Your thoughts on the suburbs? for everyday living

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Poll of the Day » Your thoughts on the suburbs? for everyday living
Required reading, whether you like the 'burbs or not, but mostly if not.
https://www.strongtowns.org/
Isn't Strong Towns like super urbanist lol

They would be required reading if you don't like the suburbs in the "here's what to do to make it better" sense, not the "here's why you're wrong" sense
bachewychomp posted...
Isn't Strong Towns like super urbanist lol
a bit, yeah.

The site seems to me to have more an anarcho-capitalist leaning than anything else. It largely considers small towns to be better than a metropolis, and warns against outside subsidies all the damn time.

bachewychomp posted...
They would be required reading if you don't like the suburbs in the "here's what to do to make it better" sense, not the "here's why you're wrong" sense
"a stroad full of fast food and liquor stores, right by the highway" seems to be the "make it better" strategy everyone's running with.

Questionmarktarius posted...
The thing about suburbia, is that you don't want to go anywhere anyway. You already did that on the way home from the office.

I might be missing an implication here, but I find suburban commute to be alright enough because you can typically swing by places on the way into work or on the way home and make it part of your routine. Almost all of my grocery shopping I've just done after clocking out, for example.

Tokyo still completely reigns supreme as living situations go, the very complicated issue there is that they rebuilt the whole place after World War II. To get that kind of city planning in other countries, it would have to be deliberately done from the start with an entirely new city center, but who is going to just artificially make a new city with the intent for it to be the next Tokyo?

Urban sprawl is the name of the game now, smaller cities grow larger and larger until they pretty much become neighborhoods of a much larger city over time.
GanglyKhan posted...
I might be missing an implication here, but I find suburban commute to be alright enough because you can typically swing by places on the way into work or on the way home and make it part of your routine. Almost all of my grocery shopping I've just done after clocking out, for example.
the implication is that suburbanites are more than a bit anti-social.
OhhhJa posted...
You can make this exact same argument for trains and busses man.

Precisely. In that regard, they are the same, so touting cars as a paragon of independence while painting transit as holding riders prisoner for doing exactly the same thing makes no sense.

If you want real freedom and independence, your own two feet are the only thing you can actually rely on. You have to depend on somebody else to get more mobility than that, regardless of how you go about it (and even then, you're probably still going to rely on others to help you walk at some point in your life, even if it's only to make shoes for you).

OhhhJa posted...
There is no question that cars give you more independence than trains or busses. You can plot your own route to any destination you want. You dont have to go and wait on a train or bus to arrive. You dont have to transfer

At the end of the day, yes, cars will always be more convenient on an individual scale than any transit. You're never going to have a train waiting for you outside your door, and it's rarely going to take you exactly where you need to go.

But does it really need to? How often do you drive somewhere on such short notice that leaving 5-10 minutes later to line up with a transit schedule would actually be an issue? Is it really such a problem to walk a block or two on either end? Is putting your book down for a few minutes to move from one bus to another really that much more effort than having to be actively engaged with driving for the entire trip?

Like most things in life, it's a trade-off: You spend more money and effort driving your own vehicle to avoid having to walk/bike to a station/stop and get greater control over your schedule. If there isn't a route that's conveniently close for you and/or it runs so infrequently that it doesn't work for your schedule, that trade-off is worthwhile. If a route is conveniently close and runs frequently enough that you're rarely waiting, though, that's good enough that the trade doesn't make sense. This becomes even more true when you look at the bigger picture than your personal commuting experience and realize just how much more it costs society for everybody to try and capture that individual convenience.

Make no mistake, I get it. I relied on the bus throughout high school and most of university (until I started biking because it was just straight up faster), and I can tell you that I've never run faster than when I see my bus coming and know that I'll be waiting half an hour if I miss it. I think I ran 3 blocks in the span of a single red light once, fast enough that the driver remarked on it. That really sucked. But that's because my transit system sucked, which in turn was in turn a consequence of lower-density development plans that made it difficult to get the ridership needed for more frequent service (which forms a vicious cycle because poor service also reduces ridership). Transit absolutely can be good enough to be a viable alternative to driving, but only if it's made a priority instead of being treated as an afterthought. Insisting that it should be an afterthought because it'll never be perfect is an incredibly myopic example of a Nirvana Fallacy.
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Huh I think you actually may be right about ST being right-libertarian. All I know is I've seen them cited by urbanists who I assumed were left. There is definitely some overlap though, it's just that evidently ST's urbanism is more focused on financial reasoning than human and environmental factors.

Questionmarktarius posted...
the implication is that suburbanites are more than a bit anti-social.

This isn't true at all though. Lots of social people live in the suburbs because they don't really have any other choice. Or maybe they are social but they've already started a family and are ready to "settle down", which is fine and a better use case for the suburbs, except that typical housing developments in the suburbs assume that everyone needs a big house for several people.
adjl posted...
Precisely. In that regard, they are the same, so touting cars as a paragon of independence while painting transit as holding riders prisoner for doing exactly the same thing makes no sense.
When I want to go to tacobell and back, I can drive directly to tacobell, and directly back, or maybe also the liquor store and walmart, and take as long as I want there, while safely leaving the stuff from each place in the car.

Meanwhile, a bus is going to stop at each and every bus stop along the way, and if I leave my booze in the seat when getting tacos, it's just gone when I get out of tacobell (and they won't let me take a case of beer and two bottles of whiskey inside).

With trains, the inverse is true.
When I'm driving several towns over, I can stop at whatever tourist trap on a whim.

The main appeal of cars isn't really the alleged "freedom", but the "random access".
Questionmarktarius posted...
the implication is that suburbanites are more than a bit anti-social.
I think that's the case now. I remember my parents and other parents always socializing when I was a kid. Even if it was parents of kids who were older or younger that we didn't hang out with because they were in a different school or whatever. People are just more anti-social across the board now.
Questionmarktarius posted...
Seems like the "optimal" structure would be a contiguous span of what's functionally rural small towns.
Basically a real-life version of the classic Sim City "donut" strategy.

Honestly, yeah. Denser than that, because rural small towns are too sparse to support more specialized businesses and services (including critical things like hospitals), but that is essentially the crux of the "15-minute city" concept: the whole city is semi-uniformly dense enough that it's possible for most people to live within a 15-minute walk of their workplace, in neighbourhoods that have the density to support essential services like small grocery stores within a similar radius. You end up with enough density to support a variety of small businesses that are much better for the local economy than big box stores, and the density means it's possible to provide frequent transit service that's conveniently accessible to travel further away to visit other people and/or attractions. In practice, you'll still always see pockets of density clustered around transit lines and some manner of downtown/city centre that's even denser, but that's not necessarily a bad thing and you can even it out by improving transit coverage.

And again, that's not necessarily for everyone, but it creates a much more resilient economy

Questionmarktarius posted...
The site seems to me to have more an anarcho-capitalist leaning than anything else. It largely considers small towns to be better than a metropolis, and warns against outside subsidies all the damn time.

They are, but if anything that just highlights why treating urbanism as a left vs. right issue is silly. More than anything, Strong Towns promotes towns and cities being self-sufficient, recognizing that that self-sufficiency needs to be considered at the local government level and not an individual one (they way people tend to think when they consider how driving works, and that's where the right-wing individualism and left-wing collectivism tend to clash). The issue they raise with metropolises is not that they're big, it's that they're fundamentally structured as a productive downtown/core financing all of the surrounding suburban tax sinks, which just doesn't work very well because getting people from those car-dependent suburbs into the core hurts the core's productivity due to the need for wider roads and additional parking.

It's less a matter of "everything should just be a rural small town" and more that inspiration should be taken from rural small towns in developing cities and neighbourhoods, aiming to have them sustain themselves instead of relying on other neighbourhoods. Intrinsically, that has to be at least a little anti-car, because car-centric design does so much to lower the productivity of land and hurts economic resiliency by promoting big box stores over local small businesses.

GanglyKhan posted...
Tokyo still completely reigns supreme as living situations go, the very complicated issue there is that they rebuilt the whole place after World War II. To get that kind of city planning in other countries, it would have to be deliberately done from the start with an entirely new city center, but who is going to just artificially make a new city with the intent for it to be the next Tokyo?

It happens more than you might think. Periodically, China builds train stations literally in the middle of nowhere. Like you come up from underground and it's just a forest with nothing there except the train station. Fast forward a few years, though, and the area's quite healthily developed, purely because the land became valuable due to its ready connection to the city.

(Example, with comments discussing how the area ended up growing: https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/18gxozt/exit_of_chinese_subway_in_the_middle_of_nowhere/)

Historically, that's how most US cities were built, as much as people like to think that America was built around the car: Rail companies would build railroads, slap stations down where there wasn't anything else, then sell parcels of land nearby that people would buy because they knew they'd have easy access to the rest of the country. Boom, instant(ish) city, purely because the railroad made it a good location for one.

Now, is that a viable approach in the US today? Maybe, maybe not. The lack of a useful cross-country railroad and the prevalence of alternatives means you aren't going to see all that much success trying to artificially create a new city by connecting to that network. But if a city is looking to develop a large bit of land and makes a point of developing it as a transit hub - with useful connections to other points of interest in the city - before inviting further development, that sets it up from the beginning to have higher density and support more mixed-use development. Make a habit of that and of zoning new developments with a decent mix of multi-family residential, commercial, and mixed-use lots that have more useful transit connections, and you're on track to develop a city that's a lot more balanced. Bonus points if you rezone existing neighbourhoods in the same way and add new transit connections that promote similar redevelopment.

Questionmarktarius posted...
The main appeal of cars isn't really the alleged "freedom", but the "random access".

The flexibility is indeed the strength of cars. Theoretically, a well-developed neighbourhood would allow you to get that flexibility without a car. Taking a bus between 3-4 different shops isn't very practical, but walking to them when none of them are more than 15 minutes from your home certainly is (especially where, in such a neighbourhood, somebody bringing a case of beer into a taco shop to grab a takeout order isn't going to be all that unusual because it's so easy to get around).

Now, that does make it harder for people visiting the city to do that. If you're living an hour's drive away in a small town with no transit connections and need to come into the city to get those things, a city designed around walking/transit that has little parking is going to make it harder for you to do so. That's unfortunate, but I also can't really take issue with the idea of a city being designed for the people that live in it instead of the people that are just passing through because they want some Taco Bell.

At the end of the day, cars do offer flexibility that is useful. I'm certainly not going to deny that. The problem is not using cars for what they're good at (variable, low-volume transportation), it's designing cities around using them for everything. In a well-designed city, it should be pretty rare that most people actually need the flexibility of a car.
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adjl posted...
(including critical things like hospitals)
A real-life Sim City "donut" strategy wouldn't need a hospital in every donut.
OhhhJa posted...
Getting food delivered is expensive man. Lol I dont know why people are so lazy they'd rather spend 10 extra bucks to have their food delivered instead of just driving a mile down the road. Thats where we're at as a society

Here, its often cheaper to get it delivered than it is to go and get it yourself. I literally used to get pizza delivered from somewhere that was 100 metres from my front door because it was cheaper somehow to get a man on a motorbike to drive over and carry it that distance.

Also, most people dont have cars here either.
Glob posted...
its often cheaper to get it delivered than it is to go and get it yourself. I literally used to get pizza delivered from somewhere that was 100 metres from my front door because it was cheaper somehow to get a man on a motorbike to drive over and carry it that distance.
This makes zero sense

Its cheaper to get delivery than carryout?
Cupcake
Cupcake2006 posted...
This makes zero sense

Its cheaper to get delivery than carryout?
I know ubereats will have deals what not but I think generally if youre ordering a ton or order all the time. Highly doubt its usually cheaper to get it delivered
Cupcake2006 posted...
This makes zero sense

Its cheaper to get delivery than carryout?

I can believe it, if the driver gets paid per delivery instead of an hourly rate. Somebody manning the till inside would be getting paid regardless of how many orders were coming in, and would be limited in what other tasks they could perform because it's bad to make walk-in customers wait too long. If the driver only gets paid when there's a delivery, you don't waste any wages when there aren't any, plus you can use more of the restaurant for seating instead of needing to accommodate waiting pick-up customers. To that end, discounting delivery to encourage people to choose that option could end up saving money in the bigger picture, even if it seems weird at first glance that it's cheaper to bring in an extra person to do more work.

Also, consider parking. If people try to save money by picking it up themselves instead of getting delivery, but when they get there they can't find a parking spot, that sours the whole experience and makes them less likely to review the place well or come back again. That, then, means that a restaurant that's expecting significant take-out traffic needs a larger lot to provide that parking space, which costs more money overall and it's quite believable that losing a bit of money on each delivery would be made up for by saving money with a smaller lot. That's less of a concern in Glob's case because driving isn't the standard in his neighbourhood, but in more driving-centric areas it's definitely an issue.
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my usual taco bell order is $16-18 because shits expensive there now

with uber eats, i can get my usual order twice, throw on the 60% off coupons they throw at you like candy, and the entire order, with delivery fees and tip, is now slightly cheaper than just going there and getting the usual order once

idk wtf glob is talking about though, ordering delivery from any pizza place is going to be more expensive than just going to get it

here's an example

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/a/ab6b7918.jpg

the order on just taco bells app

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/c7ecd2d7.jpg

the same order on uber eats

when you get these coupons, you would be stupid to not use them if you're going to order food anyways. hell, you can even just select pickup and save in a delivery fee and won't have to tip, making it even cheaper.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/5/59b2351d.jpg
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Messed around in the backyard garden all afternoon, than drank a bunch of beer by the firepit.
Can't really do that in an apartment tower.
Cupcake2006 posted...
This makes zero sense

Its cheaper to get delivery than carryout?

Yeah, because theres always deals on that save you money on the delivery app, and the value of those often exceeds the delivery fee.

Using the pizza place I was talking about as an example, if I go myself, I pay for the cost of the pizza, which is 300,000. If I order online, the pizza still costs 300,000, and theres a delivery fee of 10,000. However, I then put on all the available offers from the delivery app and they total 83,000. So overall, getting delivery is 73,000 cheaper.

It doesnt always work out cheaper to get it delivered here, but Id say its probably around half the time. And when its more expensive, its by a completely insignificant amount in most cases.
I guess that's the other thing: Even if the base price of delivery is higher (which is intuitive), it's usually easier to find discounts for delivery than for takeout.
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But is that sustainable?

If I can get 25% off delivery of a $20 pizza (cost to me is $15) vs a $18 carry-out.. is that repeatable? In my experience, those deals only work once. So in the long run, carry-out is still cheaper.
Cupcake
Cupcake2006 posted...
But is that sustainable?

If I can get 25% off delivery of a $20 pizza (cost to me is $15) vs a $18 carry-out.. is that repeatable? In my experience, those deals only work once. So in the long run, carry-out is still cheaper.

I probably ordered from that pizza place at least 20 times and the deals were always there. Things just work differently here.

The guy delivering it is going to be earning a woefully low amount.
Cupcake2006 posted...
But is that sustainable?

If I can get 25% off delivery of a $20 pizza (cost to me is $15) vs a $18 carry-out.. is that repeatable? In my experience, those deals only work once. So in the long run, carry-out is still cheaper.

I would guess it depends just how often you're ordering take-out. If you're doing it a couple times a week, you're probably going to run out of coupons/discounts. If you're doing it once a month or so, you might have more luck as promotions repeat.
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adjl posted...
I would guess it depends just how often you're ordering take-out. If you're doing it a couple times a week, you're probably going to run out of coupons/discounts. If you're doing it once a month or so, you might have more luck as promotions repeat.

No, thats not how it works. All my meals are either delivered to my home or eaten out at nicer restaurants. I never run out. Its not a physical coupon. You can keep reusing them as long as you meet their terms on each transaction.
Look, heres another example:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/8/8a60c417.jpg
The delivery fee is 9,000.

But by ordering on the app for delivery, Ive saved 105,000.

So, as counter intuitive as it is, involving another human being and getting him/her to drive it over to me changes the price (in this instance from 270,000) to 192,000. Its significantly cheaper.

Those offers can be used again and again on that order.
Wait what country is this
Cupcake
Glob posted...
No, thats not how it works. All my meals are either delivered to my home or eaten out at nicer restaurants. I never run out. Its not a physical coupon. You can keep reusing them as long as you meet their terms on each transaction.

Huh. Go figure. I knew it wasn't a physical coupon, but I figured it was more just a matter of taking advantage of digital offers as they popped up, not a perpetual discount. In that case, I guess it's back to my earlier speculation about trying to avoid using space in/outside the restaurant for people to wait for take-out.
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I live in a small suburb of Oakland and its generally fine.
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Cupcake2006 posted...
Wait what country is this

Vietnam.
Poll of the Day » Your thoughts on the suburbs? for everyday living
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