I hate when games require knowing hidden paths/secrets to beat them

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Poll of the Day » I hate when games require knowing hidden paths/secrets to beat them
Examples of this include Zelda games, Castlevania 2, Goldeneye (Egyptian level)

What are your thoughts on this?
I really mean that much to you?
Girl, You Know It's True
it's cool if done well, but usually really well hidden stuff should lead to a bonus or some kind of extra reward.

unless we're talking metroidvania. that kind of mild frustration is part of the experience.
http://i.imgur.com/ElACjJD.gifv
"Most of the time, I have a whole lot more sperm inside me than most women do." - adjl
Nade_Duck posted...
unless we're talking metroidvania. that kind of mild frustration is part of the experience.

Nah, there should be some direction. Metroid Zero Mission is MUCH better than the original NES Metroid for example
I really mean that much to you?
Girl, You Know It's True
Damn_Underscore posted...
Nah, there should be some direction. Metroid Zero Mission is MUCH better than the original NES Metroid for example
agreed, but super metroid is better than both and it's outright goofy at a couple points.
http://i.imgur.com/ElACjJD.gifv
"Most of the time, I have a whole lot more sperm inside me than most women do." - adjl
When it comes to the King's Quest games I played, I share that sentiment - absolutely needed a hint book at times.
"Shhh! Ben, don't ruin the ending!" --Adrian Ripburger, Full Throttle
I like stuff like the hidden warp pipes/whistles/etc in SMB, where finding them could save you time but you could still win without them.



KJ_StErOiDs posted...
When it comes to the King's Quest games I played, I share that sentiment - absolutely needed a hint book at times.

That's because the old Sierra and LucasArts games from the 90s were basically designed to be nearly impossible in order to force you to call the tip hotline so they could make more money off you.

It was the microtransactions of its era.
"Wall of Text'D!" --- oldskoolplayr76
"POwned again." --- blight family
Damn_Underscore posted...
Nah, there should be some direction. Metroid Zero Mission is MUCH better than the original NES Metroid for example
The original Metroid is an extreme example because of how many dead ends there are and how everything looks the same.

They literally intended you to draw a map and trial and error your way through.
http://i.imgur.com/1XbPahR.png
Nade_Duck posted...
agreed, but super metroid is better than both and it's outright goofy at a couple points.

When I finally beat Super Metroid (years late but still a good while ago by now), I regularly needed a guide to point me in the right direction, then on reaching Ridley, I found I just did not have the energy tanks and firepower to do it, had to grab the FAQ again to find tons of missed ones and only then could I do it. I realize thousands of gamers can do Super Metroid in their sleep now, but I could not. Both Fusion and Zero Mission clicked far better with me.

But I did save the animals.
A gentleman will walk, but never run
Sashanan posted...
When I finally beat Super Metroid (years late but still a good while ago by now), I regularly needed a guide to point me in the right direction, then on reaching Ridley, I found I just did not have the energy tanks and firepower to do it, had to grab the FAQ again to find tons of missed ones and only then could I do it. I realize thousands of gamers can do Super Metroid in their sleep now, but I could not. Both Fusion and Zero Mission clicked far better with me.

But I did save the animals.
I can still speed run the game while doing the bosses out of order. Demonoid can do it a lot faster.
There are four lights.
Im typically too dumb to figure that stuff out so I end up having to look it up and then feeling bad about myself.

Your days are numbered now, Decepti-creeps
Since when do Zelda games require finding hidden paths? Most I can think of is a few blaringly obvious bombable walls. Those game's puzzles are as basic as can be.

Though, unrelated but sort of relevant, remember when Jet Force Gemini required you to find every single one of the hidden teddy bears to even get into the second half of the game?
gotta sell those guides somehow
https://i.imgur.com/TWsfIIj.gif
Salrite posted...
Since when do Zelda games require finding hidden paths? Most I can think of is a few blaringly obvious bombable walls. Those game's puzzles are as basic as can be.

Though, unrelated but sort of relevant, remember when Jet Force Gemini required you to find every single one of the hidden teddy bears to even get into the second half of the game?
The first game's 'Master Quest' is pretty cryptic without a guide
Delicious and vicious, while maliciously nutritious.
SilentSeph posted...
The first game's 'Master Quest' is pretty cryptic without a guide

A bonus mode from a time when all games were exceptionally difficult and lacked conveyance
how were you supposed to know how to figure this out?
https://i.imgur.com/TRLGNgj.png
*flops*
Beveren_Rabbit posted...
how were you supposed to know how to figure this out?
https://i.imgur.com/TRLGNgj.png
IIRC there is a broken one near it, and the room it goes through clearly shows that you can go up and down from that point. That doesn't tell you how to break it but it's a pretty good clue that it can be broken.
There are four lights.
Speaking of Metroid, there is a part close to the end of Metroid Fusion where you have to navigate through a maze of rocks. I thought I was softlocked because the paths in that maze were so unclear.

Also I played through the game normally but I could not beat the final boss without using a cheese method. That wouldn't be a big deal normally, but once you get to the final section of the game you can't go back, you can only fight the final boss...
I really mean that much to you?
Girl, You Know It's True
Beyond NES I can't really think of a lot of games where something was mandatory to advance and had zero hints or context clues. I'm not sure I'd take confusing games over what we have now, but I will say modern stuff is far too hand holdy. And by modern I mean since the mid 2010s or so. Some people have been calling games hand holdy since the 2000s, but I think that was actually a sweet spot, where we were long past NES-style cryptic clues, but games also didn't try to wave you through every objective
I think a lot of NES games were just so vague and unclear that they became cryptic.

They are not truly in the same category as games like Castlevania 2 where you have to equip a certain item and crouch in a special corner for 5 seconds to get through
I really mean that much to you?
Girl, You Know It's True
no one tells you that Spongebob's bowling animation makes you walk forward. No one tells you that you have to wind up the animation to make sure that you're still on the button when Spongeobb finishes his bowling animation.
*flops*
Sashanan posted...
When I finally beat Super Metroid (years late but still a good while ago by now), I regularly needed a guide to point me in the right direction, then on reaching Ridley, I found I just did not have the energy tanks and firepower to do it, had to grab the FAQ again to find tons of missed ones and only then could I do it. I realize thousands of gamers can do Super Metroid in their sleep now, but I could not. Both Fusion and Zero Mission clicked far better with me.

But I did save the animals.
i needed a guide my first time through as well. i was pretty young and dumb but also for a lot of games (especially older ones) i don't really see the shame in it and i don't feel like it detracts from the spoilers (unless you maybe open the prima book up to a random page and discover your happy pink girlfriend gets turned into a shishkebob about 20 hours before you were meant to). unless you're really good ridley's going to be tough with only a few upgrades. not to mention they can play like that because they've been through it thousands of times, there's really no reason to feel bad about derping up a few times on your first playthrough.

Damn_Underscore posted...
Speaking of Metroid, there is a part close to the end of Metroid Fusion where you have to navigate through a maze of rocks. I thought I was softlocked because the paths in that maze were so unclear.

Also I played through the game normally but I could not beat the final boss without using a cheese method. That wouldn't be a big deal normally, but once you get to the final section of the game you can't go back, you can only fight the final boss...
i didn't like fusion much tbh. it's the one 2D metroid i didn't care for.

the only time i think i've really enjoyed a samey maze gimmick in a game is zelda, and that's only really because the lost woods pattern is always the same.
http://i.imgur.com/ElACjJD.gifv
"Most of the time, I have a whole lot more sperm inside me than most women do." - adjl
bachewychomp posted...
Beyond NES I can't really think of a lot of games where something was mandatory to advance and had zero hints or context clues. I'm not sure I'd take confusing games over what we have now, but I will say modern stuff is far too hand holdy. And by modern I mean since the mid 2010s or so. Some people have been calling games hand holdy since the 2000s, but I think that was actually a sweet spot, where we were long past NES-style cryptic clues, but games also didn't try to wave you through every objective

There's definitely a difference between giving you all the necessary information and leaving you to solve the puzzle on your own and whatever most of those old point and click adventures were thinking.
LucasArts adventure games have those dumb puzzles but you always experience 100% of the game and usually you can't die

Sierra games softlock you without you knowing sometimes all the time. They look nice but the gameplay is borderline evil. And look up King's Quest 3 lol...

I really like the Broken Sword series, the puzzles are usually pretty intuitive
I really mean that much to you?
Girl, You Know It's True
Secret Area!
You crazy Rocket Jumpers!
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
Minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
Damn_Underscore posted...
They look nice but the gameplay is borderline evil. And look up King's Quest 3 lol
Also evil is, instructions for one of the spells is incorrect in some versions of the KQ3 game manual.
"Shhh! Ben, don't ruin the ending!" --Adrian Ripburger, Full Throttle
KJ_StErOiDs posted...
Also evil is, instructions for one of the spells is incorrect in some versions of the KQ3 game manual.

I hated even more the archaic "DRM" they had by putting required information in the manual that I never seemed to have. King's Quest VI had this with translation for runes and Erik The Unready had measurements for a suit of armor, and I think they were unique for each copy of the game.
The unofficial FAQ that came with my pirated copy of KQ3 way back when did have the spell recipes in them for all but the teleportation stone which is indeed optional. It's meant for eluding the yeti, but a little back and forthing and the magic map can get you past him too. More critically it was either missing or misspelled the activation spell for the storm brew, and my so-so English at the time could not figure out how to deal with the dragon.

It *was* the first KQ I played in earnest and so it has some nostalgia value left for me. But looking at it honestly, most of the game is spent saving a lot on treacherous paths, gathering ingredients fighting the timer before the wizard returns to catch you with them, and typing in spell steps and rhymes from the manual.
A gentleman will walk, but never run
Blightzkrieg posted...
The original Metroid is an extreme example because of how many dead ends there are and how everything looks the same.

They literally intended you to draw a map and trial and error your way through.
Well, there's also one specific block that you have to use a morphball bomb for before you can progress down to...Kraid I think? There's no hint and it's not in a 'special' spot of any sort, so I would chalk that up as entirely bad design. Although, standards were different in the 80s.

I'm fine with pretty abstract 'secrets' as long as a CPU in the overworld at least mentions it. That's usually how it was - even if it was pretty odd, it was usually mentioned somewhere. I'm not sure if that's the case with Zelda or not, assuming we're thinking about burning the bush to get to dungeon 8 iirc
girls like my fa
OK yeah, it's right before the High Jump.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/7/7d420bba.png
girls like my fa
and in Zelda NES there IS a hint for the 8th dungeon: "Secret is in the tree at the dead end"

not an amazing hint, but the fact that there IS information on it makes it better designed than Metroid
girls like my fa
Tunic: manual being in gibberish. Thanks devs, you put a hint system that essentially requires the internet to understand. Totally not going to make kids ragequit when they get walled and can't figure out where to go next.
StarTropics came with a physical copy of the letter your uncle sent you which gets you started on the quest. At one point, the game instructs you to dip the letter in water. If you had lost the letter, bought the game used and it didn't come with it, or didn't realize the game meant for you to literally dunk the sheet of paper underwater, then you could never obtain the code required to proceed in the game. And you couldn't just look it up on GameFAQs: the game came out 6 years before the World Wide Web even existed.

Final Fantasy Adventure/Adventures of Mana has a dungeon that is exceedingly difficult without a walkthrough or map. Every wrong turn takes you back to the start of the dungeon, and the most obvious of the two possible paths, straight up, leads to the Golem, who is unbeatable without the Morning Star (or a hell of a lot of mattocks, and if you do that, the Morning Star becomes unobtainable). You have to break down a wall and take a very convoluted path to get to the Cyclops and obtain the Morning Star. While it is possible to figure out the path through trial and error (I did), it is a massive pain in the butt without a map.
Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum,
Minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
DiduXD posted...
Tunic: manual being in gibberish. Thanks devs, you put a hint system that essentially requires the internet to understand. Totally not going to make kids ragequit when they get walled and can't figure out where to go next.
That's pretty odd! I've played the first bit of Tunic and it's pretty sweet - how far in is that?
girls like my fa
ReturnOfFa posted...

That's pretty odd! I've played the first bit of Tunic and it's pretty sweet - how far in is that?

Got walled after finding the shield and completing (what I assume) is an optional loop up north of that. This game really needed a better hint system or a translated manual that doesn't require Google. I can only imagine how many kids gave up once they realized the game stops guiding (it does a pretty good job up until the shield but then just drops the guidance to nothing).
Tunic does get annoyingly esoteric head up its own ass, but I was able to figure out at least enough to get a bad ending iirc. After that though yeah it's rough, and also the directional input puzzles aren't fun.

I don't think the target audience for this game is kids though. Kids barely know any games outside of Fortnite, Minecraft, 2K, Madden and CoD, they aren't going to play an indie loose old Zelda homage with souls elements
Yeah Tunic is explicitly a cryptic puzzle game, that's the whole point. It's not really supposed to be a child's first dungeon crawl.
http://i.imgur.com/1XbPahR.png
Poll of the Day » I hate when games require knowing hidden paths/secrets to beat them