How can anyone learn chinese alphabets?

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Current Events » How can anyone learn chinese alphabets?
There's like thousands of them.
:D
By memory.
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St0rmFury posted...
By memory.
Impossible
:D
They write them over and over again from the time they are able to write.
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_____Cait posted...
They write them over and over again from the time they are able to write.
On their smartphones?
:D
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DB_Insider posted...
On their smartphones?

Yeah buddy you got it
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It's not an alphabet. They're logographs and the vast majority of phonosemantic compounds. There are repeating elements combined in predictable ways that make memorization easier than if you have to learn thousands of truly unique characters. Additionally you actually don't read words you know letter by letter, so reading even in English is actually more complex than it appears.

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ssjevot posted...
It's not an alphabet. They're logographs and the vast majority of phonosemantic compounds. There are repeating elements combined in predictable ways that make memorization easier than if you have to learn thousands of truly unique characters. Additionally you actually don't read words you know letter by letter, so reading even in English is actually more complex than it appears.
0.0
_____Cait posted...
Yeah buddy you got it
But I like brush better

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:D
The Latin alphabet should be universal by now. The only Asian countries that use it are the ones that were colonized. I think a couple may be transitioning.
Ironically enough, if you ask a native Chinese person who's learning english what language is harder to learn they'll most likely say english is harder to remember
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MarshMellow posted...
The Latin alphabet should be universal by now. The only Asian countries that use it are the ones that were colonized. I think a couple may be transitioning.

Lol they will never. Japan is so stubborn and refuses to learn English in any meaningful way.
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crayola555 posted...
Ironically enough, if you ask a native Chinese person who's learning english what language is harder to learn they'll most likely say english is harder to remember
I don't trust them lol
:D
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_____Cait posted...
TC is pretending to be cooked, just ignore
Can't complain about the meal, DON'T LEAVE!
:D
It just baffles me that the Japanese will spend like 20 years learning all kanji ever while they've already had hiragana and katakana for centuries, and while the Koreans have had an alphabet for 500 years or so that can literally be learned in about an hour. Koreans learn a few hanja characters but there's like 10 of them and it's like using a dollar sign or a # for them.
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sfcalimari posted...
It just baffles me that the Japanese will spend like 20 years learning all kanji ever while they've already had hiragana and katakana for centuries, and while the Koreans have had an alphabet for 500 years or so that can literally be learned in about an hour. Koreans learn a few hanja characters but there's like 10 of them and it's like using a dollar sign or a # for them.
20 years learning kanji?! Yo special reading coming through!
:D
It's more like learning vocabulary than learning an alphabet. And it's really not that bad.
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sfcalimari posted...
It just baffles me that the Japanese will spend like 20 years learning all kanji ever while they've already had hiragana and katakana for centuries, and while the Koreans have had an alphabet for 500 years or so that can literally be learned in about an hour. Koreans learn a few hanja characters but there's like 10 of them and it's like using a dollar sign or a # for them.

Kanji and Hiragana are read completely differently. Katakana is for foreign words.
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It probably helps if you are born into a culture that uses those characters and you are immersed in it your entire life. Very different experience than we would have as outsiders attempting to learn it
_____Cait posted...
Kanji and Hiragana are read completely differently.

Not sure what you mean, both are used for Japanese words right? Why are some words in kanji but not others, are certain words always only written in kanji and others are only written in hiragana? I assume hiragana could be used for all Japanese words but they just don't because reasons.

Using ideograms in Korean (or English) would be weird because there's so many short words thrown into a sentence that don't really mean big concepts like a noun or a verb, but are stuff like "since" or "but" that probably wouldn't get their own ideogram. And obviously words exist like that in Chinese and Japanese. But when you're traveling and see a Chinese script next to the Japanese kanji version they're nearly 100% the same. Obviously read differently but it seems like they're written with the same grammar and word order.
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sfcalimari posted...
It just baffles me that the Japanese will spend like 20 years learning all kanji ever while they've already had hiragana and katakana for centuries, and while the Koreans have had an alphabet for 500 years or so that can literally be learned in about an hour. Koreans learn a few hanja characters but there's like 10 of them and it's like using a dollar sign or a # for them.

Already got a lot of this post covered, but literally no one knows all kanji ever. Most Japanese knows 2000-3000. Less than 1% of people could pass the highest level kanji aptitude test and that only covers 6500 kanji, far from every kanji ever (at least 85,000, probably many more).
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Kanji originally was just stolen Chinese characters. Originally Japan had no written language. They got it from China. The Kanji characters are the oldest of Japanese writing. Hiragana came many centuries later. And then eventually they invented katakana. Anyway, that's why Kanji is so similar to Chinese writing
sfcalimari posted...
Not sure what you mean, both are used for Japanese words right? Why are some words in kanji but not others, are certain words always only written in kanji and others are only written in hiragana? I assume hiragana could be used for all Japanese words but they just don't because reasons.

Using ideograms in Korean (or English) would be weird because there's so many short words thrown into a sentence that don't really mean big concepts like a noun or a verb, but are stuff like "since" or "but" that probably wouldn't get their own ideogram. And obviously words exist like that in Chinese and Japanese. But when you're traveling and see a Chinese script next to the Japanese kanji version they're nearly 100% the same. Obviously read differently but it seems like they're written with the same grammar and word order.

Katakana is usually used for Japanese words loaned from other languages other than classical Chinese (which would use kanji). Hiragana is used for grammatical elements of sentences (though many of these have and sometimes do use kanji) and some nouns and verbs. Kanji are used for most noun and verb stems (ignoring conjugation). I am ignoring adjectives because technically Japanese doesn't have them (it has nouns and verbs that can function like adjectives). Japanese grammar is nothing like Chinese, but is largely identical to Korean (if it weren't for nationalists in born countries they would likely be considered to be descended from the same language in the distant past).
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_____Cait posted...
Lol they will never. Japan is so stubborn and refuses to learn English in any meaningful way.

English is mandatory in many Japanese schools from like 3rd grade until graduation and have tv programs for it etc.
i dunno how well the education is but outright "refusing" it is a lie. most younger Japanese at least know the basics

Also, most Kanji you need to know, road signs etc., have hiragana/katakana/english underneath it
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Zikten posted...
Kanji originally was just stolen Chinese characters. Originally Japan had no written language. They got it from China. The Kanji characters are the oldest of Japanese writing. Hiragana came many centuries later. And then eventually they invented katakana. Anyway, that's why Kanji is so similar to Chinese writing

They weren't stolen. The learned people of Japan, as with other countries surrounding China, learned classical Chinese to read and write (just like Europeans learned Latin). Later on these countries developed their own forms of writing often making use of Chinese characters, though outside Japan they largely stopped using Chinese characters (Korean still used them until relatively recently). Kanji aren't stolen anymore than the English alphabet is stolen. It was adapted to write another language. Hiragana and katakana are just simplified forms of kanji characters derived from using kanji for their sound to write native words (called manyougana).
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Zikten posted...
Kanji originally was just stolen Chinese characters. Originally Japan had no written language. They got it from China. The Kanji characters are the oldest of Japanese writing. Hiragana came many centuries later. And then eventually they invented katakana. Anyway, that's why Kanji is so similar to Chinese writing

They didn't originally use Chinese characters to write in Japanese, they wrote in Chinese, and I think they spoke Chinese as a court language. Later on they started using Chinese characters to approximate Japanese sounds and words, same in Korea. We don't really know what Japanese or Korean sounded like 1000+ years ago because it was all written in characters originally set up for a completely different tonal language.
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sfcalimari posted...
It just baffles me that the Japanese will spend like 20 years learning all kanji ever while they've already had hiragana and katakana for centuries, and while the Koreans have had an alphabet for 500 years or so that can literally be learned in about an hour. Koreans learn a few hanja characters but there's like 10 of them and it's like using a dollar sign or a # for them.

To be fair Japanese has way, way more homophones then Korean.
ssjevot posted...
(Korean still used them until relatively recently)

Hangeul was invented by Sejong the Fabulous in 1443, completely on his own with no help whatsoever from anyone else. I don't even know what it was used for though because until the late 19th century nothing was really written in Korean, literature and government documents were still all in Classical Chinese. It wasn't until the 1960's that South Korea really pushed to end the use of hanja mixed with hangeul. Like I said there are still a lot of common hanja characters that people know about that are mostly seen in advertisements or in newspapers, but it's like using a $ or a # in English.
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JE19426 posted...
To be fair Japanese has way, way more homophones then Korean.

I don't know much about Japanese (obviously) but I know that in Korean they took a lot of words from Chinese, took out the tone, and suddenly you have four or more words that are all spelled exactly the same and sound exactly the same but mean completely different things. Meanwhile in Chinese they all sound completely different because they have different tones, and they're written with completely different characters.
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AbstraktProfSC2 posted...
English is mandatory in many Japanese schools from like 3rd grade until graduation and have tv programs for it etc.
i dunno how well the education is but outright "refusing" it is a lie. most younger Japanese at least know the basics

Also, most Kanji you need to know, road signs etc., have hiragana/katakana/english underneath it

I live there.

The Japanese English programs are not ideal for actually learning a language.

And no, most Kanji in Japan dont have translations. In tourist heavy areas, yes. And these are obviously for tourists, and even then, still to this day contain mistakes.

Just try reading a sentence in all hiragana, and then do it again with hiragana and kanji and tell us which one is easier.

There are people on this board who have experienced this stuff so please, trust us.
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_____Cait posted...
Just try reading a sentence in all hiragana, and then do it again with hiragana and kanji and tell us which one is easier.
THE HIRAGANA IS EASIER!
:D
sfcalimari posted...
Hangeul was invented by Sejong the Fabulous in 1443, completely on his own with no help whatsoever from anyone else

He knew Chinese and based it on many elements of Chinese writing. He literally wrote the document about its creation in classical Chinese. The letters are arranged into equally spaced blocks of a syllable each (as Chinese characters were originally all monosyllabic).

It's generally regarded in linguistics that writing has only actually been invented four times (Egyptian hieroglyphs, Sumerian cuneiform, Chinese characters, and Mayan writing) with every other writing system being derived from one of those.
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I can't really find anything legible about where ol' Sejong the Sublime came up with his letters, I don't know whether he based the letters on Chinese or Indic scripts or Mongolian. I just think it's funny that Koreans always repeat the baldfaced lie about Sejong inventing hangeul on his own when he clearly would have had an army of advisors crafting it for him.

Anyway here's what he had to say about inventing hangeul:



National sound. Different China. Inconsistent circulation of characters. Late fool. A lover who wants to have something, but ultimately doesn't get it. Lots of bugs. Forecast. I'm so disappointed. New system twenty-eight characters. Desire servant training. Toilet daily use.
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If you didn't know the difference between Chinese characters & Japanese characters then what would be the easiest and most simplest way of telling them apart?

I mean I can tell the difference between most Cyrillic alphabets, Kazakhstan is phasing in a switch from Cyrillic to Latin although it'll be close to the Turkish one.

Uzbekistan is trying to do the same
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SgtBash posted...
If you didn't know the difference between Chinese characters & Japanese characters then what would be the easiest and most simplest way of telling them apart?

I mean I can tell the difference between most Cyrillic alphabets, Kazakhstan is phasing in a switch from Cyrillic to Latin although it'll be close to the Turkish one.

Uzbekistan is trying to do the same

Well you have 2 sets of characters used in Chinese and Japanese. Traditional and Simplified in Chinese and Shinjitai and Kyujitai in Japanese. In general most Chinese in mainland China and Singapore use simplified and Hong Kong, Taiwan, and various overseas communities used Traditional. In Japanese stuff written after WWII often uses Shinjitai characters (which sometimes are identical to simplified and sometimes aren't). But there are only 350 shinjitai characters, the simplifications are often minor and are inconsistent (and also names still use Kyujitai most of them time, and Shinjitai dragon looks dumb so games/manga/novels whatever just use the Kyujitai sometimes, also one manga author I like uses Kyujitai in his stuff for whatever reason). The rest should in theory be identical to Traditional Chinese, but in practice that isn't always the case. This is because even traditional Chinese has been simplified and occasionally Japanese is using an older form no longer used in traditional Chinese. You also have some made in Japan characters that didn't exist in classical Chinese and a couple of those are even used now in Chinese.

In general Japanese characters look more similar to traditional Chinese, but it's a mess and you can't really tell without knowing the languages. So the easiest way to tell something is Japanese is to just look for the presence of hiragana and/or katakana.
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ssjevot posted...
In general Japanese characters look more similar to traditional Chinese, but it's a mess and you can't really tell without knowing the languages. So the easiest way to tell something is Japanese is to just look for the presence of hiragana and/or katakana.

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sfcalimari posted...
I don't know much about Japanese (obviously) but I know that in Korean they took a lot of words from Chinese, took out the tone, and suddenly you have four or more words that are all spelled exactly the same and sound exactly the same but mean completely different things. Meanwhile in Chinese they all sound completely different because they have different tones, and they're written with completely different characters.

Can you give some examples of this? Because even if you are borrowing words pronounced the same in a language into another language does not mean they are pronounced the same in the second language. The word "strike" (as in baseball) and "strike" (as in what unions do) are both pronounced, and spelt differently in Japanese (" " for baseball and " " for unions) even though they are both derived from English words with the same spelling and pronunciation. I was under the impression that something similar happened with Korean words borrowed from Chinese.
crayola555 posted...
Ironically enough, if you ask a native Chinese person who's learning english what language is harder to learn they'll most likely say english is harder to remember
Well, everyone knows English is the stupidest worst hardest language in the world, but how many Americans are multilingual?
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Current Events » How can anyone learn chinese alphabets?