Progressives get the Dem civil war they wanted

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Current Events » Progressives get the Dem civil war they wanted
Enclave posted...
Please, you know one thing I've noticed? Liberals talk about purity tests the most yet are the ones who enact them constantly, I mean look at you. Those damn dirty progressives are not PURE enough of Democrats are they? They should never primary our PURE establishment people.

I'm sorry but your style of politics have gotten us into this mess, time to step the fuck aside for people who will actually fight.
So your response to me pointing out the many ways that we are hurting ourselves before even getting to a general election is ok boomer?

Compelling stuff.
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divot1338 posted...
So your response to me pointing out the many ways that we are hurting ourselves before even getting to a general election is ok boomer?

Compelling stuff.
How on earth is the OP about David Hogg seeking to primary some of the useless deadwood in the party "hurting ourselves"?

Sure, if he's ridiculously incompetent at target selection that would be a mistake, but there's no evidence of that so far.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." -- 1984
divot1338 posted...
So your response to me pointing out the many ways that we are hurting ourselves before even getting to a general election is ok boomer?

Compelling stuff.

My point is you have awful political instincts and nobody should actually listen to you.
The commercial says that Church isn't for perfect people, I guess that's why I'm an atheist.
EPR-radar posted...
How on earth is the OP about David Hogg seeking to primary some of the useless deadwood in the party "hurting ourselves"?
By deadwood you mean sitting member of Congress. I would argue that we have more important enemies to worry about right now.

Sure, if he's ridiculously incompetent at target selection that would be a mistake, but there's no evidence of that so far.
Again, if this is such a fantastic idea then why not simply replace the Democratic opponent with a Republican?

That way youre not taking money away from a Democrat somewhere. And youre not replacing what was a win 4 or 6 years ago with a question mark.
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divot1338 posted...
By deadwood you mean sotting member of Congress. I would argue that we have more important enemies to worry about right now.
A lot of prominent Democrats dont agree with you.

Taxes, death, and trouble.
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divot1338 posted...
By deadwood you mean sotting member of Congress. I would argue that we have more important enemies to worry about right now.
Are you actually saying that Schumer, for example, is not deadwood that needs to be replaced?

If so, that's a fucking wow.

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." -- 1984
Enclave posted...
My point is you have awful political instincts and nobody should actually listen to you.
I called the presdential election fifteen minutes after Biden dropped.

The phrase shell end up like Kerry and talk herself out of a job was used.
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EPR-radar posted...
Are you actually saying that Schumer, for example, is not deadwood that needs to be replaced?

If so, that's a fucking wow.
"we shouldn't waste money fighting democrats when we could instead waste that money on democrat incumbents who won't fight republicans"
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I'd support whatever side seriously wants to build stuff.
I want a pet Lavos Spawn.
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Again, some of y'all out here are more loyal to Democratic incumbents than I am to myself and my own mother, it's fascinating.
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divot1338 posted...
I called the presdential election fifteen minutes after Biden dropped.

The phrase shell end up like Kerry and talk herself out of a job was used.
She ruined herself the moment she started hanging out with Liz Cheney and said she'd put Republicans in her cabinet after that nobody give a flying fuck what she had to say anymore, I think the clincher was how despite all that energy Walz had out of the debate that garbage ass debate he had with JD Vance really hurt him, normalizing that empty suit really harmed him
A worthless existence
tremain07 posted...
She ruined herself the moment she started hanging out with Liz Cheney and said she'd put Republicans in her cabinet after that nobody give a flying fuck what she had to say anymore, I think the clincher was how despite all that energy Walz had out of the debate that garbage ass debate he had with JD Vance really hurt him, normalizing that empty suit really harmed him
General election debates are a problem -- the only effect they appear to be capable of having in presidential or VP elections is hurting the D candidate.
"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." -- 1984
DrizztLink posted...
"we shouldn't waste money fighting democrats when we could instead waste that money on democrat incumbents who won't fight republicans"
No. I think you misunderstand whats happening here.

You guys are arguing to waste money having a primary and then a general election.

Im saying spend the money just fighting Republicans. At least until we get out of the modern day Revelations were in.
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divot1338 posted...
I called the presdential election fifteen minutes after Biden dropped.

The phrase shell end up like Kerry and talk herself out of a job was used.

So you're saying Biden would have won, I mean you just confirmed exactly what I'm saying about you.
The commercial says that Church isn't for perfect people, I guess that's why I'm an atheist.
divot1338 posted...
No. I think you misunderstand whats happening here.

You guys are arguing to waste money having a primary and then a general election.

Im saying spend the money just fighting Republicans. At least until we get out of the modern day Revelations were in.
So we skip the primaries, or...?
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DrizztLink posted...
So we skip the primaries, or...?

He just wants his establishment types to keep going. Status quo all the way, surely doing what we've been doing the last 40 years is exactly what's needed to stop the fascists and TOTALLY isn't what helped them gain power in the first place.
The commercial says that Church isn't for perfect people, I guess that's why I'm an atheist.
Post #67 was unavailable or deleted.
DrizztLink posted...
So we skip the primaries, or...?
You tell me exactly which candidates to not fund in the general election so we can do this?

Because this is spending money to fight Democrats that was supposed to be used to fight Republicans.
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DrizztLink posted...
So we skip the primaries, or...?
That's the idea I think. Let the incumbent into the general and spend to keep the seat. Instead of spending for the primary and then spending more fighting to keep the seat.
How can the moon landing be real if the moon isn't real?
divot1338 posted...
You tell me exactly which candidates to not fund in the general election so we can do this?
Pass, answer the question first.
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Post #71 was unavailable or deleted.
EPR-radar posted...
General election debates are a problem -- the only effect they appear to be capable of having in presidential or VP elections is hurting the D candidate.
That's what happens when your entire media industry is owned by one party even MSNBC the so called liberal network sane washed Trump to a fucking ridiculous degree while hammering Harris hard yet Trump despises the media and Republican commentators constantly tell us about the media's bias toward the left, a lie within a lie that confuses distorts and creates a scenario and world where a Democrat straight up can't win against a Republican in today's media
A worthless existence
divot1338 posted...
No. I think you misunderstand whats happening here.

You guys are arguing to waste money having a primary and then a general election.

Im saying spend the money just fighting Republicans. At least until we get out of the modern day Revelations were in.
Oh my god.
Taxes, death, and trouble.
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shockthemonkey posted...
What if the primary challenger is a better fundraiser and generates more money for the general election?
Good question. If you have a way to guarantee that Im all in.

Otherwise all I can say is by and large they arent.
https://www.opensecrets.org/elections-overview/fundraising-totals
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shockthemonkey posted...
What if the primary challenger is a better fundraiser and generates more money for the general election?

When people are excited about a candidate, there's more money pulled in through fundraising.
"Something's wrong! Murder isn't working and that's all we're good at." ~Futurama
Let's fucking go

This should have happened years ago
I could see some kind of equal access campaign with spending limits for the primary (how many countries do both primaries and elections) to save money for the general. But no primary at all? How is that an actual idea?

Also let's back up for a second on the money thing. Democrats have been consistently outspending Republicans as it is. Hillary was about twice as much, Harris three times as much. They have better funded PACs and more billionaires backing them. There isn't some kind of money problem. They have a messaging problem. They aren't selling a compelling message to the low information voters that decide elections. Probably because they are ignoring many of the primary ways those voters get information now (shit like podcasts). I just don't buy the idea that Democrats have a funding problem. There's no evidence for that.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/9/9cf4c5a9.png

Like look at that. You think Dems have a funding problem in the general election?
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Not spending DNC money on a primary challenger.

Not having a prinary isnt a thing. Every state party is going to hold their primary

David Hogg wants to spend money on primarying Democrats. Thats all this is about.

Christ its been three months and everyones already forgotten how few seats actually determine who holds the House.
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Post #79 was unavailable or deleted.
divot1338 posted...
No. I think you misunderstand whats happening here.

You guys are arguing to waste money having a primary and then a general election.

Im saying spend the money just fighting Republicans. At least until we get out of the modern day Revelations were in.
How are we supposed to get out of our modern day Revelations if incumbent Dems just whistle and hold hands with Republicans?
Who is? I am!
So not satisfied just to fight for the few seats up for grabs in 2026, you all think lets go fuck around with the ones we already hold.

Literally all you need to do to make this a good plan is replace Democratic incumbent in a safe district with Republican incumbent in a safe district.
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Post #82 was unavailable or deleted.
The difference between establishment Democrats who want to work with Republicans and actual Republicans is damn near microscopic.

"Let's play dead! That'll show Trump"

"Guys I know it's bad a legal citizen was abducted but he's not politically important enough to focus on..."

Like I'm one of the first to call out "Same thing both sides", but like the golden means fallacy of thinking the correct answer is always in the middle, sometimes in certain context that statement can be true.

Maga are Nazis
Establishment Dems want to step aside and let them do as they please.

The former can't be reasoned with, and the latter feels safe trying to reason with the former.

It's time to cut the diseased arm off, before it fucking kills us.
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And thats why were screwed.

Youre not making decisions with your brains youre making wild ass course corrections based on zero specifics and some extremely dodgy logic.

Hope this works out well for you. But it wont.
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Post #85 was unavailable or deleted.
@divot1338

It doesn't give you pause that the arguments you're making are so broad they could apply to literally anyone with a D next to their name no matter who they are, what they do, what they believe, or who the potential alternative is? It covers Manchin and Sinema. It covers Joe Crowley when he lost to AOC, who by unseating a single, not particularly bad incumbent Dem has injected untold energy into the party.

You have a historically unpopular Democratic Party that is underwater with its own supporters, precisely because those supporters don't see enough fight from them and because they pushed DOA candidates like post-2022 Biden. Keeping on the same track and keeping the same tactics with the same candidates is straight up suicide. We need a huge huge injection of new blood who have being fighters and communicators in common.
I gotta be righteous, I gotta be me, I gotta be conscious, I gotta be free, I gotta be able, I gotta attack, I gotta be stable, I gotta be black.
Enclave posted...
Please, you know one thing I've noticed? Liberals talk about purity tests the most yet are the ones who enact them constantly, I mean look at you. Those damn dirty progressives are not PURE enough of Democrats are they? They should never primary our PURE establishment people.

I'm sorry but your style of politics have gotten us into this mess, time to step the fuck aside for people who will actually fight.

Dude is basically a Republican running interference. I haven't even seen anything really democratic come out of him other than the token "Trump sux".

divot1338 posted...
So not satisfied just to fight for the few seats up for grabs in 2026, you all think lets go fuck around with the ones we already hold.

Literally all you need to do to make this a good plan is replace Democratic incumbent in a safe district with Republican incumbent in a safe district.
I don't think you and I will ever see eye to eye on this, but I'm still stuck on the idea that Hogg and progressives have absolutely nothing left to lose. Dems already don't control the senate, they already don't control the house, and incumbents are already attacking their own and they're already voting for the Republican agenda. Sure it's a risk to spend any of that $20 million on primary challenges against incumbents just to have nothing left for the general election, but what's there left to lose anyways? It couldn't possibly get any worse for Democrats since they have absolutely nothing left to lose. They might as well put in the effort to get rid of the anchors dragging the party down. You're essentially warning that if Hogg does this, then the worst case scenario will be what's already the status quo. So why not fight useless incumbents?
Who is? I am!
tremain07 posted...
On one hand. I get it, this infighting could probably help Republicans by stoking the flames inviting grudges among the groups so they hate each other so much that no matter who wins the grudges will be so deep the bases of those people will abstain from voting or spite vote for the Republican opponent, we saw that every single time from Clinton to Biden to Harris spite votes are real, let's not pretend they aren't.

What people don't get is those voting habits persist regardless of whether the candidate is challenged or not.

Biden had no legitimate opponent. He still got boycotted. Harris had no opponent, same issue. The concept of a primary is irrelevant.

Disgruntlement doesn't disappear just because nobody runs on it.
Sorry.
Not sorry.
"It's a waste of money!"

y'know, we just had a campaign that set fundraising records across the board that got blown the fuck out by a guy who barely even showed up.

Maybe money isn't an issue.
Why not go all in?
I also think just the threat of this might be the kick in the pants the establishment dems need. "Do something to prove you'll fight for your constituents, or you'll be replaced with someone who will"

It's like an inversion of what Musk is threatening. He wants Republicans to abdicate their power to Trump under threat of primary. We want our Congressmen to use their power for the betterment of the country under threat of primary.
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Infighting now is fine while we are powerless.

Copme election time is when we fall in line.
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Hannibal Barca
Umbreon posted...
The difference between establishment Democrats who want to work with Republicans and actual Republicans is damn near microscopic.

"Let's play dead! That'll show Trump"

"Guys I know it's bad a legal citizen was abducted but he's not politically important enough to focus on..."

Like I'm one of the first to call out "Same thing both sides", but like the golden means fallacy of thinking the correct answer is always in the middle, sometimes in certain context that statement can be true.

Maga are Nazis
Establishment Dems want to step aside and let them do as they please.

The former can't be reasoned with, and the latter feels safe trying to reason with the former.

It's time to cut the diseased arm off, before it fucking kills us.
The strategy to "let Republicans hang themselves" has a huge flaw. Yes the people are hating Republicans but they want someone who will stand up to them. Which the dem establishment isn't doing.

Honestly a dem civil war now isn't a bad thing so long as it's solved by midterms. If we end up with more Dems willing to fight, it's a victory.
"So this is how liberty dies, with Thunderous applause." Padme Amidala
Post #94 was unavailable or deleted.
James Carville needs to fuck all the way off
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Good. If they can't win a primary, why do they think they can win the general? It's not like the GOP won't attack people too.
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SubtletyRefuge posted...
How deep in the bogs do you have to be to be against primaries?

I think a lot of people are really out of touch with the reality of the current coalitions behind the parties and really believe the Dems are a bunch of poor working class people working against the rich elites, when they're the party of the educated rich elites dealing with a bunch of grifters who manage to achieve results with far less money by targeting the uneducated working class that Dems just assume will vote for them because their policies are better (again ignoring the vibe based reality of voting behavior). So they really think they need to save money and they're only losing because the Republicans and their billionaires spend more. Dems have had a massive money raising and spending advantage for decades now primarily thanks to their own rich backers and continued focus on this false narrative is leading to really weird takes like "we can't afford to have primaries".
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Current Events » Progressives get the Dem civil war they wanted
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