the oregon trail is actually the first ever roguelike

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Poll of the Day » the oregon trail is actually the first ever roguelike
it predates both rogue and beneath apple manor.
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oregon trail came out in the may of '78, so it's also the first ever of almost everything
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71
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ConfusedTorchic posted...
71

right, it was just the Apple ][ version that came out in '78
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Oregon Trail got a Canadian spinoff called Cross Country Canada... we played it a lot in school
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I'd argue it's not really a roguelike because the route isn't randomly generated and is the same for every run.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...
I'd argue it's not really a roguelike because the route isn't randomly generated and is the same for every run.
This. Do you even carry over progress into the next playthrough?
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Krow_Incarnate posted...
Do you even carry over progress into the next playthrough?

Strictly speaking, that's a rogueli t e, not a rogueli k e.
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adjl posted...
Strictly speaking, that's a rogueli t e, not a rogueli k e.

tbf; metaprogress isn't genre defining
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for lites, it sorta is, because they usually want to facilitate a feeling of becoming stronger over time. not like genres have strict definitions tho
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Lokarin posted...
tbf; metaprogress isn't genre defining

It is subgenre-defining, though.
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ParanoidObsessive posted...
I'd argue it's not really a roguelike because the route isn't randomly generated and is the same for every run.

except no?

everything that happens from beginning to end is random and different each time, just like a roguelike

if you mean the end goal is the same, then that doesn't matter because the endgoal is the same in a roguelike lmao
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The map arguement is invalid- the main rougelike/lites Ive p,ayed are 20XX and 30XX, both of which have the same ten stages and corresponding bosses every run, with the first eight being in a random order. Everything else is random.
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In accordance to the Berlin Interpretation, a roguelike must not contain real time elements, and be explicitly turn based.
The Oregon Trail has real time in the hunting minigame.
Therefor, Oregon Trail does not match the definition.
QED
However, NetHack does contain real time elements (moon phase) and is considered a definitive roguelike
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The gameplay is still turnbased.
the berlin interpretation is stupid because majority of roguelikes aren't turnbased
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No, the majority of rogue lites aren't turned based.
That's for traditional roguelikes, which have been around way, way longer.
I'm glad this topic has followed the typical pattern of genre discussion going from "Haha, here's a quirky genre interpretation" to "Well akshully!" to "Wait, that's dumb because it ruins 90% of the genre" back to "Well akshully!"

That's why genre definitions are either very tight from the start or basically muddy and vague aside from one overarching sort of criteria. Nobody actually wants to hear a long explanation of why FFX is actually a basketball game because of Blitzball or how Skyrim is actually an FPS and not an RPG because true RPGs have x y and z. Even if the argument is somewhat coherent it doesn't achieve anything meaningful and its very annoying.
SomeUsername529 posted...
I'm glad this topic has followed the typical pattern of genre discussion going from "Haha, here's a quirky genre interpretation" to "Well akshully!" to "Wait, that's dumb because it ruins 90% of the genre" back to "Well akshully!"

That's why genre definitions are either very tight from the start or basically muddy and vague aside from one overarching sort of criteria. Nobody actually wants to hear a long explanation of why FFX is actually a basketball game because of Blitzball or how Skyrim is actually an FPS and not an RPG because true RPGs have x y and z. Even if the argument is somewhat coherent it doesn't achieve anything meaningful and its very annoying.
Wait, people say Skyrim isn't an RPG?
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SomeUsername529 posted...
I'm glad this topic has followed the typical pattern of genre discussion going from "Haha, here's a quirky genre interpretation" to "Well akshully!" to "Wait, that's dumb because it ruins 90% of the genre" back to "Well akshully!"

That's why genre definitions are either very tight from the start or basically muddy and vague aside from one overarching sort of criteria. Nobody actually wants to hear a long explanation of why FFX is actually a basketball game because of Blitzball or how Skyrim is actually an FPS and not an RPG because true RPGs have x y and z. Even if the argument is somewhat coherent it doesn't achieve anything meaningful and its very annoying.

Nah, basically what happened is a bunch of games came out that were roguelike-like, and then the definition became muddled. It was fairly easy before 2010.
SomeUsername529 posted...
Nobody actually wants to hear a long explanation of why FFX is actually a basketball game because of Blitzball
ummm ackshually that makes it a soccer game because blitzball is based on the Captain Tsubasa games on the famicom and super famicom
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agesboy posted...
ummm ackshually that makes it a soccer game because blitzball is based on the Captain Tsubasa games on the famicom and super famicom

I was about to umm ackshually this cuz I didn't see your comment, only what you replied to
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shadowsword87 posted...
No, the majority of rogue lites aren't turned based.
That's for traditional roguelikes, which have been around way, way longer.

lite and like are the same thing im tired of pretending they're different
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shadowsword87 posted...
No, the majority of rogue lites aren't turned based.
That's for traditional roguelikes, which have been around way, way longer.

Being turn-based isn't a particularly meaningful genre descriptor for roguelikes, though. The primary defining criterion is permadeath and an experience that gets randomized between runs. That core gameplay element of having to adapt to whatever randomness gets thrown at you without getting a second chance is what characterizes the subgenre that Rogue spawned. Restricting the term to only being used for turn-based games that utilize that concept adds pretty much nothing to it, and lumping all other styles under the same umbrella of "roguelite" makes little to no sense because the whole point of "lite" over "like" represents the fact that metaprogression options mitigate the extent to which the game's challenges have to be overcome with pure skill/practice (whereas being turn-based or not doesn't inherently indicate anything about the difficulty).

As an aside I'm not even sure I'd call "rogueli(k/t)e" a "genre," given how broadly applicable that concept is to a wide variety of more clearly defined genres. A game of pretty much any genre can be formatted as a roguelike, such that the descriptor tells you less about the sort of game you'll be playing than about how you'll be playing it. I tend to treat "RPG" the same way whenever questions of whether or not something qualifies as an RPG come up: It's significantly more informative to call Zelda (as a perennial example) an action-adventure game with light RPG elements (namely character progression and customization) than to argue about whether or not it's accurate to call it an RPG.

ConfusedTorchic posted...
lite and like are the same thing im tired of pretending they're different

The presence or absence of metaprogression is a useful distinction. Notably, in roguelikes with metaprogression, the game is usually designed to be virtually impossible to beat on the first run (with the intent that you'll empower yourself with the metaprogression to be better-equipped to handle subsequent runs), and some people don't like being arbitrarily gated like that. Others (like myself) like having something tangible to show for failed attempts. The distinction gets a bit blurry in that there are varying degrees of metaprogression (Risk of Rain's is very different from Hades', for example), and games are often advertised as just "roguelikes" and you have to dig a bit deeper to find out whetehr or not there's metaprogression, but the distinction does still have enough value that I don't think it's a problem that people try to make it.
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informational metaprogression doesn't seem to count, though.

For example, Sword of the Stars: The Pit is very much a roguelike but it does have metaprogression in the form of the recipe list; however this is purely informational since even though you do unlock the recipes to use in the menu, you can manually insert ingredients for recipes you don't know
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adjl posted...
Being turn-based isn't a particularly meaningful genre descriptor for roguelikes, though. The primary defining criterion is permadeath and an experience that gets randomized between runs. That core gameplay element of having to adapt to whatever randomness gets thrown at you without getting a second chance is what characterizes the subgenre that Rogue spawned. Restricting the term to only being used for turn-based games that utilize that concept adds pretty much nothing to it, and lumping all other styles under the same umbrella of "roguelite" makes little to no sense because the whole point of "lite" over "like" represents the fact that metaprogression options mitigate the extent to which the game's challenges have to be overcome with pure skill/practice (whereas being turn-based or not doesn't inherently indicate anything about the difficulty).

Which is why it's *actually* two genres spawned from the same style, it's a deviation or an evolution depending on how positive or negative you look at it.
It's also why the Berlin Interpretation is used as a measuring stick. It's not just it being turn based, but it's a major component. Randomized, permadeath, Turn-based, grid based, non-modal, complexity, resource management, hack-and-slash, and exploratory are all considered major tenants of a roguelike. Then you have minor tenants, single player, monsters having similar mechanics as players, tactical challenge, ASCII graphics, dungeons, and numerical stats.
https://www.roguebasin.com/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation

Not all of the traditional roguelikes have every single one, but the majority of them have the majority of these.
shadowsword87 posted...
Nah, basically what happened is a bunch of games came out that were roguelike-like, and then the definition became muddled. It was fairly easy before 2010.
It was easier because it was like 30 dumb PC-engine games nobody under the age of 40 cared about or even knew existed. Then Spelunky and Binding of Isaac came out and people started making games in that genre again.

Muscles posted...
Wait, people say Skyrim isn't an RPG?
Jeff Gerstmann said Bethesda games aren't actual RPGs on his podcast last week. I don't think its a completely incoherent argument but again, either strict definitions or barely explicable ones are the only way to classify stuff and videogames are not meaningfully served by the former.
shadowsword87 posted...
Not all of the traditional roguelikes have every single one, but the majority of them have the majority of these.

I like how Mystery Dungeon isn't on their canon list. Mystery Dungeon is a lot older than people think and is a type of roguelike, ... .... but I personally just don't like it

Ya, I don't like Mystery Dungeon-likes (Shiren the wanderer, pokemon mystery dungeon, that weird FFX-2 minigame, Izuna unemployed ninja, etc)
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SomeUsername529 posted...
It was easier because it was like 30 dumb PC-engine games nobody under the age of 40 cared about or even knew existed. Then Spelunky and Binding of Isaac came out and people started making games in that genre again.

The games kicked ass and there's a whole two new fancy games that came out I'll have you know!
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shadowsword87 posted...
Randomized, permadeath, Turn-based, grid based, non-modal, complexity, resource management, hack-and-slash, and exploratory are all considered major tenants of a roguelike.

Of these, however, there are plenty of games - both contemporary to Rogue and that have come out since then - that hit many or all of those tenets but not the randomization and permadeath. That means randomization and permadeath are the aspects that are unique to Rogue and contemporary Rogue-likes, which in turn means those are the aspects that are useful to consider in using "roguelike" as a genre or descriptor now.

Mostly, if you advertise a game now as being a roguelike and it doesn't have permadeath or randomization, you're going to mislead customers. If you advertise a game as being a roguelike that has permadeath and randomization but isn't turn- or grid-based, however, customers looking for a turn-/grid-based game will know not to buy the game by looking further into the sort of gameplay experience it offers (or it will have been advertised as an "action roguelike" or something like that that explicitly indicates it's not a turn-based game, because "roguelike" on its own doesn't indicate much about the sort of game it is and therefore I wouldn't even really call it a discrete genre so much as a broader descriptive term). Words mean what people agree they mean, and the majority of people agree that "roguelike" refers to permadeath and randomization more so than anything else.
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adjl posted...
Mostly, if you advertise a game now as being a roguelike and it doesn't have permadeath or randomization, you're going to mislead customers. If you advertise a game as being a roguelike that has permadeath and randomization but isn't turn- or grid-based, however, customers looking for a turn-/grid-based game will know not to buy the game by looking further into the sort of gameplay experience it offers (or it will have been advertised as an "action roguelike" or something like that that explicitly indicates it's not a turn-based game, because "roguelike" on its own doesn't indicate much about the sort of game it is and therefore I wouldn't even really call it a discrete genre so much as a broader descriptive term). Words mean what people agree they mean, and the majority of people agree that "roguelike" refers to permadeath and randomization more so than anything else.

Oh, I fully acknowledge that that's the current lingo and what the customers expect.
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I wouldn't say that's wrong. The Berlin Interpretation is so narrow as to be mostly useless as a genre. It's more suitable to define a "Rogue clone" than a "Rogue-like," especially where the features that were actually unique to Rogue have been adapted into so many other genres. Being "like" Rogue doesn't have to mean being near-exactly the same as it. Just sharing certain key features that it pioneered.
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lotta words to just say "this game did these things before this game that supposedly defined them"
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adjl posted...
It's more suitable to define a "Rogue clone" than a "Rogue-like,"
I think the most common term is "traditional roguelike", in that they're actually really like Rogue and not just halfways. There's still the occasional game that comes out thats definitely in the traditional style, like Caves of Qud or Unreal World (which is actually old, but it's still getting regular updates and has a Steam release now)

Traditional roguelikes adhere so strongly to tradition and resist change that I feel like we should have come up with a different term for contemporary roguelikes a decade and a half ago, but hey, the term's stuck now
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Another few newer ones are Cogmind, it's much more of a traditional roguelike, and Rift Wizard's fairly distinct enough from the modern roguelikes that it gets lumped in with traditional roguelikes.

I didn't mesh super well with cogmind personally, I probably need to give it more time. But Rift Wizard's great , running around and becoming a bork lord with dragons, hell yeah.
Cogmind is really good, btw
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Cogmind is the kind of game I'd probably have fun watching someone else play, it didn't really mesh with me either. Not that any traditional roguelike ever has lol
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agesboy posted...
Cogmind is the kind of game I'd probably have fun watching someone else play, it didn't really mesh with me either. Not that any traditional roguelike ever has lol

mmmm, maybe I should make a video of it
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Poll of the Day » the oregon trail is actually the first ever roguelike