Lurker > Lopen

Hbthebattle posted...

but one case does not make a good game

Hard disagree. The series has always been about the highs.

I think what helps it a lot is the two bad cases aren't back to back too.

If Apollo Justice didn't exist I almost certainly would have played games after Edgeworth 1 so I am inclined to agree it would be better

the Sexes

paulg235 posted...

The games DO get better after Apollo Justice and Investigations 1, but I don't fault anyone for giving up on the series after going through both games.

I did get through Investigations 1-- it wasn't that bad just (very, as a huge Edgeworth fan) disappointing.

I should actually probably read what happened at some point because I know that one is supposed to be bad too

Part of me holds out hope I'll actually go back and play AJ/Edgeworth 2 and the other PW Games after those so I don't want to quite submit to that, though slogging through the end of AJ might kill such a project before it got off the ground (and the later games are actually good right?)

1.5

Less bad than 4-2 because of lack of panties jokes. The 1 2 punch of these two back to back was rough. Can't actually rate the rest of Apollo Justice because I couldn't continue.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/1/1bfc1232.jpg

Loving the reverted Angela. Just using a straight Hit Monkey deck with her + Elsa + Bishop + Hope + Kitty. Don't even need Sera just dump everything anyway cause this deck type is so strong with Hope. Hitting massive power with no real bounce elements aside from Kitty.

I think Kratos is the Sony icon mostly through consistency and longevity and I don't really think God of War 1 deserves any particular note for it. I'd probably put it on a PS4 Rushmore.

Lopen posted...

Devil May Cry 3

This was my Spiderman 2 seeing God of War getting votes but this is a "Final Fantasy vs Dragon Quest" situation where neither should be here

Replace Devil May Cry 3 with Gran Turismo 3

Honestly multiplatform is a reason to side with GTA3. GTA3 was a PS2 game way before other platforms. Xbox in particular was released like 2 years later.

I'm with GTA3 pretty firmly for rushmore

San Andreas really refined the formula but to me it was mostly there in GTA3 and the only reason San Andreas sold more was because of later console life console bundling and GTA3 and Vice City both delivering and establishing the franchise as something people wanted. To me it's not really a SMB vs SMB3 or Sonic vs Sonic 2 situation

Metal Gear Solid 2
Final Fantasy X
Grand Theft Auto 3
Devil May Cry 3

While it's true the original AD&D monster manual mimic doesn't have visible teeth, it is chest that attacks you. The 2e Mimic in the Monstrous Manual clearly does have teeth, though it did come out in 1993.

(1e monster manual art in this wiki page)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimic_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)

It is possible but are we sure the artist of the monstrous manual knew of Dragon Quest 3, or is it another example of "first doesn't necessarily mean anything cause it would have happened/was implied anyway"

Interesting trivia either way though

Kinglicious posted...

The influence really does go back further but the one who makes a complete package first deserves credit for that, especially when it's a success

I definitely agree with this Im just not sure FF1 was far enough off the mark that DQ3 deserves a wealth of recognition for it as some sort of big step

I guess you can use that AND the Japan cultural impact as a combination and yeah maybe justify putting the thing as #4. Maybe.

The best RPG rep on SNES is Mario RPG probably

But I'd probably give FF4 the nod over CT

Lopen posted...

Super Mario Bros
Mega Man 2
Super Mario Bros 3
Mike Tyson's Punch Out!!

Change Mega Man 2 to Legend of Zelda

Leonhart4 posted...

"Somebody would've invented it later anyway" isn't a viable counterargument

It absolutely is if the invention isn't actually that inventive. You're basically just giving more freedom of timing and choice to the framework that already exists. FF1 already had class change mechanics built into it it just didn't let you do it freely.

I have Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! on my list and no RPGs and stand by that so my horse is no horse I'm just saying if I had a horse I'd probably pick FF1

Hbthebattle posted...

DQ3 is the first game to have Classes be what JRPGs use them as today - skillsets where you can swap in and out of them, building your own ideal team. Notably, all of the class based FF games like 3 or 5 are using this system, rather than FF1's, which is really just picking 4 characters at the start of the game but not being able to change them on the fly or influence their growth.

Honest question do you think this wouldn't come naturally without Dragon Quest though.

I realize it's notable to be the first but it's also an extremely logical progression of the class system

It's like saying platformers would never use multiple power ups without SMB3 because we'd just stick with Fire Flower all day

Hbthebattle posted...

In terms of influence on its genre DQ3 is more important to the development of JPRGs than SMB3 was to the development of platformers. Full stop. SMB3 is probably the more popular game overall, obviously, but in terms of genre importance, there were a lot of platformers on the NES, including SMB1 and 2 different SMB2s.

What did Dragon Quest 3 introduce that FF1 had not already

For the record I think Dragon Quest is a poor rep because it's so barebones it scarcely resembles the current jRPG genre any more than stuff like Ultima and Wizardry but I can at least see where people are coming from with "first"

Final Fantasy is probably my RPG vote from the NES due to it saving Square but I'm honestly leaning just not having any RPG reps from the NES because honestly it just didn't matter enough back then and much like I think rock exists without The Who or The Rolling Stones I think RPGs exist without Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest 3.

I just think if you're comparing DQ3 to SMB3 or FF7 you're just warning me your argument needs to be taken with a lot of salt. That's all. It has nothing to do with "only popular in Japan" and more to do with "please realize analogies cease to be useful if the scope for your comparison is completely wrong"

Like I don't actually know if it's right to consider it here or not but I do know its importance is being inflated by at least some people voting it by having the audacity to compare it to those other games which were orders of magnitude bigger.

It's definitely not more grounded. May actually be less than PW games on the whole somehow despite channeling ghosts not being a widely accepted element in the cases.

And believe me I like (relatively) grounded. 1-5 and 2-4 are probably the least ridiculous cases in the early series and they're my two favorites.

The Dragon Quest 3 discussion feels like when people try to give some random artist from the 60s credit for creating rock forgetting that a lot of pieces were in place around that given artist.

I'm not saying it had no importance at all but I'm skeptical it was super important for console rpgs to exist. Normally I'd just say "well must be a Japan thing" but we got people comparing it to FF7 or SMB3 in this topic and I know that isn't right.

Mythiot posted...

Basically the equivalent of Boba Fett getting launched into the Sarlacc pit by dumb luck.

They're not really this at all. They're used to put Hank over and succeed at that.

It'd be more like if during the Hank thing an old woman who could hardly see hit them with a car and Hank was like "hoo boy that was close" and then recommends she go to the DMV to get her eyes checked.

This case has an abundance of extremely annoying characters and gags and drags. Panties should never be in a game I'm playing, sorry, you're too Japanese.

I honestly don't understand how anyone can think this case and Big Top are vastly different in terms of quality. They're basically guilty of the same stuff and it's just a matter of how much each annoyed you.

I don't understand how Dragon Quest 3 was particularly influential. It was a good game but yeah. Maybe I had to be in Japan or more aware of the path of the franchise to get it? Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest seem like the better includes to me?

Slug

Sonic 3 & Knuckles was robbed by people voting its components

1/10

Basically killed this game for me. It actually makes me think I needed to make Big Top 1.5

Super Mario Bros
Mega Man 2
Super Mario Bros 3
Mike Tyson's Punch Out!!

Lopen posted...

Remove Aladdin
Add Phantasy Star IV

Remove Phantasy Star IV
Add Sonic 2

Sabretooth could be a 3/6 and not be used. He's just awkward to fit into the destroy curve.

Crossbones seems super good now

Sackboy at #5 is weird but at least he fits a bare minimum definition of iconic. Like if he was at #15 or something I wouldn't think anything of it

Remove Aladdin
Add Phantasy Star IV

Mega Man 1 feels like the perfect comparison to me yeah. And I wouldn't put Mega Man 1 on an NES Rushmore or even a Mega Man Rushmore. (Sonic game rushmore would be like Sonic 2, S3&K, SA2 Battle and some other newer game)

Definitely agree Sonic 1 shouldn't be on it

Feels like Sonic 1 is more like a retrospective inclusion. It just didn't matter at the time significantly more than other early games-- SMB1 it was not-- and it wasn't at all clear Sonic would be the mega franchise it became until Sonic 2

Rumble

Honestly

Agent 47 at 3 or Shadowheart, Arthur Morgan, and Astarion being on the list at all is probably more offensive than Lara at 1

Blood Kode is pretty much the only reason I put MK on here

I associate it heavily with Sega Genesis and was a big moment for the Genesis being the "cool" system to have.

Incidentally Aladdin having the sword also. But I probably should just put Sonic 2 over it.

I'm just now learning there is hype to this case.

Are the votes with Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles using lock on technology to achieve Sonic 3 & Knuckles

5.5

Didn't get me excited to play the game but good enough intro to a bunch of characters and stuff. I was into this well enough.

Zemo seems OP too. He's basically a 3/7 in the worst case (ok I guess technically could summon Wasp or Yellowjacket for 3/6). Can do much better too.

I think he'll get nerfed but it won't he as quick because it's not as obvious how strong he is.

Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Altered Beast
Mortal Kombat
Aladdin

I think Red Hulk probably gets nerfed to +3 and maybe even 6/10 +3 at some point. Definitely seems a bit overtuned atm (shocker!)

First time or two I clicked on most recent post and it went to like 5 off from the most recent post and I was like "wow lot of posts from people who have me blocked"

So yeah the planet's dying cloud

Probably nothing but if I remember to do something or ask then start a contest.

Maniac64 posted...

Taker is spooky Goldberg.

I'm pretty close to agreeing with this. I think Undertaker is a bit better in ring characters out of the equation but it's a decent comparison

I would say Goldberg is definitely at least slightly good in the ring in the sense that you want to watch his stuff cause his character makes it fun, which is basically what Taker is at his core.

You can't do that Goldberg / Brock match with just anyone.