New York becomes first US city with congestion charge

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Current Events » New York becomes first US city with congestion charge
ZaruenKosai posted...
This is a very bad idea, they are using cameras and automatically charging people? So they arent even setting up a toll booth, it is going to be abused to exploit people and make some people pay a lot more than others. I do not like any idea where people are automatically charged fees without being notified.
E-ZPass and almost every other toll system in the country has gotten rid of almost every single one of its toll booths over the past decade in favor of toll by plate through cameras.

I truly have no idea what you are complaining about.
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Antifar posted...
When talking about "chaos" I think it's important not to lose touch with the reality of the situation. Is the point be safe or to feel safe?

Honestly, I think we've seen that for many people it's about feeling safe. We make fun of it but...security theatre seems to be an important thing.
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InfinityMonster posted...
You're worried about hotlines, when the city and state just blew $10 billion on migrants the past two years, most of who are not even eligible. And now they're begging for $15 billion because without it, they can't fix the shit that's way more important than blowing billions on random people.

I'm not worried about hotlines...it's just an example of the dumbest and most tone-deaf thing a politician has done in the last week or so. But there's a long list, and the handling of the migrant issue is certainly one of them. This moron of a mayor literally spent money paying McKinsey and Company to tell them that trash outside should be in bins and not bags. I'm a Democrat and will vote Democrat on the national level, but the likes of Hochul and Adams are making it very difficult to vote Democrat on the local and state level.

InfinityMonster posted...
The MTA is a blackhole and everybody here knows it. This is a team up between rich people from lower Manhattan, which is one of the highest concentrations of wealth on the entire planet, stupid politicians, and progressive transplants that moved here recently and never interact with people outside their bubble or from the outer boroughs.

I do not think congestion pricing is necessarily a bad thing but the hours for it are just ridiculous. It ends at 9PM? I can imagine this making sense in the mornings because you want to disincentivize commuting to work via car, but I don't see why it should end so late.

InfinityMonster posted...
Long Island is not part of NYC. What are you even talking about? Eastern Queens, eastern Brooklyn, northeastern Bronx, all have horribly slow ass buses or none at all without a lot of walking. That's a large part of the city, especially when you add in SI. Manhattan and western parts that are well connected are a relatively tiny portion of the city.

Add in Central/Southern Queens to that list - Maspeth is not really accessible by subway either.

InfinityMonster posted...
Ahh, yes. People only ever go to Manhattan to work. We're ignoring the 5 bridges/tunnels they've just blocked off, and the damn near spiteful way they've set up things like exiting the Queensboro or Brooklyn in certain ways or being charged for entering the zone for half a street because they've intentionally started the zone from 60th instead of 59th. Or including crossings like Pearl St. Things that affect people even going away from the CBD.

That's the thing that annoys me. It's one thing to block off people who commute into Manhattan, but what about people who are trying to go to Jersey from Queens, or the other way around? There should be some incentive for people who are going through Manhattan and are just trying to get through to Jersey or something like that. This seems like it could route a bunch of folks who just "pass through" Manhattan to take longer (yet cheaper) routes through Staten Island or the Bronx, and, well, that's not going to be good for those areas. And the way they deliberately chose 60th street also seems kinda slimy because then it's right at the 59th street bridge. You know damn well they're trying to make an extra buck off of people who accidentally take the wrong exit ramp.

InfinityMonster posted...
Even London ends their congestion pricing at 6:30 PM (down from 7 PM after people complained), whereas NYC is 24/7 and comes out to almost double the hours. The CBD is basically dead at night outside like 2-3 major areas. You don't need congestion pricing, even if reduced, when shit is empty. It's hard to not see this as anything but a slimy money grab.

That, I agree with. You want this pricing scheme in the mornings to disincentive people driving into Manhattan for work? I'm on board with that. But what the hell is the purpose of extending it until 9PM at night? A big part of me is pissed off because it seems as if this congestion pricing is another way to get more money out of the people who actually follow the rules because they don't actually enforce the fare rules on the buses or subways.
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I missed the whole topic but don't taxes already pay for roads?
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Aztex posted...
I missed the whole topic but don't taxes already pay for roads?
This is specifically to
1) raise revenue for the MTA, which operates the trains, buses and subways
2) reduce congestion and incentivize people away from car travel
Please don't be weird in my topics
Antifar posted...
This is specifically to
1) raise revenue for the MTA, which operates the trains, buses and subways
2) reduce congestion and incentivize people away from car travel

I am not opposed to congestion pricing for incentivizing away from car travel, but if the MTA needs to raise revenue, they should actually start by collecting fares from people who jump the turnstiles. There's 700 million dollars lost every year due to fare evasion, but the MTA isn't addressing that because it's much more cost-effective to toll drivers (who have money) instead.

But the thing is, if they actually stopped people from jumping the turnstiles, they'd have the double effect of raising more money *AND* making quality of life in the subway better, because the people in the subway who cause the most trouble aren't paying to get in.
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emblem-man posted...
Honestly, I think we've seen that for many people it's about feeling safe. We make fun of it but...security theatre seems to be an important thing.
There's way more crazy and aggressive people on the subways now than even a few years ago. They victimize randomly, so the random nature inherently makes it less safer.

Major crime also went up by 35% during the pandemic, while the population actually fell. Things never really recovered. People try to hide or ignore this. From 2023 to 2024, there was only a 2.4% drop in major crime, and that's merely an overall 2.47% drop from 2022 to 2024. Barely anything. A B3G1 in 3 years, with an additional full year's worth of major crime, all on top of the pointless migrant crisis, and the mess of issues it has brought.

Felony assaults, which increased by 5% from 2023 to 2024, are now 44% higher than 2019. Again, the population has decreased in that time.

Things are less safe than before, especially in different areas of the city. It's not just about feeling less safe.

SSj4Wingzero posted...
That, I agree with. You want this pricing scheme in the mornings to disincentive people driving into Manhattan for work? I'm on board with that. But what the hell is the purpose of extending it until 9PM at night? A big part of me is pissed off because it seems as if this congestion pricing is another way to get more money out of the people who actually follow the rules because they don't actually enforce the fare rules on the buses or subways.
London being free after 6 PM is at least reasonable. 9 PM and still having to cough something up all night, especially when by that time, shit is pretty much dead in the CBD outside a few major areas, is clearly just pure greed. New Yorkers just know better by now.

Antifar posted...
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InfinityMonster posted...
There's way more crazy and aggressive people on the subways now than even a few years ago. They victimize randomly, so the random nature inherently makes it less safer.

Humor me and answer a quick question.

Regardless of the jury, what is your opinion on Daniel Penny: hero or murderer?
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InfinityMonster posted...
There's way more crazy and aggressive people on the subways now than even a few years ago. They victimize randomly, so the random nature inherently makes it less safer.

Major crime also went up by 35% during the pandemic, while the population actually fell. Things never really recovered. People try to hide or ignore this. From 2023 to 2024, there was only a 2.4% drop in major crime, and that's merely an overall 2.47% drop from 2022 to 2024. Barely anything. A B3G1 in 3 years, with an additional full year's worth of major crime, all on top of the pointless migrant crisis, and the mess of issues it has brought.

Felony assaults, which increased by 5% from 2023 to 2024, are now 44% higher than 2019. Again, the population has decreased in that time.

MmThings are less safe than before, especially in different areas of the city. It's not just about feeling less safe.

I don't disagree that some crimes are up. It sucks and we need to get a hold on it. The cities are still safer than decades ago, but we should always want a safer city regardless.

I do think there's a level of it that is also the aesthetic of safety-ness as well, that could be low hanging fruit in helping change people's perceptions.

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UnsteadyOwl posted...
Yeah, hopefully the money being raised from this actually goes to improve their public transit system. Encouraging people to use it rather than driving is good but there's no better way of encouraging people to use public transit than to have public transit that's safe, efficient, and reliable.
Ive lived in NYC my whole life and I can tell you for sure that it will not. They said this congestion pricing was to raise funds without increasing the fare, but theyre increasing the fare anyway. All of this money will be pocketed and mysteriously disappear like it always does every time the MTA gets money.
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DnDer posted...
Humor me and answer a quick question.

Regardless of the jury, what is your opinion on Daniel Penny: hero or murderer?

I'm not sure how it'd be possible to secure a conviction in this case, tbh. Witnesses were testifying Jordan Neely was shouting "I will kill," and "someone's gonna die today" while lunging at passengers. He likely had no intention of hurting anyone and was having a mental health episode with a system completely failing him. What he needed was to be forcibly removed to a facility until he was well.

The worst Penny could've been convicted of was probably manslaughter and proving it beyond a reasonable doubt would be nigh impossible with the facts of the case.
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emblem-man posted...
I don't disagree that some crimes are up. It sucks and we need to get a hold on it. The cities are still safer than decades ago, but we should always want a safer city regardless.

I want one thing to be done: Barriers! There is no reason the wealthiest city in the world should not have barriers installed in the subway stations to prevent people from being pushed onto the tracks. More money should be spent on trying to protect innocent people from getting pushed seeing as how it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world

Holy_Cloud105 posted...
Ive lived in NYC my whole life and I can tell you for sure that it will not. They said this congestion pricing was to raise funds without increasing the fare, but theyre increasing the fare anyway. All of this money will be pocketed and mysteriously disappear like it always does every time the MTA gets money.

Yeah meanwhile nothing happens to turnstile jumpers. Fuck those guys.

DnDer posted...
Regardless of the jury, what is your opinion on Daniel Penny: hero or murderer?

Can't we say neither? He's not a hero, but neither is he a murderer who walked onto that subway with the intention of ending anyone's life.

The MTA chair urged riders to "find a way to deescalate", which...again, is some tone-deaf shit, because "trying to deescalate" that type of situation is how you end up killed.
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
Yeah meanwhile nothing happens to turnstile jumpers. f*** those guys.
Didn't the cops shoot four people going after a fare jumper like three months ago?
Have you tried thinking rationally?
Intro2Logic posted...
Didn't the cops shoot four people going after a fare jumper like three months ago?
Yeah and one of the people shot was another cop.

This country is fucking insane.
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Intro2Logic posted...
Didn't the cops shoot four people going after a fare jumper like three months ago?

I seem to recall that guy pulling out a knife

Fare evasion generally isn't as big a problem in most other countries, yet in NYC it's a problem because of how our fare gates are so easy to jump over
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Intro2Logic posted...
Didn't the cops shoot four people going after a fare jumper like three months ago?

The fare jumper pulled a knife and went after the cops. And the cops tried the stun gun first if I recall correctly.
Someone who would pull a knife out at the sight of cops is actually the person we don't want on a train!

For the actual wild shooting, causing bystanders to be hit, the cops should be punished for that.

We should be angry at fare jumpers in general though. You can say we should have fare free public transportation, and I would agree.
But we don't, and if we don't, we shouldn't encourage behavior that lowers trust in public transportation.
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emblem-man posted...
The fare jumper pulled a knife and went after the cops.

Was there video or body cam footage released that shows what happened?
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DnDer posted...
Was there video or body cam footage released that shows what happened?
Yeah it was released. The guy lunges at the cop, he uses stun gun, and then pulls out the pistol
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
I want one thing to be done: Barriers! There is no reason the wealthiest city in the world should not have barriers installed in the subway stations to prevent people from being pushed onto the tracks. More money should be spent on trying to protect innocent people from getting pushed seeing as how it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world
I agree with you on putting up barriers to stop people being pushed/falling onto the tracks. But "wealthiest city in the world" is only because of the amount of wealthy people living there. Not that the city itself has more money to spend on infrastructure. Those millionaires and billionaires aren't going to fund public transportation unfortunately.
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NoxObscuras posted...
But "wealthiest city in the world" is only because of the amount of wealthy people living there. Not that the city itself has more money to spend on infrastructure. Those millionaires and billionaires aren't going to fund public transportation unfortunately.

At the same time, the city caters so much to the billionaires and millionaires all the time

We have the least affordable housing on the planet, in large part because the millionaires and the billionaires do not want affordable housing developments, so we instead let billionaire developers build luxury condos and rental buildings and make more money, because nothing solves a housing affordability crisis like putting more money into the hands of landlords
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
I want one thing to be done: Barriers! There is no reason the wealthiest city in the world should not have barriers installed in the subway stations to prevent people from being pushed onto the tracks. More money should be spent on trying to protect innocent people from getting pushed seeing as how it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world

Yeah meanwhile nothing happens to turnstile jumpers. Fuck those guys.

Can't we say neither? He's not a hero, but neither is he a murderer who walked onto that subway with the intention of ending anyone's life.

The MTA chair urged riders to "find a way to deescalate", which...again, is some tone-deaf shit, because "trying to deescalate" that type of situation is how you end up killed.

yeah, the issue is the city has gone "we can't do anything." Even those frequently arrested just get released until the behavior escalates to assaults.

It's not fair to ask people to tolerate abusive behavior and threats on subways. They're not shelters, places for episodes, anything of the sort. And yeah, a lot of times these people are harmless, but you can't know for sure.

Both the left and right are exaggerating how dangerous New York is, but "just don't take kids on the Subway" is.....a losing argument. it's a very annoying conversation because conservatives on social media post like stepping foot in a city will get you murdered (not true, obviously), but then there's the leftist "actually homeless people threatening to kill you is fine, maybe good."
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
NoxObscuras posted...
I agree with you on putting up barriers to stop people being pushed/falling onto the tracks. But "wealthiest city in the world" is only because of the amount of wealthy people living there. Not that the city itself has more money to spend on infrastructure. Those millionaires and billionaires aren't going to fund public transportation unfortunately.

Not building is a decision NY makes. And it's a choice the West Coast makes. Lack of housing is a running joke there and maybe we should see Republicans run for some more stuff in Californian cities so Democrats would feel some pressure to actually do their jobs there
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
SSj4Wingzero posted...
At the same time, the city caters so much to the billionaires and millionaires all the time

We have the least affordable housing on the planet, in large part because the millionaires and the billionaires do not want affordable housing developments, so we instead let billionaire developers build luxury condos and rental buildings and make more money, because nothing solves a housing affordability crisis like putting more money into the hands of landlords
True. And unfortunately, catering to the wealthy is a problem that the US has in general. But I'm sure putting a billionaire in charge of the country is going to fix that /s

LightSnake posted...
Not building is a decision NY makes. And it's a choice the West Coast makes. Lack of housing is a running joke there and maybe we should see Republicans run for some more stuff in Californian cities so Democrats would feel some pressure to actually do their jobs there
No thanks, keep New York and California out of Republican hands as much as possible. Democrats have tried to push things through, but Republicans often oppose it.
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NoxObscuras posted...
True. And unfortunately, catering to the wealthy is a problem that the US has in general. But I'm sure putting a billionaire in charge of the country is going to fix that /s

No thanks, keep New York and California out of Republican hands as much as possible. Democrats have tried to push things through, but Republicans often oppose it.

What Republicans are blocking things in NYC or LA?
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Starks posted...
I truly have no idea what you are complaining about.
That's ok, neither does he.
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LightSnake posted...
yeah, the issue is the city has gone "we can't do anything." Even those frequently arrested just get released until the behavior escalates to assaults.

It's not fair to ask people to tolerate abusive behavior and threats on subways. They're not shelters, places for episodes, anything of the sort. And yeah, a lot of times these people are harmless, but you can't know for sure.

And even assaults don't do anything

The guy that Daniel Penny killed had been arrested 42 times, including for assault. From 2019-2021, he was involved in 3 unprovoked assaults on women in the subway. I do not know what the right answer is, but telling citizens to "de-escalate" when the other person assaults them without provocation is some tone-deaf shit. There has to come a point where the rights of the many should take precedence.

LightSnake posted...
Both the left and right are exaggerating how dangerous New York is, but "just don't take kids on the Subway" is.....a losing argument. it's a very annoying conversation because conservatives on social media post like stepping foot in a city will get you murdered (not true, obviously), but then there's the leftist "actually homeless people threatening to kill you is fine, maybe good."

Conservatives take it too far, and liberals don't go far enough. The problem is, the purported liberals control the big cities, which is why a lot of big cities saw a hard right-ward shift this past election. Trump did not win NYC, but he won over low-income boroughs like the Bronx by margins not seen since Reagan's time, and that's because even lower-income individuals of color are fucking tired of this bullshit

LightSnake posted...
Not building is a decision NY makes. And it's a choice the West Coast makes. Lack of housing is a running joke there and maybe we should see Republicans run for some more stuff in Californian cities so Democrats would feel some pressure to actually do their jobs there

That's kind of the problem in NY - our Republican politicians don't win because they're Trumpist pieces of shit who can't appeal enough to moderate voters, so we keep getting the same old corporatist Democrats who enable wealth inequality yet keep getting elected into office by virtue of being socially liberal. Kathy Hochul literally considered setting up a special hotline for CEOs to report their concerns about their personal safety. Like, what the fuck is that? But they keep winning because the Republicans are such pieces of shit. We can practically guarantee right now that, even though Eric Adams is literally under indictment for corruption...either he's going to win another term or another Democrat is still going to be mayor of NYC, and that's not good, because the Democrats don't actually do anything of value.

NoxObscuras posted...
No thanks, keep New York and California out of Republican hands as much as possible. Democrats have tried to push things through, but Republicans often oppose it.

That is fucking bullshit

Democrats control both houses of the NY State Legislature and the governorship in NY. The Mayor of NYC is a Democrat.

Democrats control both houses of the California state legislature and the governorship of California. The mayors of San Francisco, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Sacramento are all Democrats.

If Democrats really wanted to get shit done...it'd be done already.
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LightSnake posted...
What Republicans are blocking things in NYC or LA?
Sorry that was my fault for combining thoughts. I want to keep Republicans out of NYC and LA because of what they've been blocking on the federal level (like the contraceptive protection). Not sure about NYC, but Democrats have the supermajority right now in CA, so no idea why they aren't getting more done.
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NoxObscuras posted...
Sorry that was my fault for combining thoughts. I want to keep Republicans out of NYC and LA because of what they've been blocking on the federal level (like the contraceptive protection). Not sure about NYC, but Democrats have the supermajority right now in CA, so no idea why they aren't getting more done.

I'm not proposing giving them power at the state level, but a lot of cities are hotbeds of corruption and inefficiency and they get super complacent and don't need to bother to actually do any improvements for lives.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
The inability of cities to actual build things fast and cheaply, mainly housing and public transportation, is going to be the death of the Democratic controlled cities
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NoxObscuras posted...
Sorry that was my fault for combining thoughts. I want to keep Republicans out of NYC and LA because of what they've been blocking on the federal level (like the contraceptive protection). Not sure about NYC, but Democrats have the supermajority right now in CA, so no idea why they aren't getting more done.

Democrats have a majority in NY too - they have a 41-22 majority in the NY State Senate and a 103-47 majority in the NY State Assembly. The Democrat legislators in the NY State Legislature literally outnumber the Republicans 2 to 1. The governor is a Democrat too. If things aren't getting passed, it's because the Democratic Party doesn't want them passed.

I agree that Republicans are still far worse on the national level, but the 2024 election was a referendum on the Democrats' inability to deliver tangible results on the state and local level. Democrats lost huge numbers of votes in blue states. Dems won 63.5% in CA in 2020, but only 58.5% in 2024. Dems won 60.87% in NY in 2020, but only 55.9% in 2024. Dems won 57.33% in NJ in 2020, but only 52% in 2024. In blue states nationwide, the Democrats got creamed because they haven't been able to actually deliver on a lot of the issues that affect the everyday lives of Americans.

Biden, to his credit, actually tried to do some meaningful stuff that impacts everyday Americans - the infrastructure bill was long overdue and probably needed to be triple its size considering how shitty American infrastructure is. But if Democrats want to ever have a chance again...they're going to have to start delivering in the places that they do control. Otherwise, if NYC and LA continue to be the least affordable places in America, then what good to you have to offer the American people? Clearly, being pro-choice and pro-LGBT wasn't enough to win you the last election, so you need to offer something more.

LightSnake posted...
I'm not proposing giving them power at the state level, but a lot of cities are hotbeds of corruption and inefficiency and they get super complacent and don't need to bother to actually do any improvements for lives.

This 10000%

You can bet your ass that NYC is going to vote for another Democratic mayor even after Eric Adams was a corrupt piece of shit. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if Adams somehow won another term.

emblem-man posted...
The inability of cities to actual build things fast and cheaply, mainly housing and public transportation, is going to be the death of the Democratic controlled cities

There's something known as "Paris syndrome", common amongst Asian tourists who visit Paris, and it's essentially a sense of profound disappointment and anxiety. They have this image of Paris being this romantic, artsy city with nice cafes and everyone's dressed in fashionable clothing...and then they actually get to Paris and they realize that it's just like any other city - it's got crime, huge crowds, the cafes are overpriced tourist traps, the service is rude (especially when compared to places like Japan), and of course, not everybody walking on the street is a model dressed in luxury fashion brands.

I'm going to presume that a lot of similar shit happens to tourists who visit NYC - they think it's a nice place like portrayed in TV shows like Friends except, well...it's not. Don't get me wrong, I love NYC too, but I'd be really disappointed if I were a tourist.
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
He's not a hero, but neither is he a murderer who walked onto that subway with the intention of ending anyone's life.

I don't think he had intent , either. But he sure felt comfortable murdering him once he got his arms around the unarmed guy's neck, knowing how he was applying the technique he was trained to apply.

LightSnake posted...
then there's the leftist "actually homeless people threatening to kill you is fine, maybe good."

Please fuck off with this nonsense. This is the falsest of false dichotomies the way you're painting the debate.

SSj4Wingzero posted...
The guy

Jordan Neely.

You can remember his rap sheet but not his name?

That feels telling.

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DnDer posted...
I don't think he had intent , either. But he sure felt comfortable murdering him once he got his arms around the unarmed guy's neck, knowing how he was applying the technique he was trained to apply.

Please fuck off with this nonsense. This is the falsest of false dichotomies the way you're painting the debate.


Nah, not gonna pretend it's much other than what it is. People who complain about facing abuse from the homeless face nothing short of attacks and abuse from leftist circles and we're constantly told "well, just move! Avoid them! Try to deescalate! Don't judge them too harshly when someone is hurt!"

Jordan Neely.

You can remember his rap sheet but not his name?

That feels telling.

Jordan Neely was provided with help in a facility to assist him and he left it. He was too mentally ill to be able to receive help. He needed to be forcibly confined and treated until he was well enough, but this is something the NCLU and other Leftists groups have explicitly fought to ever keep this from happening.

Neely isn't a villain. He was a mentally ill man who needed help. One can understand that while thinking Penny isn't guilty of murder
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Remember, thinking that cities should only be for those tough enough, is absolutely stupid and the wrong way to think about safety and services
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DnDer posted...
You can remember his rap sheet but not his name?

I knew his name. I chose not to use it. Get over it.

I'm still not sure what you are supposed to do with one of these guys. People stand on the subway and randomly get pushed by nuts into the subway tracks and die. It happens every fucking year. Yes, the odds of it happening are slim, but it still happens, and telling people "well it's not likely to happen" and "get over it" are not the solutions that should be offered to people. When folks feel helpless and feel like the current government isn't really responding to their needs...they vote for someone else. And you wonder why Trump made huge gains in NY/CA/NJ/MA/all other blue states? This is a huge part of why. Democrats have run NYC for ten years and people here clearly aren't as happy with the Democrats as they used to be, and it's obviously not just white people - Trump was able to pull huge numbers in the Bronx that no Republican since Reagan had

If Democrats don't figure this shit out and figure it out fast, they're not going to win an election on the national level for another decade, because the margins they lost this time around are huge and significant. We are one election cycle away from NJ going red and two election cycles away from NY going red.

LightSnake posted...
Neely isn't a villain. He was a mentally ill man who needed help. One can understand that while thinking Penny isn't guilty of murder

Agreed. The hard thing is, you don't *know* if he's a villain or not, you know? You have no idea, and that's what makes it so difficult. Shit, if a dude like Jordan Neely was on my subway car, I'm not sure what I'd do - I don't think I would approach him, but I'd also be scared of trying to leave the car because then I might draw his attention by doing that either. What the fuck are you supposed to do?
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Miquella posted...
I live in Manhattan. SSj4 is right that it's a pain to travel between Brooklyn and Queens, but there are the G, L, J, and M subway lines.

The G train is too short plus it doesn't have enough connections - like, the G train crosses paths with the J/M/Z trains but doesn't actually transfer with them for whatever reason, and even then, that's only Western Queens/LIC, nothing helps you if you're in Eastern Queens. The Interborough Express *should* address much of this if it's done right though, so fingers crossed. NYC needs a real loop line and the IBX is probably the closest we'll get
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Every major city should have congestion charges.
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SSj4Wingzero posted...
I'm still not sure what you are supposed to do with one of these guys.

Start with not murdering them, or thinking that murdering them is an acceptable solution to the problem "because democrats!" maybe?

SSj4Wingzero posted...
Democrats have run NYC for ten year

Reagan dismantled public mental health and institutionalization (however inadequate it was, it was better than nothing) as a public service, setting back the entire country's ability to care for some of its most vulnerable populations, and democrats on the local level are to blame for not getting their shit together to get these people off the streets?

We can't even get federal wages coupled with productivity, which broke in half because of and during Reagan's tenure after 40 years. And it's city-level democrats who are responsible for not solving the even more complicated task of serving public mental health in ten?

Lay the blame where it belongs for starters: at the Republicans feet. Because they are universally at fault for the decline of our middle class, our quality of health care, and our country.

When we solve the systemic problem of having a system that allows Republicans to have a place in it, we can hopefully start addressing bigger problems.

Until then, we can do a lot of things to protect people in cities and passengers on mass transit in general without just shrugging our shoulders at mentally ill people being murdered and going, "Gosh, what else can we do? Because democrats!"

What has books ever teached us? -- Captain Afrohead
Subject-verb agreement. -- t3h 0n3
I'm sorry, did Reagan make NY Dems cut mental health services in their budgets? Did Reagan make Cuomo support the IDC who crossed over to caucus with the Republicans? Did Reagan make Hochul veto progressive bills?

Neely's death is absolutely a tragedy, but acting like nobody should do anything when an unhinged man on the Subway is lunging at mothers with their kids after screaming "I will kill" is not doing people any favors. And this was from witness testimony at the trial. Even if Penny had been convicted, should he have gotten any jailtime?
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
I'm surprised he didn't get negligent homicide tbh
Harris-Walz 2024
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emblem-man posted...
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/7d8168c6.jpg

Remember, thinking that cities should only be for those tough enough, is absolutely stupid and the wrong way to think about safety and services
thats a wild post lmao

You should in fact not need to be tough to live a peaceful life in the largest city in the country.
Hee Ho
DnDer posted...
Start with not murdering them, or thinking that murdering them is an acceptable solution to the problem "because democrats!" maybe?

Who said that killing them is an acceptable solution? I don't think anybody said that. We can simultaneously say that Daniel Penny could have handled the situation differently without putting him in prison for murder (a charge that nobody, not even the most aggressive district attorney, would even dare to consider).

LightSnake posted...
Neely's death is absolutely a tragedy, but acting like nobody should do anything when an unhinged man on the Subway is lunging at mothers with their kids after screaming "I will kill" is not doing people any favors. And this was from witness testimony at the trial. Even if Penny had been convicted, should he have gotten any jailtime?

Indeed. It's awfully hard to say he should be put in jail when the existing solution to handling mentally ill individuals is to...do nothing and just let them be them. What should he or anyone else have done in that situation?

Incidentally, something like this actually happened to me today. I was waiting for my wife outside a restaurant just a couple of hours ago. I saw a homeless guy who was clearly mentally ill accost a woman (saying stuff like, "Hey can I stay over at your place?") and keep following her down a street. She walked right by me and he followed her. I followed him to make sure that he didn't do anything to her. Eventually he left her alone and so I went back to doing what I was doing (neither she or he noticed that I was aware of the situation), relieved that it didn't escalate. I didn't hear what she may have said to her to get him to leave her alone, but maybe he just stopped. After eating lunch I did see that same guy laying on the side of the street, so he's probably just a local vagrant.

But I'm not sure what the right thing to do for her would have been. Luckily he left her alone, but if he threatened to kill her, she would have been within her rights to respond with deadly force, because obviously.

ssb_yunglink2 posted...
thats a wild post lmao

You should in fact not need to be tough to live a peaceful life in the largest city in the country.

I can damn near guarantee that this guy lives in a building with a doorman because he's scared of crime
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started 4/23/2010!
SSj4Wingzero posted...
Who said that killing them is an acceptable solution?

The way I've read the conversation follows like this:

Me: "Daniel Neely was murdered on the subway for being mentally ill."

You and Lightsnake: "Are supposed to do nothing? Leave them alone?"

You've established a binary with your rhetoric that the only course of action with mentally ill people is kill them or do nothing at all.

You said it was hard to justify jailing Neely's murderer because "the existing solution to handling mentally ill individuals is to...do nothing and just let them be them." That sets up the standard that it is okay to kill mentally ill people because you see no other course of action available.

You're shrugging and going that you guess we don't have better options, so we shouldn't punish someone for taking the man's life, and thus implicitly endorsing open season on the mentally ill for your own sense of safety and comfort.

Are you unaware this is how you sound?
What has books ever teached us? -- Captain Afrohead
Subject-verb agreement. -- t3h 0n3
DnDer posted...
Me: "Daniel Neely was murdered on the subway for being mentally ill."
Tbf, I think most people will say that he was put into the fight because he was being threatening and confrontational. Not because he was mentally ill.

DnDer posted...
You said it was hard to justify jailing Neely's murderer because "the existing solution to handling mentally ill individuals is to...do nothing and just let them be them." That sets up the standard that it is okay to kill mentally ill people because you see no other course of action available.

I think he said that for Neely, considering he left the mental help treatment facility, the only reason option is to forcibly hold him in the mental facility, which isn't really favored by many.

LightSnake posted...
Jordan Neely was provided with help in a facility to assist him and he left it. He was too mentally ill to be able to receive help. He needed to be forcibly confined and treated until he was well enough, but this is something the NCLU and other Leftists groups have explicitly fought to ever keep this from happening.

Harris-Walz 2024
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DnDer posted...
The way I've read the conversation follows like this:

Me: "Daniel Neely was murdered on the subway for being mentally ill."

You and Lightsnake: "Are supposed to do nothing? Leave them alone?"

You've established a binary with your rhetoric that the only course of action with mentally ill people is kill them or do nothing at all.

You said it was hard to justify jailing Neely's murderer because "the existing solution to handling mentally ill individuals is to...do nothing and just let them be them." That sets up the standard that it is okay to kill mentally ill people because you see no other course of action available.

You're shrugging and going that you guess we don't have better options, so we shouldn't punish someone for taking the man's life, and thus implicitly endorsing open season on the mentally ill for your own sense of safety and comfort.

Are you unaware this is how you sound?

This is so disingenuous. Again, Neely wasn't just having an episode in public. He was shouting "Someone's going to die today" and "I will kill" and lunging at passengers and also throwing things at others.

This isn't "It's open season on the mentally ill!" Penny only got involved when Neely was moving towards a woman and a baby. Our better options are to forcibly confine and treat people like Neely.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
DnDer posted...
You've established a binary with your rhetoric that the only course of action with mentally ill people is kill them or do nothing at all.

The current course of action is essentially to do nothing at all. What is there that can *currently* be done? We currently cannot forcibly confine someone having a violent episode, even if they've committed assault (as mentioned, Jordan Neely had previously assaulted women in the subway). But absent forced confinement, the average person doesn't really have a whole lot of options.

Now, is it possible that if Daniel Penny had just left him alone, that Neely eventually would've just, I don't know, stopped doing what he was doing? Sure. It's possible (unlikely given Neely's criminal history). But to expect that an average ordinary citizen to go out on a limb and take a risk and just *hope* that someone threatening other people on the subway doesn't follow through with it is not a reasonable expectation.

By claiming that Daniel Penny belongs in jail, what you're essentially saying is that it is the legal duty of every single citizen out there to stand there when the mentally ill when they're having an episode and making verbal threats at other people and do nothing but *hope* that the episode doesn't actually turn violent. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation to be placed on people.
Not changing this sig until the Knicks win the NBA Championship! Started 4/23/2010!
emblem-man posted...
I don't disagree that some crimes are up. It sucks and we need to get a hold on it. The cities are still safer than decades ago, but we should always want a safer city regardless.

I do think there's a level of it that is also the aesthetic of safety-ness as well, that could be low hanging fruit in helping change people's perceptions.
I get where you're coming from, but people don't really give a shit how something was worse decades ago. It's kind of irrelevant. When you achieve something good, and it slips up, especially because of bad policies, people are gonna be pissed off, especially when it was that bad in the past. Very simple stuff.

SSj4Wingzero posted...
The guy that Daniel Penny killed had been arrested 42 times, including for assault. From 2019-2021, he was involved in 3 unprovoked assaults on women in the subway. I do not know what the right answer is, but telling citizens to "de-escalate" when the other person assaults them without provocation is some tone-deaf shit. There has to come a point where the rights of the many should take precedence.
It's kind of wild that people are mad that Trump, who got a non-violent Class E felony, didn't go to jail in NYC because he's rich, when it was because barely anybody would for that in NYC nowadays. Jordan Neely broke a 67 year old woman's face, while having all those arrests, and unprovoked attacks on other women, as well as an attempted kidnapping of a little girl.

He was charged with a violent Class D felony for the attack on the 67 year old, which carries up to 7 years in prison. He was diverted to a mental health program instead of prison, which, like said, he walked out of a few days later.

That's pretty fucking irresponsible since he should have been locked up and receiving as much treatment there as possible. The problem is that the out of touch idiots making these decisions have too many luxury beliefs that put everyday people at risk.

SSj4Wingzero posted...
Conservatives take it too far, and liberals don't go far enough. The problem is, the purported liberals control the big cities, which is why a lot of big cities saw a hard right-ward shift this past election. Trump did not win NYC, but he won over low-income boroughs like the Bronx by margins not seen since Reagan's time, and that's because even lower-income individuals of color are fucking tired of this bullshit
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So people have to pay 3 grand a month to live in a box and now $9 a day to drive.

Why would anyone want to live there. It's not even a pretty city for all the hype it gets.
This is where cool people write stuff.
People driving in Manhattan are probably not living in a box, be real.

Trial-wise, Neely's past conduct isn't relevant, but the fact he was shouting literal death threats and lunging at people was.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
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