I think the only vacuum there is a lack of community, which is very different from a lack of guidance. Within that vacuum, the manosphere offers not just community but a rigid set of principles which that community is prepared to support.
You talk a lot about healthy masculinity, but when you boil down how you speak of its performance and what defines its success or failure...it's not all that different to the toxic variant you're condemning. It still buys into the same lies that people tell men, but instead promises that you can walk right up to that cliff edge and never fall off it. It automatically sets people up to get that one little shove, whether that advice means well or not.
Actual healthy expression of masculine identity, I think, seeks to dismantle that thinking entirely.
The harm is pretty easily observed.
The lack of community is another one of the resulting issues. People, especially immature kids, often avoid severely non-masculine males. In my experience if you weren't athletic or a bad boy or conventionally sociable for a guy you were relegated to either the group of nerds with no more knowledge/connections than you or to just being a loner outcast. Since the others don't want to be "dragged down" to your level or made to feel awkward/unpopular in any way.Not being funny but that amount of influencers that aren't manly but still attract a young audience is insane. On top of that, it's not just the jocks that can be popular. Back when I was at school, there were quite a few nerds in the popular cliques.
And people grow out of these mentalities as they age, but the recipient of the ostracism is still stuck playing social catch-up afterwards.
You raise a good point that a lot of guys are liable to cross the edge. But I don't really know how to manage that issue while also accounting for getting the guy through the door to begin with. When you have X severe difficulty then focusing on Y subsequent difficulty is potentially stretching one's self too thin.There's a presupposition here that the universal solution for these boys and men is to be more masculine. That is literally the issue . It is not an automatic solution to the societal issues facing men. It flat out harms some of us. I've seen so many guys mess up their endeavours that they had in the bag because they just HAD to try and be more manly despite that simply not being what was called for. The idea that there is a single way to be a man is one of the most problematic parts of toxic masculinity.
That would be ideal masculinity. But I think there's a lower level of merely sufficient masculinity that's easier to achieve for those who are struggling. Because if an already fundamentally non-masculine guy rejects the notion that masculinity is a goal at all, then he'll typically just remain non-masculine and have to suffer the social penalties for that.
IMO it's better for people who are already successful to go about dismantling things and renovating society. The guy who's struggling to get by is better served focusing on his own issues, since people don't really want to follow a struggling guy's advice to begin with. (I disagree with that line of thinking, since I think struggle brings perspective, but a lot of people only respect the success that comes afterwards)
To be clear I definitely view incel/red pill expression as harmful toxic masculinity, even in cases where it's only on the internet. I was only referring to keeping to one's self (a state many of these guys occupy before falling down the manosphere rabbit hole) as not being harmful. >_>
You know when homosexuality wasn't accepted the norm was to "encourage them" to "not be"? This norm was obviously harmful and did a lot more damage than not. You don't "correct" people and push them to be something they're not. That's how you get repressed trauma.
You haven't even proven that not encouraging "masculinity" is what leads to "inceldom." You need to do that before you can claim that it's the correct course of action.
Where we differed is I stated that the majority of the incels do "make their own beds".
People also ignore that there's a good percentage of those 20-30% who aren't active by choice or by situations other than "I have negative dating traits."
Most exhibit issues that lead to their struggle with woman that begin and end with them and their personality. It has nothing to do with how masculine they are/aren't.
Teaching boys to be more masculine is not the way to stop the issues we are seeing with young men today. The bigger issue is to teach them to communicate and advocate for themselves; not be passive and afraid.
There's a presupposition here that the universal solution for these boys and men is to be more masculine.
It is not an automatic solution to the societal issues facing men. It flat out harms some of us. I've seen so many guys mess up their endeavours that they had in the bag because they just HAD to try and be more manly despite that simply not being what was called for. The idea that there is a single way to be a man is one of the most problematic parts of toxic masculinity.
That is associated with traditional masculinity. The alternative, waiting gracefully to be noticed and picked, is associated with traditional femininity.Possibly historically, but that doesn't matter. I think we should teach boys and girls to communicate well, including their emotions (which is not masculine) and advocate for themselves (maybe that is). But everything else should be more about letting kids be individuals.
Why not?
TC used to have an axe to grind against perputally single underachieving men (though he seems to have moved on).
Whats the name for the female version of that? Venomous femininitous?
Well that's another reason why it's harder to sympathize at any discrimination towards guys. You have labels like tramp, s*lut or w*hore to demean women who don't remain celibate, but guys only have the approving term player.Just a tip. Don't use those asterisks, as that can get you in more trouble for seeming to bypass the system. I think you can just say those words in the context you are using them.
What other compromise is there?
More nos than I was expecting
Teaching boys to be more masculine is not the way to stop the issues we are seeing with young men today. The bigger issue is to teach them to communicate and advocate for themselves; not be passive and afraid. That goes for boys and girls, as I want my daughters to know how to advocate for themselves.
This has nothing to do with being men or masculinity.
Honestly, I consider what you said to be a masculine traitThat's fine. My follow up points out that being open with emotions should be part of that though, which is not considered masculine.
That's fine. My follow up points out that being open with emotions should be part of that though, which is not considered masculine.
Also what Gladius said in post 123
My favorite color is purple. Thats not traditionally viewed as a masculine trait.Mine too actually
Nudging people out of expressing homosexuality is costing them bonds they could've otherwise formed, which is of course reprehensible.
Instilling values that are less likely to leave someone alone is is a less clear-cut subject. Your point about the potential for trauma is legitimate. But I also think perpetual solitude can also be traumatic. The guys who seek out the red pill mostly started off being unsucessful in intimacy for reasons they couldn't understand, hence why they wanted answers.
I didn't claim it to be the universal cause. I'm saying it's the cause for a non-zero amount of men.
Narcissists and psychopaths have more partners than others - https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/narcissism-psychopathy-sexual-partners/
It's funny that TC expected "no" to get few votes
when almost anyone who is female would probably answer "no."
This is the equivalent of someone saying "I don't do drama" knowing full well they're the source of drama.If a woman ever says "I don't do drama" or "I hate drama", run!
If a woman ever says "I don't do drama" or "I hate drama", run!Been there lol
Well that's another reason why it's harder to sympathize at any discrimination towards guys. You have labels like tramp, slut or whore to demean women who don't remain celibate, but guys only have the approving term player.I agree, guys have a lot of derogatory terms for women. Neither are angels though. Very different for sure. Masculinity is not the culprit though, that's why it's a stupid term to use.
Edit:
Removed asterisks.
I agree, guys have a lot of derogatory terms for women. Neither are angels though. Very different for sure. Masculinity is not the culprit though , that's why it's a stupid term to use.It is sometimes . There are absolutely traits associated with masculinity that cause issues.
All the terms used to degrade someone are lame.
Masculinity is not the culprit though
You don't think that a form of masculinity is responsible for the plethora of synonyms used to objectify and dehumanize a woman for her sex life?I definitely see what your saying and you put that very well,I guess I just think the term tself is a dumb way to describe what's going on..
Like obviously it's not a healthy form of masculinity but this topic is literally about being toxic. The fact women and men are held to different standards when it comes to their sexual partners is absolutely patriarchal in nature and has everything to do with women being seen as breeding stock and caretakers above all else and men being seen as conquerors.
What is your solution to change the outcome?
Again, there's plenty of guys who aren't taught to be a "Certain way" who form bonds just fine and are successful.
There's also men who are nudged to be more "masculine" who end up learning to "walk the walk" and end up going through life depressed because they don't even know who their real selves are because they've been busy spending their entire lives being someone or something they're not.
You need to specify a number and make sure that number is significant enough that your suggestions aren't more harmful as a whole.
Sure and there's many factors to that. Again, one of those factors has been attributed to men being encouraged into outdated dating norms. There's also the online space which I alluded in another post. With more people spending their time online has given a rise to online dating. Competition is fiercer there because there's one female account for every three male accounts and a majority of those female accounts are bots and those that aren't bots are cat fish and those that aren't cat fish are people looking for affection/food dates and then you have a portion that are actually seeking partnerships. Don't forget that men are also limited in their ability to interact with the site based on cost etc but none of this has anything to do with masculinity and whether or not someone is masculine or not isn't helping them there.
If you judge success as "The woman has spoken to and entered a relationship no matter how brief." you can argue that this is a "success" but no one else would measure it that way.
A guy can be outgoing, interesting, talkative, social, and stand up for himself without adhering to "traditional values" of masculinity.
The cause in most cases is a lack of social skills and/or self-esteem. Unfortunately, those aren't things that you can pick up without a therapist.
A man lingers around a woman he wants to date without saying anything, he's "hiding his intentions" "manipulative" and "dishonest." A woman lingers around a man she wants to date without saying anything, well she's giving "signs" and he's obtuse if he doesn't notice them; no shaming for her at all.What are you talking about? Are you talking about men who act like they want to be friends with a woman when in reality they want to date her? That is dishonest unless he is truly okay with being just friends. (Spoiler alert: with what you are talking about, he isn't okay with it). I never see women do the same. They might just give signs and such at times, but that is with strangers, not pretending to be someone's friend.
the issue is when men do advocate for themselves it's called toxic masculinityThis is not true at all unless you have a really fucked up way of advocating
the issue is when men do advocate for themselves it's called toxic masculinity