To circumcise or not?

If only Id repeatedly addressed that as I dont have a foreskin, I can only go off what Ive been told by people that do, and cant claim to know for sure. Sadly, youve got nothing else to latch onto, so you keep ignoring that.

Whats interesting is I started this topic with 95% certainty that I wanted to circumcise our boy (my wife deferred the decision to me since I have a penis and she doesnt), but since then, I talked with my friends who have boys, and learned not a single one of them circumcised their boy. This has now changed my certainty down to like under 50%. Bah.

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

Well it's not mutilation. So it's not a lie.

tbh the most dramatic thing ive seen in the past hundred posts is how strongly you care about how another dudes dick looks lol

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

Regardless of whether you call it mutilation or not, shaming people for not having cosmetic genital surgery is indefensible and it's much worse to apply that to infants and perform the cosmetic surgery because you speculate that it will be more attractive sexually. Would anyone actually think it wasn't disgusting if there was an equivalent surgery to cosmetically change vaginas and people encouraged parents to do it to infant girls because it would make men think their vaginas looked better?

Again you pretend that I said something else.

Circumcision culture was indeed started in the USA by crackpots that claimed it could cure everything, just like how people thought that bloodletting was also a cure all.

Its a relic of the past thats kept in the USA due to sheer stupidity.

Oh yeah, Im sure theres a lot of people that wish they were circumcised.

Would anyone actually think it wasn't disgusting if there was an equivalent surgery to cosmetically change vaginas and people encouraged parents to do it to infant girls because it would make men think their vaginas looked better?

I'm sure there was way more people that wish they were than wish they weren't. Since it's mostly Americans who have it done, based on numbers alone it's probably more likely there are more people who wish they had it done.

Well that would be easy to prove, show some evidence of all the non-American men who choose to be circumcised as adults. If it's so common to want that, it must happen pretty often, right?

Well there's not so that's an irrelevant argument.

Essentially the dude just cited a comment section.

As one data point, Im glad I was circumcised. I would still not choose to do it as an adult. Its not worth it. It IS worth having it done as a baby when I didnt remember it because I was basically not yet sapient.

I am not a dude, thank you very much.

The source of the statement is of no consequence in this case.

If it's not worth doing as an adult, it is not justified to do it to a child and take away their choice. I care less about my penis than most people who have one (I'm nonbinary and am basically neutral on which genitals I want to have, although that means I'll probably keep the ones I have unless we make miraculous advances in technology that make going back and forth quick and simple) but I would still feel violated if cosmetic surgery was performed on me and I was shamed for expressing discontent over it.

I mean. I am literally telling you that its not worth doing as an adult so Im GLAD it was done as a child. If it was worth doing as an adult it would be less meaningful that it got done as a newborn (although it would still be easier so Id still be fine with it.) Im not shaming you though. Just giving you my own stance and experience.

Personally, I actually value the experiences and comfort of actual thinking people over newborn babies, because newborn babies arent going to remember that shit anyways.

No one, anywhere (criminally abusive cases aside), defends causing pain to babies because "they won't remember it anyway" in normal circumstances, so leave that out of it. The only actual reason anyone has babies circumcised is because (whether for cultural or cosmetic reasons) they like how it looks better. It creates a completely needless insecurity (whether you are or aren't circumcised) that you are admitting has no reason to exist because no one would actually want to be circumcised as a healthy adult otherwise. If a statistically significant portion of people with penises were born without foreskin I would absolutely say it didn't matter and both should just be accepted, but the context of forcing it on infants is not something I'm okay with.

I wouldnt want to be circumcised as an adult because I dont like pain and Im squicked out by surgery in general. Otherwise Id be all for it because of the benefits, especially if I knew what I know now, I.e my current lived experience. Please stop imposing your view of my thoughts onto me like theyre my thoughts.

I wouldnt want to be circumcised as an adult because I dont like pain and Im squicked out by surgery in general. Otherwise Id be all for it because of the benefits, especially if I knew what I know now, I.e my current lived experience. Please stop imposing your view of my thoughts onto me like theyre my thoughts.

Your views directly support imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent, you can't just call them personal opinion and ask for everyone to respect them. This isn't about attacking you.

You assume a baby will grow up and have your same opinion. That's a stupid assumption

Yes, Ive said repeatedly that imposing a permanent physical change on someone before they can consent is called normal parenting in regards to medicine. I am saying that as a person who had this done to them, I could not care less that it was without my consent. Because I couldnt consent. I was a child. Sometimes parents do things for their childs benefit. My parents did MUCH worse things to me without my consent, things that were not beneficial and actually caused lasting psychological harm.

Pretty sure I said no such thing.

Imposing a permanent cosmetic change on someone because you like how it looks better is absolutely not standard practice in medicine, at least not anywhere at least pretending to be ethical. The "benefits" are microscopic and come from biased sources, it is very clearly done out of tradition or cosmetic preference.

You implied it

You NEED to circumcize your kid. Can't risk getting phimosis and having your kid think it's normal until adulthood then gotta get adult circumcision which will leave really noticeable scars unless he can some how not get a boner which he probably can't prevent with stuff like morning wood, seeing an attractive person, etc

Sure didnt.

Frankly phimosis sucks so much, and the downsides of circumcision are so minor, that Id probably want it done to me just for that reason. I dont know that Id say NEED, but it certainly would suck ass. I am certain every single person who has ever had phimosis wishes they were circumcised as a kid.

I have never once said you should do it because you like how it looks better. Thats the other guy, who I disagree with.

Your claim that the benefits are microscopic and come from biased sources is what the ENTIRE REST OF THIS TOPIC has been about. The first claim is a determination youve made. The benefits are minor. The downsides are even more minor. Microscopic is a word youre using to downplay the benefits.

the biased sources thing has been pretty soundly disproved, which is why the people claiming it shut up about it and moved on to the next stupid claim. Or in the case of the guy talking about Kellog, stopped responding entirely because they got roundly embarrassed by how wrong they were after spending the entire topic claiming something the exact opposite of reality.

Why would you circumcise a baby if you believe it will grow up and hate you for doing it? You obviously assume the baby will one day thank you

The downsides are not minor, we have either people's autonomy being taken away and then being shamed if they object to it or people who aren't circumcised being told they're repulsive because their penis looking like it naturally does is wrong and something their partners have a right to demand be altered. Whether you personally do those things or not, they happen entirely because of nonconsensual circumcisions. I didn't read all of the 400 posts before I entered the conversation, but I saw nothing proving their were non-microscopic benefits from unbiased sources, feel free to repost the best ones if you think there are.

I dont know how to make it clear to you that I dont believe autonomy being taken away is a downside. Babies entire life is having their autonomy taken away. Welcome to childcare, welcome to pediatric medicine. I dont care. That is literally a parents job. Someone can be upset their parent made that choice as an adult; welcome to having parents. You can also get phimosis and hate your parents for not getting you circumcised, but I dont see you making a case for preventing that outcome thats probably equally as rare. Most people dont feel that strongly about it.

Peopel being shamed for not being circumcised is a different issue that needs to be solved on its own, and never circumcise anyone is maybe the most ridiculous solution. Literally nobody is saying partners have a right to demand their dicks be altered to look better.

I am not going to post the sources I already posted again because you cant be bothered.

You NEED to circumcize your kid. Can't risk getting phimosis and having your kid think it's normal until adulthood then gotta get adult circumcision which will leave really noticeable scars unless he can some how not get a boner which he probably can't prevent with stuff like morning wood, seeing an attractive person, etc. Plus with phimosis you can't clean well in there and it will be painful to try to retract the skin

I'm more inclined to think you're just lying about having sources that support what you said (it isn't like I've never looked into this before, you're the one insisting everyone in the topic ran away in fear from your sources which are apparently way better than any argument I've seen about this in the past) if you respond like that, especially when you're being so dishonest in your first paragraph. You are fully aware the issue is that this is a permanent, unnecessary change and are trying to compare it to health preserving vaccines and things that won't have any effect on someone as an adult.

Just teach your kid how to wash their dick, why is this considered so outrageous? Teaching your kid basic god damn hygiene isn't difficult.

Why do Europeans not do it, if there are so many great benefits? You have to admit that the real top reason it happens is tradition. Whether religious or otherwise. Everything else is an exaggerated excuse. Justifications pro circumcision people come up with to convince themselves they are right

Unless you think Europeans are stupid or somehow not aware that circumcision exists. This is 2024 and they have the internet over there. They know. They just don't think it's a good idea

You didnt actually ready what they said, did you? Theyre talking about phimosis. There is no basic hygiene to fix the issue theyre discussing.

Phimosis may be prevented by good hygiene.

Again your ignorance.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/a_to_z/phimosis-and-paraphimosis-a-to-z

Teach your kid how to have proper hygiene to prevent phimosis.

As always you'll note there's not some huge phimosis problem in Europe so why are the pro-elective cosmetic surgery on infants bringing it up like it's some huge problem? Because they don't have any actual real problems with not getting circumcised to bring up. It's almost like it's a completely needless surgery to inflict on somebody who cannot consent to it.

It's not even really that. Abortion topics do the same thing because they both about bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy is a fundamental right and it's honestly bizarre to see people speak out against it.

And nobody has ever genuinely said "oh I wish I still had my foreskin"

Read your own link. Some
causes of phimosis may be prevented via good hygiene. Some. May. Other causes include scarring, infection unrelated to bad hygiene, literal diabetes as is said in the link, and just straight up bad luck because it was pulled back too forcefully. Thank god you didnt just find the first thing that sort of agreed with you and tossed it out like a shield, or you might look silly.

Do you guys ever get sick of being objectively wrong? Youd think if you did, youd modify your behavior, maybe pay more attention, do more research.