Imperials vs Stormcloaks

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Poll of the Day » Imperials vs Stormcloaks
Who should win? I think it's better if the Stormcloaks win.
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I'm always going to side with the people who didn't try to cut my head off because they couldn't be bothered to do the least possible amount of double-checking.

And not with the people who are working with the assholes who are literally trying to destroy the universe .
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I stayed out of it for quite a long time in my first Skyrim playthrough because I recognized the Imperials as being elitist colonizers with direct ties to the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks as being racist reactionaries that lacked a cohesive direction (while also ironically having direct ties to the Thalmor as well ).

However, I was walking near Whiterun at one point and a group of Imperial soldiers escorting a prisoner encountered me and started a dialogue which lead to them attacking me. I managed to free the prisoner who then encouraged me to join the Stormcloaks, which I immediately went and did.

I have to give credit to Skyrim for having such an immersive world like that. Playing Skyrim really felt like I was part of world that unfolded directly due to every action I made.
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Why not both? Anarchism is the way to go and the only way to get that is total annihilation
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When in doubt, pick the ones who aren't Nazis.
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KalloFox34 posted...
When in doubt, pick the ones who aren't Nazis.

what if they're both nazis?
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I went Imperial mostly because the Stormcloaks don't really seem to have a plan for dealing with the Thalmor if they somehow manage to win.
Wish I had the option to destroy both, honestly
He's all alone through the day and night.
Imperials. Stormcloaks are uncomfortably similar to a certain group in power right now.
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LonelyStoner posted...
Wish I had the option to destroy both, honestly

Then you'd just be supporting the Thalmor.



rjsilverthorn posted...
I went Imperial mostly because the Stormcloaks don't really seem to have a plan for dealing with the Thalmor if they somehow manage to win.

The Imperials don't really have one either.

It's basically "Let's deal with this one problem, then we can prepare for the other problem" versus "Let's grab our ankles and hope everything works out". Neither is really a viable strategy.

Though it's also implied in the narrative that the Nords were winning most of their battles during the war with the Thalmor, and it was the Imperials who folded, so in a scenario where Skyrim goes independent there's always the possibility that the better fighters having to defend a much smaller region means they'd win any war against the Thalmor (so long as they weren't constantly being bled by the Empire at the same time). Same goes for the Redguard, who were basically doing an effective job of fighting back against the Thalmor until they were sold out by their own allies (which is a significant part of what prompted Skyrim to rebel in the first place).

That's the main reason why the Thalmor don't want either side to win the civil war. The longer the Imperials fight the Stormcloaks, the weaker each faction gets, and the easier it will be for the Thalmor to maintain their own powerbase (or expand it). Either side winning solidifies powerful opposition that will be far better equipped to oppose the Thalmor.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...
Then you'd just be supporting the Thalmor.

The Imperials don't really have one either.

It's basically "Let's deal with this one problem, then we can prepare for the other problem" versus "Let's grab our ankles and hope everything works out". Neither is really a viable strategy.

Though it's also implied in the narrative that the Nords were winning most of their battles during the war with the Thalmor, and it was the Imperials who folded, so in a scenario where Skyrim goes independent there's always the possibility that the better fighters having to defend a much smaller region means they'd win any war against the Thalmor (so long as they weren't constantly being bled by the Empire at the same time). Same goes for the Redguard, who were basically doing an effective job of fighting back against the Thalmor until they were sold out by their own allies (which is a significant part of what prompted Skyrim to rebel in the first place).

That's the main reason why the Thalmor don't want either side to win the civil war. The longer the Imperials fight the Stormcloaks, the weaker each faction gets, and the easier it will be for the Thalmor to maintain their own powerbase (or expand it). Either side winning solidifies powerful opposition that will be far better equipped to oppose the Thalmor.
That's why we need the dragonborn to take over as king of the world
Muscles
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Muscles posted...
That's why we need the dragonborn to take over as king of the world

Considering how Bethesda tends to say "Fuck it, you completed every questline and all endings somehow occurred simultaneously", you end the game as the only living Dragonborn who has effectively single-handedly won a civil war and assassinated the last surviving Emperor.

I wouldn't be surprised if Elder Scrolls VI just skips ahead a couple hundred years, and reveals that you became the new Emperor, reunited the Empire, and led a war against the Thalmor.

Of course, you also apparently sold your soul to at least one Daedric Prince because the Thieves' Guild quest was incredibly stupid, so who knows.
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faramir77 posted...
I stayed out of it for quite a long time in my first Skyrim playthrough because I recognized the Imperials as being elitist colonizers with direct ties to the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks as being racist reactionaries that lacked a cohesive direction (while also ironically having direct ties to the Thalmor as well ).

However, I was walking near Whiterun at one point and a group of Imperial soldiers escorting a prisoner encountered me and started a dialogue which lead to them attacking me. I managed to free the prisoner who then encouraged me to join the Stormcloaks, which I immediately went and did.

I have to give credit to Skyrim for having such an immersive world like that. Playing Skyrim really felt like I was part of world that unfolded directly due to every action I made.
And yet that same stormcloak will rat you out if you kill the imperials before making them hostile and you leave the stormcloak prisoner alive.

ParanoidObsessive posted...
Of course, you also apparently sold your soul to at least one Daedric Prince because the Thieves' Guild quest was incredibly stupid, so who knows.
You have to side with Hermaeus to complete Dragonborn. All DLC is considered canon unlike the faction questlines. The DLC itself shows you how Hermaeus already trapped a Dragonborn in his realm.

Each time a Black Book is used the ability to leave Apocrypha becomes harder. The fact one book allows you to reset skills unlimitedly mean you have to keep using the book to do that. Your literally his new toy and that is how Beth will remove the Last Dragonborn so you can play a sword singing Hoon-Ding avatar in ES6 probably. XD
you haven't set a signature for the message boards yet!
faramir77 posted...
However, I was walking near Whiterun at one point and a group of Imperial soldiers escorting a prisoner encountered me and started a dialogue which lead to them attacking me. I managed to free the prisoner who then encouraged me to join the Stormcloaks, which I immediately went and did.
I personally kill all of them in that group, be it for the loot (Imperials) or just because they can't properly fight back (the Stormcloak).
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Olld-Onne posted...
You have to side with Hermaeus to complete Dragonborn. All DLC is considered canon unlike the faction questlines. The DLC itself shows you how Hermaeus already trapped a Dragonborn in his realm.

Mora's a little blurry. Even though he acts like you're doing exactly what he wanted you to all along, and says you're his champion (regardless of whether or not you agree), you can technically complete the entire questline without ever agreeing to serve him (even giving him the secrets he asks for can come across more like a trade than fealty). And Neloth will tell you afterward that there is no lingering influence from Mora on you.

But you've literally and explicitly sold your soul to Nocturnal. You cannot finish the Thieves' Guild quest without doing so.

You're also bound to Sithis and the Night Mother, and may have a connection to Hircine (if you're still a werewolf). All of them seem to have more of a claim on you than Mora does.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...
All of them seem to have more of a claim on you than Mora does.

Pretty sure all the princes claim they claim everyone
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Some people like to simplify the dynamic as one group is racist and the other isn't but it's not that simple.

The Thalmor are the actual evil group that orchestrated the civil war in the first place, as well as the ones who created the racism (through multiple means) in the Stormcloaks to encourage the conflict (while the Thalmor are elven supremacists themselves).

The Thalmor only benefit as long as the civil war continues, it ending is to their detriment regardless of who wins.

The Imperials are knowingly suppressing the rights of and hurting the people of Skyrim at the Thalmor's behest because they believe their sacrifice to buy them some time is an acceptable loss to their long term goal of defeating the Thalmor, but the Stormcloaks don't know this, nor have the Imperials made an attempt to communicate this to them (regardless of if they would agree to that).

But as a result of that behavior the Stormcloaks have rejected the idea of continuing to be ruled by the Empire or supporting a government that clearly does not care about them.
YOU COULDN'T AFFORD IT!
Neither really. The Stormcloaks are a bunch of racists while the Imperials are under command of a different set of racists.
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'Stormcloaks'

Two reasons:

-The Imperials could have just let your character go with no questions at the beginning
-I don't like the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks don't like the Thalmor

I never got far into the main story or that particular plotline, so I don't know who the thalmor are, or which side is better in the end, but the stormcloaks didn't try to execute me for no reason, so I sided with them.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me, and there was no one left to speak out for me
The Imperials are the example of bureaucracy left unchecked and a military stretched too thin. The Stormcloaks are a bunch of short sighted nationalists who have valid concerns, but are misdirected and manipulated by a ruler who has his own self interest in mind.

The Imperials just want to keep the status quo because it seems to be holding the threat at bay for now, and the Stormcloaks are big mad that their culture is being suppressed by an outside rule. They don't care why it's being suppressed, just that they don't want it to be and whoever is doing the suppressing needs to die.

I wish there was an option for a mutual understanding and unification because either side winning doesn't seem to be a positive outcome. But if I had to choose, I feel like the Imperials would have the resources and direction to get something done if they just got their shit together.
PMarth2002 posted...
the stormcloaks didn't try to execute me for no reason, so I sided with them.
It wasn't "no" reason. You were caught trying to sneak across the border with a bunch of people they actually were looking for. Wrong place wrong time and the General didn't feel like it was worth the time to doublecheck the registry for your name. Most of the other Imperial soldiers actually did try to advocate for you.
Salrite posted...
It wasn't "no" reason. You were caught trying to sneak across the border with a bunch of people they actually were looking for. Wrong place wrong time and the General didn't feel like it was worth the time to doublecheck the registry for your name. Most of the other Imperial soldiers actually did try to advocate for you.
This.

Hadvar was clearly not happy to have to execute you, and General Tullius will reason that your imprisonment was a misunderstanding if you go to him after the fact.
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KalloFox34 posted...
General Tullius will reason that your imprisonment was a misunderstanding if you go to him after the fact.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that!

"Oops, water under the bridge, right? So you're cool with fighting for our cause, right?"
I feel like one of the options in the civil war quest should be to show off your dragonborn powers to both sides at the meeting and get them both to agree to following you to take out the thalmor. I'm pretty sure a late game dragonborn can single handedly take out their whole army.
Muscles
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ya, that could be an interesting twist on the 'neutral route' formula... what if you quested for Whiterun neutrality? Like, Skyrim independence. As a result you'd be on the defense end of a whiterun raid from both imperials and stormcloaks at different times; but if you win Ballgrowth hails you as a liberator and Whiterun becomes an independent nation state.
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Salrite posted...

It wasn't "no" reason. You were caught trying to sneak across the border with a bunch of people they actually were looking for. Wrong place wrong time and the General didn't feel like it was worth the time to doublecheck the registry for your name. Most of the other Imperial soldiers actually did try to advocate for you.


Where was it stated the Dragonborn was crossing the border with other people?
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PMarth2002 posted...
I never got far into the main story or that particular plotline, so I don't know who the thalmor are, or which side is better in the end, but the stormcloaks didn't try to execute me for no reason, so I sided with them.

Muscles posted...
I feel like one of the options in the civil war quest should be to show off your dragonborn powers to both sides at the meeting and get them both to agree to following you to take out the thalmor. I'm pretty sure a late game dragonborn can single handedly take out their whole army.
I don't think most of the characters in the Civil War storyline are aware they are being manipulated by the Thalmor, nor is it explicitly brought up in a mandatory cutscene. You the player are aware of the true nature of the Civil War because of the optional lore you can find reading things here and there about everything surround it's events.

I think there is a single line from one of the Imperial generals that suggests they are aware the Civil War is a ploy by the Thalmor but they decided the well being of the people of Skyrim was an acceptable sacrifice to their long term goals of defeating the Thalmor (as the Empire was also willing to give away almost half of Hammerfell to halt the war with the Thalmor in a "treaty", although neither the Empire or the Thalmor intended to actually stop the fighting forever, they were both just using it to buy time (although, the Empire had no actual plan to defeat the Thalmor, it's just something they eventually hoped to do, while the Civil War was an example of one of the schemes by the Thalmor to continue to weaken their enemies and increase their own power), given, the "treaty" heavily favored the Thalmor as they were the stronger force.

And for people who don't read the lore Hammerfell rejected the terms of the Empire's treaty to give away almost half their lands to the Thalmor, and continued to fight the Thalmor off without the Empire's assistance (causing the Empire to remove Hammerfell as a land under its rule as to not be responsible for not uploading the terms of the treaty), which they eventually succeeded in doing, although at great cost.
YOU COULDN'T AFFORD IT!
Revelation34 posted...
Where was it stated the Dragonborn was crossing the border with other people?
The opening of the game.
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KalloFox34 posted...
The opening of the game.

I think it's up for interpretation if the Dragonborn was "with" the other people in the wagon... they could have been gathered up from any number of patrols in the region before being shipped to Helgen
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KalloFox34 posted...
The opening of the game.
My impression of the opening was that the Imperials were looking for Stormcloaks arresting anyone in the area, they saw the player character crossing the border (no evidence of doing anything illegal), knocked him or her out, tied up and bundled on the cart with the Stormcloaks and the horse thief. The horse thief was not with the Stormcloaks and the implication is that the player character's first sighting of Stormcloaks and horse thief was on regaining consciousness.
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LonelyStoner posted...
Wish I had the option to destroy both, honestly

Choosing between colonizers and religious zealots made me not interested in the main campaign at all. Tbh I kinda think Skyrim sucks, and so does oblivion, but I did love Morrowind back in the day.
BADoglick to the Max!
GetMagnaCarter posted...
My impression of the opening was that the Imperials were looking for Stormcloaks arresting anyone in the area, they saw the player character crossing the border (no evidence of doing anything illegal), knocked him or her out, tied up and bundled on the cart with the Stormcloaks and the horse thief. The horse thief was not with the Stormcloaks and the implication is that the player character's first sighting of Stormcloaks and horse thief was on regaining consciousness.
Yeah, they were just capturing and then killing anyone who might be a Stormcloak.

Normally theft is not an crime punished by death.
YOU COULDN'T AFFORD IT!
BADoglick posted...
Choosing between colonizers and religious zealots made me not interested in the main campaign at all. Tbh I kinda think Skyrim sucks, and so does oblivion, but I did love Morrowind back in the day.
Are they really colonizers if the empire started in Skyrim? Talos was a Nord and is the one that took over everywhere else
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BADoglick posted...
Choosing between colonizers and religious zealots made me not interested in the main campaign at all. Tbh I kinda think Skyrim sucks, and so does oblivion, but I did love Morrowind back in the day.

But they're religious zealots in a world in which gods very much exist.
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BADoglick posted...
Choosing between colonizers and religious zealots made me not interested in the main campaign at all. Tbh I kinda think Skyrim sucks, and so does oblivion, but I did love Morrowind back in the day.

They aren't really religious zealots, they just want to be able to revere someone that is important to their culture. And the Thalmor are like, "No you can't! He's a man! Not a god!"

And the Imperials are like, "Hey man, we don't wanna rock the boat. Let's just let the Thalmor have this one"

TigerTycoon posted...
Normally theft is not an crime punished by death.

It sure the fuck is for the player character!

Also, he wasn't "just" stealing a horse. He was trying to steal a horse to get out of Skyrim. Whether that's legitimate concern for the Imperials is up for debate.
BlackOmnimon posted...
But they're religious zealots in a world in which gods very much exist.
Honestly, that's not the Stormcloaks' main problem.

It's more that they are essentially the fantastical counterpart of white nationalists.
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KalloFox34 posted...

It's more that they are essentially the fantastical counterpart of white nationalists.

Would it be okay if they were Dunmer?
Salrite posted...
Would it be okay if they were Dunmer?
No. Why are you asking?
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The Dunmer were very much just as racist in Morrowind. But no one talks about that, do they?
Salrite posted...
I wish there was an option for a mutual understanding and unification because either side winning doesn't seem to be a positive outcome. But if I had to choose, I feel like the Imperials would have the resources and direction to get something done if they just got their shit together.

Muscles posted...
I feel like one of the options in the civil war quest should be to show off your dragonborn powers to both sides at the meeting and get them both to agree to following you to take out the thalmor. I'm pretty sure a late game dragonborn can single handedly take out their whole army.

Interestingly enough, this is sort of touched upon in the quest Season Unending, although it only appears under certain conditions so I think most players are unaware, I've yet to play it through myself but may try on my next play through (spoilers on the link below obviously):

https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Season_Unending

If the player gets to the part of the main story where they need to capture a dragon at Dragonsreach in Whiterun, but you haven't gotten far enough in the Civil War the Jarl will refuse and the Greybeards effectively setup Peace Talks between both sides, just so that the Dragonborn can carry out his plan, and stop Alduin, etc.

It might have been nice if this could have been expanded slightly, perhaps into a third ending. A bit like the Minute Men ending in Fallout 4. Although the list amount of cut content for Skyrim is as long as your arm so who knows what might have been if the developers had been given more time to finish off things which were left half done/cut.
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OHJOY90 posted...
Interestingly enough, this is sort of touched upon in the quest Season Unending, although it only appears under certain conditions so I think most players are unaware, I've yet to play it through myself but may try on my next play through (spoilers on the link below obviously):

I don't think those conditions are all that obscure, I got that on my first playthrough because the Civil War questline was boring and I couldn't be bothered to finish it.
KalloFox34 posted...
Honestly, that's not the Stormcloaks' main problem.

It's more that they are essentially the fantastical counterpart of white nationalists.

Weird that the game was designed mid Obama era when nobody thought white nationalists were anything important (most ppl didn't know about them at all).
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I prefer stormcloaks win because it's the way the worlds moving. The empires dying so a new world order is forming. Presumably once free they will ally with other free people and unite against there common enemy.

Also everyone is racist, it doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of ingame reasons why they feel how they do. I kill pretty much every thalmour just because their thalmour. So I'm a racist to. Not all thalmour are elf supremist who want to take over the world and establish themselves as the master race, but they still should all die because some do.

I think the dark elves in morrowind are more racist then the nords in skyrim, so they kinda deserve a little self-reflection. Don't like being treated how they treat people.
caprontos posted...
. I kill pretty much every thalmour just because their thalmour. So I'm a racist to.

It's a consequence of most modern RPGs being power fantasies... kill everything.

Back in the day you'd get full XP and loot if you pacified an enemy, or negotiated peace with them.... but in Bethesda games even when an enemy surrenders they keep attacking
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caprontos posted...
I prefer stormcloaks win because it's the way the worlds moving. The empires dying so a new world order is forming. Presumably once free they will ally with other free people and unite against there common enemy.

Also everyone is racist, it doesn't mean anything. There are plenty of ingame reasons why they feel how they do. I kill pretty much every thalmour just because their thalmour. So I'm a racist to. Not all thalmour are elf supremist who want to take over the world and establish themselves as the master race, but they still should all die because some do.

I think the dark elves in morrowind are more racist then the nords in skyrim, so they kinda deserve a little self-reflection. Don't like being treated how they treat people.

Thalmor isn't a race though, it is a political group.
rjsilverthorn posted...
Thalmor isn't a race though, it is a political group.
The Thalmor all are Elves though, aren't they? I mean apart from the odd operatives. The Aldmeri Dominion may comprise of various types of Elves but they're still all Elves (well, Mer > Man being the whole reason they exist in the first place).
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Imperials. A Stormcloak victory would weaken Skyrim and make it easier for the Thalmor to take over. Plus the only way to romance Legate Rikke during Amorous Adventures is to side with the Imperials.
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OHJOY90 posted...
The Thalmor all are Elves though, aren't they? I mean apart from the odd operatives. The Aldmeri Dominion may comprise of various types of Elves but they're still all Elves (well, Mer > Man being the whole reason they exist in the first place).
the Thalmor are "Elf supremacists"
Hating them is like hating white supremacists
Hating white supremacists does not require hating all white people
hating Thalmor does not require hating all elves
The elves which are not elf supremacists are not Thalmor
(and Dunmer "Elf supremacists " are also not Thalmor)
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GetMagnaCarter posted...
the Thalmor are "Elf supremacists"
Hating them is like hating white supremacists
Hating white supremacists does not require hating all white people
hating Thalmor does not require hating all elves
The elves which are not elf supremacists are not Thalmor
(and Dunmer "Elf supremacists " are also not Thalmor)
Aren't the thalmor pretty much just high elves with some wood elves thrown in?
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Poll of the Day » Imperials vs Stormcloaks
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