I long believe Michael Jackson to be innocent, til Epstein

Or is he on that list? Since its one person saying they met him?

But question is. How many times did he visit?
I guess we won't know til POTUS releases the full thing.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/03/jeffrey-epstein-list-names-released

But curious to your views on it?

Either case maybe i was too hasty here. We havent gotten the full list yet
https://youtube.com/shorts/k2-iBcrx7uQ?feature=shared

jkay posted...

But curious to your views on it?

I think it's amusing how much emphasis people are putting on it, as if it isn't a thing that has happened constantly, everywhere, for most of human history.

Even if someone's name isn't on the list, it doesn't mean they weren't doing horrific shit to someone somewhere.

oh po

now why would you go and defend it like that

On the one hand, I get where PO is coming from. Epstein's shenanigans are far from unique, and are only at all noteworthy because it's a rare case of actually being able to hold the culprits accountable for them.

On the other hand, though, dismissing that attention because it's not an unusual crime directly works against holding the culprits accountable and risks wasting that rare opportunity. No matter how often people get away with raping kids, it's still important to stop people from raping kids whenever possible.

I do for sure think Donald Trump is guilty as sin.
With Michael Jackson i still am willing to say i wont believe he is guilty til the full Epstein files are released. But for now i still will believe MJ wasnt a predator. He just doesn't come across as one to me.

What a bait topic as if Neverland didn't exist. "Maybe" MJ didn't touch little boys, but he did have an awful lot come close to crossing lines.
Tiger Woods is a confusing one. It's like golf forgot he was a crummy person and celebrated his return, and everyone else just kinda moved on. That man was chased by his wife...

pedro45 posted...

What a bait topic as if Neverland didn't exist. "Maybe" MJ didn't touch little boys, but he did have an awful lot come close to crossing lines.
Tiger Woods is a confusing one. It's like golf forgot he was a crummy person and celebrated his return, and everyone else just kinda moved on. That man was chased by his wife...

Well, tiger wasn't a pedophile. He was just caught cheating and was fucked up and wrecked his car lol

But what did Tiger do to rehabilitate himself?
Other athletes, like say Vick, actually served time and gave back to society, and teams were still very hesitant to take him.
Tiger did what? Give his fans time to miss him? His return was celebrated.

Years ago I was a staunch believer that MJ was innocent but with all the recent developments (not including the Epstein link which isn't really that damning to me) I'm kind of on the fence about it.

Regardless, I do feel that this is one of the cases where we can safely "separate the art from the artist without much of a moral dilemma given he's dead.

I dont think MJ was a pedo. I think he was just weird.

Hejiru posted...

I dont think MJ was a pedo. I think he was just weird.

Thats my take too. He didnt have a childhood so he acted kinda odd, which made people make tabloid stories of him likely.

ConfusedTorchic posted...

now why would you go and defend it like that

One of these days you're finally going to develop reading comprehension, and I'm going to be fucking amazed .



adjl posted...

On the one hand, I get where PO is coming from. Epstein's shenanigans are far from unique, and are only at all noteworthy because it's a rare case of actually being able to hold the culprits accountable for them.

It's sort of this. I generally assume pretty much everyone in a position of power or fame is probably fucking people they shouldn't be, and doing all manner of horrific shit because they know they'll almost certainly never be held accountable for it. The few who get caught are the exceptions, not the rule.

It's less about saying "Oh, it happens all the time, who cares?", it's more about people acting like "THE LIST" is somehow unique. Or that it's even trustworthy at this point, considering how many hands its passed through by this point, and how much opportunity there's been to tamper with it. It's never going to be a magical smoking gun that brings all the perverts to justice.

If anything, it would probably be better to stop focusing on this one specific thing and just start looking into what those sorts of people are up to in general. Especially when you have cases like Weinstein or Cosby where it was apparently an open secret for decades before anyone actually did anything about it. It's the code of silence as a whole that's the problem.

Doubly so when I absolutely guarantee there are people doing heinous shit who aren't on any "list". And who will continue to get away with it because they're better at not going to parties thrown by rappers or shady businessmen.

ParanoidObsessive posted...

One of these days you're finally going to develop reading comprehension, and I'm going to be fucking amazed.

one of these days you're gonna stop posting strangely suspect things and i am also gonna call that out too

ParanoidObsessive posted...

Or that it's even trustworthy at this point, considering how many hands its passed through by this point, and how much opportunity there's been to tamper with it. It's never going to be a magical smoking gun that brings all the perverts to justice.

Yeah, at this point, nothing about "the list" is particularly credible. Half of the people suspected to be on it have had a chance to modify it, and the other half is friends with the first half. To put any stock in "the list" is to assume that there's anyone at the top of the justice system seriously looking for solid evidence to bring corrupt people in places of power to justice, and that assumption grossly underestimates just how much power those corrupt people have.

pedro45 posted...

But what did Tiger do to rehabilitate himself?
Other athletes, like say Vick, actually served time and gave back to society, and teams were still very hesitant to take him.
Tiger did what? Give his fans time to miss him? His return was celebrated.

Once again, I'd say what vick did was a lot worse and people do celebrate michael vick still. The Falcons wish him a happy bday every year.

And yeah, tiger is still probably a piece of shit but what he did is something a lot of guys have done... and yeah a lot of time passed and he's considered one of the golfing goats and people tend to forgive you with enough time especially if you're really gifted at something

tiger woods sucks but infidelity is on a completely different scale than doing allegedly shit to kids or vick's dogfighting ring. infidelity's mostly something the people involved in the marriage need to work out. though the scale of it was pretty ridiculous, i still just don't give a shit. the DUI was worse

Yeah, I mean are we really comparing dogfighting and pedos to cheating on your wife? Lmao

jkay posted...

Thats my take too. He didnt have a childhood so he acted kinda odd, which made people make tabloid stories of him likely.

a lot of adults without childhoods will regress and act like children so I think thats what he did

Kanaya413 posted...

a lot of adults without childhoods will regress and act like children so I think thats what he did

He may have been innocent but he brought the attention on himself by having children sleep over with him

adjl posted...

Yeah, at this point, nothing about "the list" is particularly credible. Half of the people suspected to be on it have had a chance to modify it, and the other half is friends with the first half. To put any stock in "the list" is to assume that there's anyone at the top of the justice system seriously looking for solid evidence to bring corrupt people in places of power to justice, and that assumption grossly underestimates just how much power those corrupt people have.

There's also the possibility of names having been added as well as removed. There are only one source I'd mostly believe now and one I'd kinda-sorta believe. The first is the list being compiled by the victims themselves, and the second would be if Maxwell had a safety deposit box or something that she hasn't had contact with since before she was arrested.

We'll never know the truth about all the epstein stuff unless the government were to be overturned which likely wont ever happen. That list is dying with everyone connected to it

OhhhJa posted...

We'll never know the truth about all the epstein stuff unless the government were to be overturned which likely wont ever happen. That list is dying with everyone connected to it

Why would you believe it even if the government were to be overturned? It's almost certainly been tampered with already, you'd at best be getting a tampered version.

And I'm also assuming you mean a complete governmental change, as the Democrats didn't seem any more willing to release the list than the current administration is. MAYBE in 50 years after everyone possibly involved has died of old age.

willythemailboy posted...

Why would you believe it even if the government were to be overturned? It's almost certainly been tampered with already, you'd at best be getting a tampered version.

And I'm also assuming you mean a complete governmental change, as the Democrats didn't seem any more willing to release the list than the current administration is. MAYBE in 50 years after everyone possibly involved has died of old age.

Yes, I mean a complete change from the bottom up. I dont care about a list really. There is plenty of evidence being concealed that involves much more than a list. I doubt it's all been destroyed. Probably just changed hands

willythemailboy posted...

Why would you believe it even if the government were to be overturned? It's almost certainly been tampered with already, you'd at best be getting a tampered version.

I'm sure an unmodified version exists somewhere , but actually accessing it without the consent of whoever's hiding it is probably impossible. Given a choice, I expect that individual will be taking it to their grave, so even if the entire government were gutted by force, it's not likely to be found.

I remember when he died it was. "He did it to me even though I testified in court he didn't do anything."

"Sure, he paid parents to leave their children alone with him, but he's innocent because I like his music! He was just weird!"

Weird. Is that what we're calling it these days?

the evan chandler case was such a shitshow because the guy was obviously trying to use his son to con for money, and a bunch of the other related allegations were parents not taking the case to the police but instead selling it to tabloids for lump sums of money. idk about much that happened after the initial set of investigations, but the initial allegations were incredibly slimy. seriously go read up on them rather than going off memory and vibes

they even found more evidence in support of him in his autopsy after his death