthrough I stomped the yard in both.

I can also stomp the yard across many difficulty levels in the first 4 DMC games, but I can never actually beat the first encounter with the spider boss the first one the first time around in the original, despite curbstomping its second form later and other bosses in higher difficulties...

Magna Carta, along with just about any SRPG on the planet vexes me for a number of reasons despite my desire to understand them. Guides do not help.

Well it appears I can at least add a game/franchise to the list that finally clicked...and you're all going to laugh at this one...

MegaMan battle network. In the first one before I had half a clue as to how it worked, I always let the optional Gutsman fight at the beginning queer me to the whole series.

Dumb run of insight/luck and suddenly I find myself understanding a game I've found impenetrable for well over a decade if not 2.

Magna Carta, and the SRPG genre escapes me still, but I feel like I've made some small headway now that I'm understanding bits of MMBN after years of going "fuck that game"...
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Ever have a game where...you just don't get it on the first, second, third...try?

Not really, because any game I really dislike or have trouble with first time through isn't a game that's likely to get a second playthrough from me.

We live in a world with too many books, movies, shows, online videos, games, and other distractions that are constantly demanding my time. I don't have the time or the patience to devote to something that is actively annoying me on the off-chance that it might somehow miraculously turn into something I like eventually.

It's the same reason why I get absolutely no enjoyment out of "frustration gaming" any more. ie, games like Dark Souls where the entire design philosophy is to fail 99 times so the 1 time you succeed feels so good based on the sudden release of all the frustration you've built up. At this point in my life I'd rather play a game that gives me 99/100 minor moments of satisfaction than one that gives me 1 moment of intense satisfaction at the expense of having to torture me 99/100 times.

I've got stacks of books, DVDs, and games I bought at some point and never got around to reading/watching/playing. I have almost zero motivation to ever go back to games that I only remember hating (for whatever reason).
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Ever have a game where...you just don't get it on the first, second, third...try?

Meaning what? Returning to it after taking a break? Probably, especially if you count a gap of years.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Not really, because any game I really dislike or have trouble with first time through isn't a game that's likely to get a second playthrough from me.

We live in a world with too many books, movies, shows, online videos, games, and other distractions that are constantly demanding my time. I don't have the time or the patience to devote to something that is actively annoying me on the off-chance that it might somehow miraculously turn into something I like eventually.

That's a now problem. How about before?

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's the same reason why I get absolutely no enjoyment out of "frustration gaming" any more. ie, games like Dark Souls where the entire design philosophy is to fail 99 times so the 1 time you succeed feels so good based on the sudden release of all the frustration you've built up.

I sometimes get trapped in either a sunk cost fallacy regarding certain frustrating gameplay or it's just something I want to see through for some unfathomable reason.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I've got stacks of books, DVDs, and games I bought at some point and never got around to reading/watching/playing.

I have a sinking suspicion that I'll never get through more than a quarter of everything I own, even if I stopped buying things as often as I have in recent years (which is less often than in the past). I just don't have motivation to start things, particularly if it's something I want to binge and know I can't (Legend of Korra being a great example)
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That, too, is why I never gave coffee a second or fifteenth chance, or as long as it takes to "acquire the taste." There is so much I do like, and tend to understand why I do or don't like a thing. If I am less than enthralled a first time I play a game or try one kind of content in a larger title, I will possibly state why I dislike it, and do something else.

That is why I only played Xenosaga ep.III once, and the other parts twice. That is why I never returned to the pile of shit that called itself Wild Arms 4. I wish I had remembered all I disliked about FFXII before trying it a second time, because I could have saved myself the time, money, and copious aggravation with its many flaws. I could go on, but I suspect you get the picture.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

Ever have a game where...you just don't get it on the first, second, third...try?

Not really, because any game I really dislike or have trouble with first time through isn't a game that's likely to get a second playthrough from me.

We live in a world with too many books, movies, shows, online videos, games, and other distractions that are constantly demanding my time. I don't have the time or the patience to devote to something that is actively annoying me on the off-chance that it might somehow miraculously turn into something I like eventually.

It's the same reason why I get absolutely no enjoyment out of "frustration gaming" any more. ie, games like Dark Souls where the entire design philosophy is to fail 99 times so the 1 time you succeed feels so good based on the sudden release of all the frustration you've built up. At this point in my life I'd rather play a game that gives me 99/100 minor moments of satisfaction than one that gives me 1 moment of intense satisfaction at the expense of having to torture me 99/100 times.

I've got stacks of books, DVDs, and games I bought at some point and never got around to reading/watching/playing. I have almost zero motivation to ever go back to games that I only remember hating (for whatever reason).

On the one hand, I get where you're coming from PO, but on the other... we're literally from the Nintendo Hard era before that was a trope. SMB 8-2. LoZ flute. TMNT's dam. Battletoads. Mike Tyson. Contra.

Sure, we've been softened by progressively softer generations of game design over the years, and I'm not including the IWTBTG's or Super Meat Boys out there, but even ignoring something like Master Blaster or Faxanadu...go put a Babelfish in your ear, or get past the Goat.

We grew up on fridge logic and woeful localizations that outright lied to us...

"Ain't nobody got time for that" just because there's a new season of Bojack Horseman or F is for Family seems like a copout from a Justin Bailey era gamer...
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Entity13 posted...

That is why I only played Xenosaga ep.III once, and the other parts twice. That is why I never returned to the pile of shit that called itself Wild Arms 4. I wish I had remembered all I disliked about FFXII before trying it a second time, because I could have saved myself the time, money, and copious aggravation with its many flaws. I could go on, but I suspect you get the picture.

You say this as a defender of the .hack// stupidity and it will forever vex me.
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Zeus posted...

That's a now problem. How about before?

It's a now problem that's been "now" for nigh on 25-30 years.

So I suppose it's possible there were games I played as a kid between 5-14 or so that I might have disliked at first but later came to love, solely because back then I had no money and could only play whatever games my parents deigned to buy for me, but I'm old now and can't remember any real examples of that. All I really remember is either liking a game immediately because my standards were lower then, or immediately hating a game and never playing it again.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

You say this as a defender of the .hack// stupidity and it will forever vex me.

Hey now, these may be fighting words.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

On the one hand, I get where you're coming from PO, but on the other... we're literally from the Nintendo Hard era before that was a trope. SMB 8-2. LoZ flute. TMNT's dam. Battletoads. Mike Tyson. Contra.

Yeah, but even there there weren't really any memorable "I hate this! Okay, I'll play it again. I love this now!" moments for me.

Generally speaking, for games like Battletoads I pretty much hated it, continued hating it, and never stopped hating it, but eventually stopped playing it. And for stuff like TMNT and Contra, it was never really a point where I HATED it, more that I'd hit a point of difficulty but I was already invested enough in the game to want to beat it, so I eventually would, and thus continue. I never really altered my entire view of the game based on a moment of triumph or a sudden reinterpretation of how mechanics worked making things easier.

Even with hard games (and I used to play a lot - I still scoff when I talk to people who say Silver Surfer or 7th Saga were unbeatable because I beat both, and I played ET: The Extra-Terrestrial on the 2600), it was never really a case of the game as a whole not clicking or being something I just kind of hate, but then suddenly everything just drops into place and suddenly I'm seeing the code in the Matrix and getting an endorphin rush as I curbstomp everything. Usually it was a case where I would be into a game from the start, hone skills over time, and then maybe hit a hard section before popping past it.

Sure the dam level was shit, but it didn't make me hate the entire game, it just made me hate the dam level. And managing to develop the reflexes, muscle memory, and map awareness to get past it pretty consistently didn't magically make the entire rest of the game more enjoyable, it just made the dam less frustrating.

For a lot of games I didn't own (mostly ones I'd rent from the library for a week), if it was too hard or just no fun I'd eventually just return it and never think about it again.

The closest I really get to what you're describing might be playing games like Zelda II again 20 years later and managing to beat it in spite of never being able to beat it as a kid (I could never beat the shadow - playing as a drunk adult one night after a party at a friend's house I beat the shadow first try), but even that's not really a case of "getting" the game as a whole, or outright disliking it. I mostly played it as a kid BECAUSE I got 99.44% of the game, and enjoyed it. Which is the sole reason why I even bothered trying to play it again as an adult.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

You say this as a defender of the .hack// stupidity and it will forever vex me.

Hey now, these may be fighting words.

I mean if you're content to pay 4x over for a mediocre 20 hour rpg in the ps2 era, and then have the nerve in later generations to cry about gatchas and loot boxes, I cba to sympathize.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I mean if you're content to pay 4x over for a mediocre 20 hour rpg in the ps2 era, and then have the nerve in later generations to cry about gatchas and loot boxes, I cba to sympathize

I was willing to pay extra for what I considered the best RPG of the PS2 era, yes.

(And I say that even considering my gushing review of Suikoden V is one of the only two reviews I ever did for this site. I got way more out of .hack as a whole.)

In fact, it's a large part of what put the final nail into the Final Fantasy coffin for me - I got FFXII and GU//Rebirth at the same time, and tried playing XII before starting Rebirth. But FFXII was so soul-numbingly boring and my desire to play .hack kept getting stronger, so I eventually dropped XII about halfway through and never went back. To this day, it's the only FF game I ever started yet never finished. Even my ever-loathed FFVIII managed to coax me into hate-beating it out of spite. FFXII is also the last FF game I've ever played, because it broke the last vestiges of my loyalty to the franchise and I've never seen a reason to go back since. .hack's a large part of why I didn't just keep plodding through that paste-flavored game to the end solely out of habit.

GU was leagues better than the original, but both were pretty good, and they were even better if you actually watched Sign/Roots. I was deep down that well before Fragment/Link kind of ruined things.

My big plush Gruntie is still one of my prized stuffed animals, along with my plush Cthulhu.

But honestly, paying 4x (or 3x in the case of GU) is even kind of a misnomer, as most of the games dropped in price almost immediately after release anyway (I remember the first one being $10 almost right out of the gate just to encourage engagement), so you could easily get the entire set for less than the cost of most modern games. Definitely less than the average "Deluxe Edition".
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

WhiskeyDisk posted...

I mean if you're content to pay 4x over for a mediocre 20 hour rpg in the ps2 era, and then have the nerve in later generations to cry about gatchas and loot boxes, I cba to sympathize

I was willing to pay extra for what I considered the best RPG of the PS2 era, yes.

(And I say that even considering my gushing review of Suikoden V is one of the only two reviews I ever did for this site. I got way more out of .hack as a whole.)

In fact, it's a large part of what put the final nail into the Final Fantasy coffin for me - I got FFXII and GU//Rebirth at the same time, and tried playing XII before starting Rebirth. But FFXII was so soul-numbingly boring and my desire to play .hack kept getting stronger, so I eventually dropped XII about halfway through and never went back. To this day, it's the only FF game I ever started yet never finished. Even my ever-loathed FFVIII managed to coax me into hate-beating it out of spite. FFXII is also the last FF game I've ever played, because it broke the last vestiges of my loyalty to the franchise and I've never seen a reason to go back since. .hack's a large part of why I didn't just keep plodding through that paste-flavored game to the end solely out of habit.

GU was leagues better than the original, but both were pretty good, and they were even better if you actually watched Sign/Roots. I was deep down that well before Fragment/Link kind of ruined things.

My big plush Gruntie is still one of my prized stuffed animals, along with my plush Cthulhu.

But honestly, paying 4x (or 3x in the case of GU) is even kind of a misnomer, as most of the games dropped in price almost immediately after release anyway (I remember the first one being $10 almost right out of the gate just to encourage engagement), so you could easily get the entire set for less than the cost of most modern games. Definitely less than the average "Deluxe Edition".

I'd still put SMT DDS 1 & 2 up against .hack// buffoonery any day, or really any SMT game in a generation against it's .hack// contemporary any day of the week. The only argument you're going to get in hack's favor relies on the weab DVD half.

Even the Raidou Kuzunoha games were better than .hack overall.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Entity13 posted...

That is why I only played Xenosaga ep.III once, and the other parts twice. That is why I never returned to the pile of shit that called itself Wild Arms 4. I wish I had remembered all I disliked about FFXII before trying it a second time, because I could have saved myself the time, money, and copious aggravation with its many flaws. I could go on, but I suspect you get the picture.

You say this as a defender of the .hack// stupidity and it will forever vex me.

I played and enjoyed those games multiple times, even as I wrote guides for them for other people to use for completion's sake. Your personal lack of enjoyment in those games does not speak for everyone else, but I am grateful to the money I spent on them, which certainly wasn't full price for the first four games (though hunting for copies was a pain). Bamco should consider remastering the first four games.
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I mean, to each their own Ent, but $120 to play what amounts to a mediocre 60 hour rpg that was artificially split up into episodes in the PS2 era is the sort of thing that got us to the state of modern gaming we're in now...
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Not really, because any game I really dislike or have trouble with first time through isn't a game that's likely to get a second playthrough from me.

Like Steambot Chronicles for the PS2 with those horrible controls. I probably didn't even last 5 minutes.

Entity13 posted...

That is why I never returned to the pile of shit that called itself Wild Arms 4.

The rest of the game was decent but that battle system was just so bad.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

I'd still put SMT DDS 1 & 2 up against .hack// buffoonery any day

I wouldn't.

SMT is just one of those franchises that did absolutely nothing to appeal to me in any way, and always left me shaking my head whenever someone got down on their knees to fellate the hell out of it. And the Persona games are even worse - that franchise as a whole makes me cringe so hard I can feel my pelvis brushing up against my brain.

It's actually hard for me to say "X, Y, and Z are the reasons why I don't like it," because it always felt like everything was the problem for me (or, at least, nothing was appealing). But those games all definitely fall into the "This is way too fucking Japanese-y" vibe that kind of turned me off JRPGs in general. There are too many culturally-specific tropes that just don't connect with me on any level.

I hard nope out after reading the plot of any of those games. But with .hack, it had the advantage of coming at a time when the idea of a VR MMO was still both novel and generally unexplored (before Sword Art Online and basically did the exact same idea with less creativity yet somehow managed to be more popular at it), and when there was still interest in digital identity issues in the post-Matrix/Thirteenth Floor world, before the Matrix sequels came along and kind of squelched that appeal.



WhiskeyDisk posted...

The only argument you're going to get in hack's favor relies on the weab DVD half.

Ehh, if we're going to talk about weeb-ness, I'd argue that SMT/Persona is WAAAAAAAAAY more weeb wank material than .hack ever was (Persona especially).

But with .hack, it's not even the weeb-ness of it having an anime, as much as it is the idea of cross-media integration. Having a game with prequel animation of any kind (which allows you to connect to characters more), as well as books (again, ditto) allows you to sort of see the same story/world from different angles, which fleshes it out way more than any game alone really can. More so because a lot of the .hack material is deliberately exploring tangential stories. You don't NEED to know what's going on it .hack//Liminality to understand the main game, but it gives a new perspective if you do watch it. You don't NEED to know what Haseo was up to in .hack//Roots to appreciate what he's doing in GU, but it gives you an entirely new perspective on him as a character (and even more so if you realize, from the supplementary material, that he's the same person who played Sora in the original games).

To reference the Matrix again, it was like how Final Flight of the Osiris and Enter the Matrix (the plot of which I loved, even if the game itself was kind of meh and somewhat buggy) recontextualize events in Reloaded. They're not NECESSARY, but they flavor things in interesting new ways if you're willing to make the investment to appreciate them. Sure, it was a marketing ploy, but it was also incredibly interesting artistically and aesthetically, and it's kind of a shame it didn't become more of a thing. But that was likely inevitable, because it will always take longer to develop a good game than it does a good movie.

I'd say that kind of storytelling structure was also an early strength of the Halo series (maybe the first six novels or so), until 343 went all-in on the idea of tie-in novels and made them almost a requirement to understand or care about stuff in the new games (which, combined with the new games being kind of crap, led me to stop caring about the games, the books, and the franchise in general). Fall of Reach alone does FAR more to flesh out that universe than any of the first four games (ie, the Bungie ones). Reading the books absolutely makes the games better as a whole.
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Even the Raidou Kuzunoha games were better than .hack overall.

Again, I'd disagree, but that's because we're back to the problem that I don't give one iota of a shit for that entire franchise.

If you're going to try and argue .hack down in my eyes by presenting RPG franchises that are actually "better", you'd have to put it up against games I actually consider worth playing. The aforementioned Suikoden V fits the mold, but kind of falls down because III was a little wonky, and IV and Tactics pull the franchise average as a whole way down. Final Fantasy could have been a contender, except that stalls out after FFX for me, and never recovers (and had already stumbled with FFVIII, exposing its feet of clay). Dragon Quest could throw its hat into the ring, but as far as I'm concerned that pretty much peaked with DWIII (no matter how much the Japanese may love it).

I'd even accept Kingdom Hearts as a possibility, because I and II were very strong games. But that franchise shot itself in the foot by (ironically) doing something similar to what I've been praising .hack for - releasing so many side games that it drowned all of the elements of the series that was actually appealing in the first place. Though in KH's case, it's also breaking the same rules that I complained about for Halo post-KHII - making the supplementary material mandatory more than optional, and falling into the trap of being WAAAY too "Japanese-y" (at least with the non-Disney characters).



WhiskeyDisk posted...

I mean, to each their own Ent, but $120 to play what amounts to a mediocre 60 hour rpg that was artificially split up into episodes in the PS2 era is the sort of thing that got us to the state of modern gaming we're in now...

HARD, hard disagree. .hack really wasn't an inspiration for publisher fuckery that followed. If anything, the fact that no one else really followed the same model argues the exact opposite.

If we're going to be honest with ourselves, PC gaming was the bad influence when it comes to fuckery, and the trend for consoles to try and be like big brother PC (which I said at the time was going to come back to bite all of us on the ass) is what opened the door to constant post-release dickings. DLC in general was more an outgrowth of expansion packs as a concept (which absolutely predated .hack), and microtransactions evolved along completely different lines (and mostly stemmed from the ease of always on connectivity and post-launch patching fusing with the idea of in-game cheats). We didn't jump directly from .hack to horse armor in Oblivion.

But in its own time, I'd argue it wasn't as bad as you're implying it was even then. Just in terms of the games alone, I'd say a pure numerical breakdown of time spent/price, I wound up spending somewhere between $1.50-$2 an hour (closer to $1 per hour with GU) - which is better than a LOT of other games I've played over the years (including a lot of earlier RPGs). And that's just assuming a single playthrough (which is NOT how I play RPGs, at all). But that's skewed even more when you realize the original games each came with a DVD that had Liminality included, so you weren't just paying for the game alone (and yes, I acknowledge for some people having a packed in anime DVD is more of a minus than a plus. But if we're talking objective cost/value, it's still a factor).

Because of how it was handled, I find it easy to see it more as an experiment in cross-media storytelling than just a cynical marketing ploy. In the same way that ARGs were a popular thing for a while, or how some games would have in-universe web sites (or how older Japanese games would have art books to tell expanded stories),
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Also, before we go deeper down this rabbit hole, it's probably worth clarifying my #1 rule of RPGs:

"I don't give a single shit about the mechanics."

I don't care about complexity of stat interactions or skill bonuses. I don't care about optimal builds or having to specialize a character in specific ways to succeed. I don't care how robust the gameplay is. What I want from an RPG is story, characters, and some form of emotional and/or intellectual fulfillment. The gameplay mechanics are nothing more than the tool used to deliver the narrative.

Bad gameplay can hurt a game (the main reason why I loathe Morrowind as much as I do), but good gameplay blends into the background and allows me to mostly ignore it while I'm busy talking to NPCs and having adventures. On the other hand, a game with a mediocre story (FFXII) or terrible story (FFVIII) is going to turn me off faster than anything, no matter what the gameplay is like.

So if I'm comparing RPGs, I'm never going to put the game with the most robust mechanics ever developed above the game with a great story. Which shapes a lot of how I view games in general.
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Oh, one other thing that just came to mind:

WhiskeyDisk posted...

a mediocre 60 hour rpg that was artificially split up into episodes in the PS2 era

It's kind of worth noting that each of the games was about a 20-hour game when I played them (almost exactly 20 hours, which is why I was amused enough to take note of it and still remember it years later). So as far as I'm concerned, it was an 80-hour RPG.

(Sure, you can probably rush through them in 15 hours or less each, but if so that's more on you than it is on the game. Some people can beat games like Fallout: New Vegas or Skyrim in about an hour if they want to, but that doesn't stop me from spending hundreds of hours in them.)

In comparison, KotOR (one of .hack's rough contemporaries) took about 20 hours to beat as a stand-alone game, and very few people complained that it wasn't long enough for the price. It told the story it wanted to tell in the time it needed to tell it, without any artificial grind or padding extending the playtime (*cough*Dragon Age: Inquisition*cough*) out of a sense that playtime as an objective measure is somehow more important than subjective quality of time.

KotOR (and Jade Empire later) alone was about as long as each individual .hack game (and that's just the original games - the GU games were closer to 30 hours each if I remember correctly). So even if the STORY was split across four games (or three games for GU), it's harder to say that any individual game felt like it shortchanged you as a player (at least in terms of time spent playing).

The idea that every RPG needs to be a 120+ hour slogfest or it's garbage is something that slowly evolved over time (and was something that was brought up as a discussion point for the Xenosaga games, if I remember correctly), and it's harder to hold older games to the same standard we hold modern games. I don't feel like Zelda II is less of a game because you can feasibly beat it in a single night even in Breath of the Wild has convinced some people that the best Zelda game is one that takes people 50+ hours to beat.

And while I can't speak to the exact technical requirements of the games (because I'm not and have never been a tech nerd who cares about that sort of thing), I'm not entirely sure if you COULD fit an 80-hour game with lots of in-engine cut scenes and full voice acting with mostly procedural maps/dungeons into a single disc (Final Fantasy VII couldn't do it a generation prior, and the Mass Effect games couldn't even do it a generation later). So it's possible the only reason they were breaking the games up in the first place was because they weren't going to be able to get them all onto a single disc, and decided if it was going to be a multi-disc release anyway, it might be interesting to release them separately (with added content). It would definitely be interesting to know just how much data each game was carrying around.

Though even if the games as a whole COULD have been fit on a single disc (or just a collection of discs released as a single product), it doesn't really change the fact that each individual game was still more or less comparable with the amount of content of other games of the same era, and even included recaps of prior games and mechanics for jumping in late even if you'd never played earlier games. So in theory a player who bought one and one alone wasn't necessarily getting 1/4th of a game.

In some ways, it felt like a cross between one game broken into four pieces and four separate sequels made in the same engine, telling an overarching story but still allowing for introduction/action/resolution in each part (similar to the Star Wars trilogy). Not quite either, but a little of both.

Again, a design like that rests heavily on getting the player invested in the setting, characters, and story - which I think .hack does.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

If anything, the fact that no one else really followed the same model argues the exact opposite.

Xenosaga came out before the first .hack game.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Some people can beat games like Fallout: New Vegas or Skyrim in about an hour if they want to

Using the console doesn't count.
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Revelation34 posted...

Xenosaga came out before the first .hack game.

That's not even really the same thing. It wasn't a game with an overarching start/middle/finish split into pieces as much as it was one story that was planned to be successive sequels that kept growing more and more bloated as it went until everyone stopped caring.

A better example might be the "episodic" games that came later like everything Telltale did or Dreamfall Chapters, but those generally wound up costing less as a whole than they would have as a single game anyway (ie, most of the Telltale games were 5 chapters each, each one cost $5, you could generally buy the full season pass in advance for $20, etc), so it's not really the same thing (those are more a case of desperately trying to get new content out while you're still working on it than something that was likely mostly finished and then split into pieces).



Revelation34 posted...

Using the console doesn't count.

You can speedrun them without direct cheats.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

(with added content).

Not sure if I'd call a new skill that you basically use once for story reasons on each disc "added content".
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WhiskeyDisk posted...

Not sure if I'd call a new skill that you basically use once for story reasons on each disc "added content".

I was referring to the episodes of Liminality that came with the game.

Again, you might not care about it at all, but it's still an anime that's being animated and DVDs being pressed for every single copy of the game sold. Which is absolutely part of the price you're paying for the game.

And it's the idea of "Hey, let's have these alternate means of storytelling" as part of the deal that makes me feel like it was more of a creative decision than a financial one (or at least not JUST a financial one). It feels less like a blatant cash grab (in the way horse armor or loot boxes are) than it does experimenting with the medium.

Especially since a large part of the plot of the story IS about how one medium can influence another, and different aspects of "creation" as a whole. It kind of underlines a thematic justification.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

Revelation34 posted...

Xenosaga came out before the first .hack game.

That's not even really the same thing. It wasn't a game with an overarching start/middle/finish split into pieces as much as it was one story that was planned to be successive sequels that kept growing more and more bloated as it went until everyone stopped caring.

A better example might be the "episodic" games that came later like everything Telltale did or Dreamfall Chapters, but those generally wound up costing less as a whole than they would have as a single game anyway (ie, most of the Telltale games were 5 chapters each, each one cost $5, you could generally buy the full season pass in advance for $20, etc), so it's not really the same thing (those are more a case of desperately trying to get new content out while you're still working on it than something that was likely mostly finished and then split into pieces).

Revelation34 posted...

Using the console doesn't count.

You can speedrun them without direct cheats.

Life is Strange 2 is pretty expensive for all episodes. Also how can you speed run it without cheating?
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ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's a now problem that's been "now" for nigh on 25-30 years.

Well, I can't say that I was doing as much streaming tv shows, movies, etc, in 1989. The way that I consume entertainment has had a very direct effect on my consumption habits. However, that's really changed as the technology has and has likely even had a bigger impact than lifestyle changes as I got older.

And while internet piracy may have gone mainstream with services like Napster and Limewire, even that was relatively limited compared to everything we have now (doubly so since connection speeds, file sizes, etc, posed issues whereas you can just stream stuff).

It wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I started to feel paralyzed by the number of choices to the extent that I frequently wound up doing nothing. Plus, in general, content has been increasing exponentially with time and, thanks to things like Wikipedia, it's a lot easier to stumble on things you didn't know existed. There may be hundreds of years of content already in existence, but even during the 1990s awareness of titles was far more limited since your primary sources would have been things like magazines and newspapers which more covered upcoming films and books.
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Zeus posted...

Well, I can't say that I was doing as much streaming tv shows, movies, etc, in 1989.

I feel like the media boom started long before streaming, and has only continued to incrementally grow and grow ever since.

I think the turning point is around the time when cable systems went from having 36 channels tops to having hundreds of channels and multiple PPV options. Combined with Blockbuster making VHS/DVD rental super-easy around the same time, there was suddenly a glut of options for anyone looking to consume media in general (and that's before we get into libraries with books, videos, music, and other media options).

Only a few years later, the Internet boom started, introducing an entirely new wrinkle. Web sites, message boards, and chat rooms are all technically forms of media, even if we tend not to think of them that way. The Internet also started making other forms of media easier to access if you knew where and how to look (the trend started with music downloads, but books and movies weren't that far behind for pirated downloads).

By the time streaming services became a significant thing (both in terms of things like Netflix, online video hosting like YouTube, or even cable companies offering On Demand channels and content), media was already a bloated monstrosity. Streaming just magnified a problem that was already growing out of control.

Now we're in another phase - where the ease and availability of streaming is encouraging new content platforms (like Disney+), which in turn is spurring new content production (because you need content to put on those new platforms). Now we're drowning in content, and it's pretty much impossible for any given human to ever experience even a fraction of the content coming out at any given point. Hell, YouTube alone uploads more content in a few minutes than the average human can view in their entire lifetime.

This is why I tend to make my argument that "pop culture" may not be a thing in the future, at least not in the same way it has been in the past. Most boys (in the US anyway) around my age watched Transformers and GI Joe, and have it as a common reference point as an adult (say "And now I know!" near an adult male in their mid-40s and watch what happens). But kids in the modern era are going to have so many possible choices for what to watch that they're going to lack a lot of that shared pop culture reference point.

At best we might have something akin to "meme culture", or games like Fortnite might take the place of what TV and movies used to, but it's possible in the future kids with grow up with such radically different memories of what they experienced via media that they can't really use it as a meaningful point in common with anyone other than their immediate circle of friends.

Hell, I'm starting to have trouble relating to my adult friends at this point - a lot of of media consumption is through games and Internet, while some of them mostly watch Netflix, and a couple mainly stick to Amazon Prime (and even my GF tends to watch stuff on cable TV more than I do). Even online, people disperse between Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit, and there's a divide between YouTube and Twitch (even beyond which channels and users you're paying attention to on each). There may come a day when you meet someone and have literally never watched a single shared thing at any point in your entire life.

Then we'll all have to go back to talking about the weather for small talk.
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Zeus posted...

ParanoidObsessive posted...

It's a now problem that's been "now" for nigh on 25-30 years.

Well, I can't say that I was doing as much streaming tv shows, movies, etc, in 1989. The way that I consume entertainment has had a very direct effect on my consumption habits. However, that's really changed as the technology has and has likely even had a bigger impact than lifestyle changes as I got older.

And while internet piracy may have gone mainstream with services like Napster and Limewire, even that was relatively limited compared to everything we have now (doubly so since connection speeds, file sizes, etc, posed issues whereas you can just stream stuff).

It wasn't until the last 5 years or so that I started to feel paralyzed by the number of choices to the extent that I frequently wound up doing nothing. Plus, in general, content has been increasing exponentially with time and, thanks to things like Wikipedia, it's a lot easier to stumble on things you didn't know existed. There may be hundreds of years of content already in existence, but even during the 1990s awareness of titles was far more limited since your primary sources would have been things like magazines and newspapers which more covered upcoming films and books.

It wasn't that hard to pirate even back then since making copies of a VHS was technically piracy. Also piracy is less convenient than say something like Steam existing where you can just have fast access to games and cloud saves.
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...okay, apparently I can hold block down longer than I thought which means that the Great Tiger portion of Remix II Challenge 25 is much easier than I thought (although I guess my timing might have also improved from failing all of those Superpunch Joe encounters). I imagine I'll get through the rest without much trouble.

I *think* that's the last of the actual challenges I have left. I watched a guide for Dr. Mario #6 and the solution likely wouldn't have occurred to me for quite some time.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

I feel like the media boom started long before streaming, and has only continued to incrementally grow and grow ever since.

The boom may have started sooner, but access to media exploded with peer-to-peer and streaming. In the 90s or even early 00s, if I wasn't around to tape a show on a VCR, I might never get the chance to watch that show again (since many things didn't wind up getting home releases). Today I can find absurdly obscure titles right on YT.

Yes, a massive amount of content was coming out and, thanks to the video rental market, there was some access to titles, but we'd never lived in age when we had *this* level of access which is what I was driving at. In the past, you might have had choices of what to watch on TV, but it was to the point where you had to choose between watching things at certain times. Now you can literally watch anything whenever and that lack of time sensitivity means I often wind up watching less than I used to.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

This is why I tend to make my argument that "pop culture" may not be a thing in the future, at least not in the same way it has been in the past. Most boys (in the US anyway) around my age watched Transformers and GI Joe, and have it as a common reference point as an adult (say "And now I know!" near an adult male in their mid-40s and watch what happens). But kids in the modern era are going to have so many possible choices for what to watch that they're going to lack a lot of that shared pop culture reference point.

The big things are still huge. I will concede that there is *one* substantial difference in that the time-frame during which something is popular tends to be shrinking so even though you might have massive guy-in from an age group one year, kids just a few years younger may have moved onto something else entirely. That said, you have a few major franchises like Pokemon which have remained relevant for decades so there will always be some common threads.

Revelation34 posted...

It wasn't that hard to pirate even back then since making copies of a VHS was technically piracy.

Piracy was very hard because you'd need to find people to borrow/trade tapes with. I'm not sure if you've ever been into anime, but anime VHS tapes in the 90s were a fucking nightmare. Then peer-to-peer came along and there was massive access no matter where you lived. And now you have countless legal streaming options, too.

Revelation34 posted...

Also piracy is less convenient than say something like Steam existing where you can just have fast access to games and cloud saves.

Well, things may change as we get an influx of dedicated streaming sites. For gaming, I'm not sure if Steam will have any serious competition for a while.
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Piracy was very hard because you'd need to find people to borrow/trade tapes with. I'm not sure if you've ever been into anime, but anime VHS tapes in the 90s were a f***ing nightmare. Then peer-to-peer came along and there was massive access no matter where you lived. And now you have countless legal streaming options, too.

Well there were video rental stores like Blockbuster, but yeah anime tapes were hard to find because it wasn't popular until the mid-90s.

Well, things may change as we get an influx of dedicated streaming sites. For gaming, I'm not sure if Steam will have any serious competition for a while.

The Epic Lame Store

As a random aside, all this talk of infinite choices in media to consume makes me think of Johnny5 from Short Circuit and his "INPUT!" addiction.

There's a sequel/remake/reboot in there somewhere where Johnny5 struggles with his storage space when he jacks into the internet and actually suffers from total sensory overload.

Of course in this day and age, we'd have to do something about Fisher Stevens' character because brownface would never fly, but there's something there.
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I still have several of my VHS tapes from the Age of Fansubs. Good times created by good people (because subtitling, speaking from a little experience, is enough of a pain in the all-digital era that I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been in those days), though I do not miss the availability issues.

And I want to jump into the JRPG discussion from several posts up, since that's my wheelhouse, but, er, I'm not sure I can completely engage on that one. Most of the games I love from the eras described are games that P.O. absolutely hates.

I can offer a memory, though: I picked up .hack//SIGN and Xenosaga Episode I (plus Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter) on the same day back in '03 (February, IIRC). One of my prouder moments as a collector. It was one of my last paychecks from my university job before I graduated and moved back to this city. I remember having to wrap the games up in my scarf to keep them warm for the bus ride back to the dorm.

Finding JRPGs felt like more of an achievement back then, both because of rarity and because there were more stores than just Game Stop. E-Bay was also much more of a jungle than it is now. In the beginning, I could not use Pay Pal, so I had to hike to the local Kroger for money orders early in the morning so I could mail them off. (My first E-Bay purchase was a memory cartridge for my Sega CD so that I could get the extra scenarios in Shining Force CD.)

Eh, not really going anywhere with that. Just felt like sharing.
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Zeus posted...

Piracy was very hard because you'd need to find people to borrow/trade tapes with. I'm not sure if you've ever been into anime, but anime VHS tapes in the 90s were a fucking nightmare. Then peer-to-peer came along and there was massive access no matter where you lived. And now you have countless legal streaming options, too.

I didn't mean just for anime though. I think back then I watched stuff that was anime and didn't know what anime was. Like the original Dragonball that I caught a few episodes of.

Zeus posted...

Well, things may change as we get an influx of dedicated streaming sites. For gaming, I'm not sure if Steam will have any serious competition for a while.

Epic Store is trash so that will never happen.

I_Abibde posted...

I still have several of my VHS tapes from the Age of Fansubs. Good times created by good people (because subtitling, speaking from a little experience, is enough of a pain in the all-digital era that I cannot imagine how difficult it must have been in those days), though I do not miss the availability issues.

And I want to jump into the JRPG discussion from several posts up, since that's my wheelhouse, but, er, I'm not sure I can completely engage on that one. Most of the games I love from the eras described are games that P.O. absolutely hates.

I can offer a memory, though: I picked up .hack//SIGN and Xenosaga Episode I (plus Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter) on the same day back in '03 (February, IIRC). One of my prouder moments as a collector. It was one of my last paychecks from my university job before I graduated and moved back to this city. I remember having to wrap the games up in my scarf to keep them warm for the bus ride back to the dorm.

Finding JRPGs felt like more of an achievement back then, both because of rarity and because there were more stores than just Game Stop. E-Bay was also much more of a jungle than it is now. In the beginning, I could not use Pay Pal, so I had to hike to the local Kroger for money orders early in the morning so I could mail them off. (My first E-Bay purchase was a memory cartridge for my Sega CD so that I could get the extra scenarios in Shining Force CD.)

Eh, not really going anywhere with that. Just felt like sharing.

Walmart usually had the games I wanted even JRPGs in 03. I remember before they were bought out by GameStop that Babbages was how I got hard to find PS1 games like Suikoden 1 and Breath of Fire 3 still factory sealed around the same time period. Other than that I had to go to Best Buy for harder to find modern games. It was the only place that had Suikoden 3.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIgykByoZwI

There are times when I absolutely love Jim Sterling.
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